Heartland Flyer Versus Car Carrier

[Triley]

An emergency braking on a passenger train can lead to people falling or being thrown out of their seats with risk of injury.

An engineer needs to weight the risk between injuring passengers and injuring people who may be on the crossing. If a vehicle is clearly abandoned and a strike will thus not cause death or injury it may be wiser to not go into emergency but to do a normal safe stop.

What do you think the striking of a vehicle at track speed is like? Depending on the size of the vehicle, it still sends a jolt through the train, and I guarantee you that this strike would be enough to send people to the floor of they are walking haphazardly. Then when you factor in the potential for derailing (which this engine did), then it is MUCH safer to dump the brakes and begin slowing the train as quickly as possible.

 

[cirdan]

What do you think the striking of a vehicle at track speed is like? Depending on the size of the vehicle, it still sends a jolt through the train, and I guarantee you that this strike would be enough to send people to the floor of they are walking haphazardly. Then when you factor in the potential for derailing (which this engine did), then it is MUCH safer to dump the brakes and begin slowing the train as quickly as possible.

I was in a train in a crossing strike once and I didn't notice any jolt. The first I noticed that anything was wrong was when I saw pieces of debris flying past the window.

 

[Triley]

I was in a train in a crossing strike once and I didn't notice any jolt. The first I noticed that anything was wrong was when I saw pieces of debris flying past the window.

I’ve been in 2 on the Talgos, including the one that derailed one of the series 8s last month, and I assure you there is a jolt.

 

[MARC Rider]

An emergency braking on a passenger train can lead to people falling or being thrown out of their seats with risk of injury.

An engineer needs to weight the risk between injuring passengers and injuring people who may be on the crossing. If a vehicle is clearly abandoned and a strike will thus not cause death or injury it may be wiser to not go into emergency but to do a normal safe stop.

Those of us at the Gathering got to experience being in a South Shore train when a driver in a car decided to drive around closed grade crossing gates, and was hit. The car was demolished and the driver killed. He must have popped on to the track so fast the engineer didn't have time to apply any sort of brakes. After the impact we slowed down normally and stopped. After hitting the car, there wouldn't be much point in using the emergency brakes, for the reasons described above.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Depending on the size of the vehicle, it still sends a jolt through the train, and I guarantee you that this strike would be enough to send people to the floor of they are walking haphazardly.

I was in a train in a crossing strike once and I didn't notice any jolt. The first I noticed that anything was wrong was when I saw pieces of debris flying past the window.

Were you walking haphazardly as your train struck a loaded auto carrier?

 

[George Harris]

CALL THE NUMBER. Forget the jumper cable thing. If you, like most people today, have a cell phone, you could make the call twice before you could find the jumpers, get them out and get them on the rails. And then, how can you be sure that you have sufficiently good contact to actuate the signals? You just as likely don't as you do. Why do you think some lines have minimum axle counts for signal territory? It is because you may not get good enough contact with less. Given the much higher weight and larger contact area of the wheels on rails, attaching jumper cables and hoping it works is probably an exercise in futility, because it could well be they are doing nothing.

 

[Triley]

Were you walking haphazardly as your train struck a loaded auto carrier?

I’m defining “haphazardly” walking as walking without having three points of contact, and making sure to maintain a stronger grip when’s the brakes dumped.

And we only hit an unoccupied pickup truck. I can only imagine the feeling of hitting a loaded auto carrier would be much rougher.

Also, although the engineer does indeed need to make a careful decision, because of the jolt of the impact, I as OBS would prefer the brakes be dumped, as opposed to a normal brake application. If I hear the brakes get dumped, I know to be prepared for a rough stop and/or impact. I can stop what I’m doing, put down anything that could burn my hands, and hold on or be seated. If I’m by a PA, I also have a chance to warn any passengers to remain/be seated due to the upcoming hard stop.

 

[west point]

Very good advice. When I have heard emergency brakes or in my first case someone yelled first for everyone in the car to hang on.

 

[F900ElCapitan]

So I have a few things to add on this. I did see the damaged coach in Fort Worth and I drove up to the sight on Monday to look around.
1) Don’t fret, the crossing gate already had a new mate! But there was scattered small debris that wasn’t cleaned up and a tell-tale sign of what happened.
2) Not only should the driver have seen the grades on each side of the tracks and not tried it, he should never had been on this road in the first place. There is no industry or dealerships anywhere near. I did hear through FB that the locals are saying he took this road to get to 77 to avoid the scales on the freeway, but that’s just a rumor.
3) It was the regular coach (34087) that was damaged and not the coach/cafe. Lately, they have been keeping 2 coaches and 1 coach/cafe in Fort Worth with 2 or all 3 cars running depending on the day and load. I haven’t been able to find 197, but 157 was still on the train and did take some scrape damage along the side of the cowl. Currently they are using the two good cars and 815 was delivered on the next days Texas Eagle for the second engine.
4) So, the one question I have is, why was the train going to fast? I know the crews have to hedge their bets a bit so they don’t slow everytime they see someone/thing on a crossing, otherwise they would be even more late than they already are. But the tracks leading up to the crossing are straight and nearly flat for well over a mile. Just in the video, it shows 20 seconds of recording with the gates down and on top of the rig before the train hits it. I expect this kind of impact if the train was coming around a curve, but the engine crew had more than ample time to see the danger coming and at least be able to be much slower for a much lower impact, if not be completely stopped.

 

[Cal]

4) So, the one question I have is, why was the train going to fast? I know the crews have to hedge their bets a bit so they don’t slow everytime they see someone/thing on a crossing, otherwise they would be even more late than they already are. But the tracks leading up to the crossing are straight and nearly flat for well over a mile. Just in the video, it shows 20 seconds of recording with the gates down and on top of the rig before the train hits it. I expect this kind of impact if the train was coming around a curve, but the engine crew had more than ample time to see the danger coming and at least be able to be much slower for a much lower impact, if not be completely stopped.

I am wondering this too. The engineer should've seen the driver waving, and obviously the truck on the tracks. I feel that it would be ample time to slow down and even do a controlled stop.

The train was recorded doing 78mph very shortly before the impact.

 

[Ryan]

A mile sounds like a long time, but at 80 MPH you're covering that in less than a minute. Expecting to see a tiny person waving their arms at that range, understanding that the vehicle you see on the crossing in front of you (something you see all the time) isn't going to actually move out of the way, dump the air, and expect that to have a significant reduction in speed is wildly unrealistic.

Unless either of you are experienced engineers, I suggest that you leave the engineering to them and not try to assign blame to something you don't understand.

 

[F900ElCapitan]

A mile sounds like a long time, but at 80 MPH you're covering that in less than a minute. Expecting to see a tiny person waving their arms at that range, understanding that the vehicle you see on the crossing in front of you (something you see all the time) isn't going to actually move out of the way, dump the air, and expect that to have a significant reduction in speed is wildly unrealistic.

Unless either of you are experienced engineers, I suggest that you leave the engineering to them and not try to assign blame to something you don't understand.

I am not an experienced engineer and nowhere did I try to or actually say that, nor did I “assign blame”. I did hold a CDL for a number of years and am a career professional pilot and deal with high speed decision making every time I go fly. I also deal with monitoring and controlling my situation as much as possible during a flight. At the end of each flight we evaluate and debrief ourselves and talk about what we could have done better, it’s called professionalism. Not having this type of accident is better. I even try to provide thoughts as to why they might not have slowed down.

I believe I asked a very reasonable question and pointed out a few facts about the situation. A question that I am sure will be addressed by those investigating this accident and from which there might be some answers and or recommendations on how this can be avoided in the future.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I believe I asked a very reasonable question and pointed out a few facts about the situation. A question that I am sure will be addressed by those investigating this accident and from which there might be some answers and or recommendations on how this can be avoided in the future.

It is a reasonable question.

This is for trucks not trains, but you will get the idea.

Perception Time 1.5 seconds
Reaction Time 1.0 seconds
Brake Lag 0.75 seconds

So a truck traveling at 65 mph will travel 325 feet before the brakes are even applied and another 340 feet before stopping. Total stopping distance is 665 feet from 65 mph to zero.

So in this case you have the human fact and the physical stopping distance to factor in. Speed does not help in the perception, fast you go harder to spot issues. Was the engineer distracted by a drink, radio traffic, was there sun glare, or was there paperwork that he was looking at.

Forward facing camera is normal in trucking, and in railroading. The inward facing camera is a wish for investigators of accident. What was the driver doing before the accident? When did the driver reaction?

The same goes for airline crews. Black boxes are good, but investigators want to see more to better understand what, why and when things go bad.

Of course it smacks into the fear of invading ones privacy. Like you own that locomotive or that airplane. My employer safety boss even say that inward facing camera would only help the other sides attorney.

 

[Ryan]

The engineer should've seen the driver waving,

why was the train going to fast?

This sounds an awful lot like assigning blame to me. Too fast for what?

 

[Cal]

This sounds an awful lot like assigning blame to me. Too fast for what?

I see your point. Although I still do think they could’ve been going a bit slower as the actual trailer would’ve been clear to see, maybe not the driver.

maybe the other person meant so instead of to?

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I really don’t think that’s a term used anymore, but…

Also, the railroads don’t publicize the availability to trespass and shunt the signals due to vandalism, and yet here it is now found on the internet….Doing the legal thing of calling the dispatcher would be much more ideal.

Of course there is a good likelihood you could be in an area that has no cell service or for one reason or another you don't have a phone with you.

 

[George Harris]

I will skip quoting any of the suppositions and quesswork previously stated to simply say this:
The allowed line speed was 79 mph (due to train control systems mandated for operating at speeds of "80 mph or faster") and the train was not speeding. Note the reaction times and distances quoted by Just-Thinking-51 and increase the distance covered by faster speed, and this is to applying the brakes time. Don't know how much longer it takes the trainline to set the brakes compared to a truck but it is highly unlikely to be less. The stopping distance after the brakes are applied will be much longer due to the higher speed and the much lower adhesion between steel wheels and steel rails compared to rubber tires on concrete or asphalt pavement. From the video the train had obviously slowed considerably below its 78 to 79 mph speed by the time of impact. The speed factor in stopping distance is not a linear relationship either, if you are going twice as fast, your stopping distance from point of brake application will be four times as long. The generally stated stopping distance for a freight train going 50 mph on level track is one mile, and that is an approximation. It could be more or less depending upon numerous factors of track, loading, etc.

 

[F900ElCapitan]

This sounds an awful lot like assigning blame to me. Too fast for what?

I will apologize as mine was a typo that I missed. I meant to say SO fast.

 

[UserNameRequired]

…If I hear the brakes get dumped, I know to be prepared for a rough stop and/or impact. I can stop what I’m doing, put down anything that could burn my hands, and hold on or be seated. If I’m by a PA, I also have a chance to warn any passengers to remain/be seated due to the upcoming hard stop.

Is anyone willing to share what dumping the brakes sounds like in passenger areas? I am guessing a large release of high pressure air sound, but …? Is the pressure released down low near the wheel/truck area? Near coupler? Time lag before the brake actually start de-accelerating the train?

 

[rrdude]

Anyone see the Genesis lifting up at the collision? This could have worse, much worse.

You can play it at 1/4 speed on YouTube, I don’t think it lifted up.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

You can play it at 1/4 speed on YouTube, I don’t think it lifted up.

I just stepped through the video and I think the the flying cars/carrier made it look like the engine may have lifted up.

 

[zephyr17]

Is anyone willing to share what dumping the brakes sounds like in passenger areas? I am guessing a large release of high pressure air sound, but …? Is the pressure released down low near the wheel/truck area? Near coupler? Time lag before the brake actually start de-accelerating the train?

A sharp PSSSSST. It is generally loud enough to be heard within the car. I know that I heard it on the second level of a Superliner once when we hit a pile of rocks which broke the train air line, so the train line dumped pressure and the train went into emergency. The sound is air escaping rapidly from the car's equalizing reservoir when train line pressure drops suddenly (a less sudden drop results in a service application which isn't as noisy since the air is venting more slowly).

All brake rigging is beneath the car. Not sure of the location of the equalizing cylinder and valves on a Superliner, they are typically near the center of the car, but the sowbelly design of the Superliner limits the space available in the middle of the car.

The pressure reduction in the train line propagates at the speed of sound. Passenger trains are short, so all brakes are applied quickly.

 

[BCL]

Is anyone willing to share what dumping the brakes sounds like in passenger areas? I am guessing a large release of high pressure air sound, but …? Is the pressure released down low near the wheel/truck area? Near coupler? Time lag before the brake actually start de-accelerating the train?

Here's some footage at Ashland, VA from multiple angles with audio. I think it's just a couple of railfan webcams where they asked for permission from building owners. Some idiots crossed the tracks right at the station. The hissing sound is pretty easy to hear - in fact several times like little puffs. Is this a scheduled stop for #94? It doesn't sound like these guys understood that the train would be boarding from the side near the station.

 

[Triley]

Here's some footage at Ashland, VA from multiple angles with audio. I think it's just a couple of railfan webcams where they asked for permission from building owners. Some idiots crossed the tracks right at the station. The hissing sound is pretty easy to hear - in fact several times like little puffs. Is this a scheduled stop for #94? It doesn't sound like these guys understood that the train would be boarding from the side near the station.

It is a scheduled stop for 94, yes.

 

[niemi24s]

I bet the engineer bit a hole in his/her seat!