High Speed Rail at 200 MPH

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Joel N. Weber II

Engineer
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Messages
2,917
Location
Greater Boston, MA
The French TGV has plenty of 200 MPH track (the same speed which would be allowed in the US by FRA Class 9 track, which exists only on paper as far as I can tell).

I know on the east coast it would be pretty much impossible to come up with a suitable right of way for 200 MPH track without building tunnels which would be extremely long compared to any existing tunnels we currently have, but on the routes from Chicago to the west coast, are there significant obstacles other than funding to converting 95% of the mileage to 200 MPH track, keeping the existing track through cities? What does it cost to build 1000 miles of 200 MPH track on open reasonably flat land? (You probably have to factor catenary costs and the costs of building grade separations into that.)

The TGV operates on grades as large as 3.5% and 4%, which is one place where constructing high speed passenger track might be easier than constructing freight track.
 
...but on the routes from Chicago to the west coast, are there significant obstacles other than funding to converting 95% of the mileage to 200 MPH track, keeping the existing track through cities? What does it cost to build 1000 miles of 200 MPH track on open reasonably flat land? (You probably have to factor catenary costs and the costs of building grade separations into that.)
Well, I don't know the exact cost or comparison to lesser track classes, but I don't think it's as simple as choosing a nice, straight right-of-way and laying down a pair of rails.

I'm not a track geometry/MOW expert, so I'm not going to speculate on the different requirements (except to say that the gauge variance specifications and superelevation requirements and other standards are tighter, requiring more and more frequent inspections and maintenance--which equals higher cost). Plus, the rail may have to be heavier to handle the higher loads, which isn't exactly cheap when considering today's steel prices.

All I can say is that from what I've seen, even in areas with nice, straight tracks, railroads often choose not to upgrade their track classifications because of the extra expense. For example, the trackage through Vandenberg Air Force Base in California runs right along the cliffs above the Pacific Ocean. It's pretty dang straight track there and looks easily capable of handling 79mph trains (if not 90mph), yet the UP only maintains it to Class 4 standards and sets a speed limit of 60mph--and there's not a lot of difference in the specs between class 4 and 5 compared to the difference between 5 and 6, much less 5 and 9.

Read the CFR for track standards here. The requirements for high-speed (class 6 and up) rail start about halfway down. Some of the requirements get pretty exacting...
 
One oddity in the rules is that 213.365 f says that on Class 8 and Class 9 track, if no train has operated for 8 hours, the next train is limited to 100 MPH. But it appears to me that on class 7 track, if no train has operated for 8 hours, the next train is allowed to operate at 125 MPH. Is there some aspect of class 8 and 9 track that requires a lower speed than class 7 (and 6) in this case?

If a freight railroad's only concern is running freight, then there is probably no economic benefit to meeting the tighter requirements. And keeping freight off high quality passenger track may well help to make it last a lot longer. I was specifically thinking of laying new, high speed passenger track in the unpopulated areas, where this new track would probably not be used for long haul freight traffic.
 
I could talk a long time on this one, but probably should not. A new straight and level track cost about the same whether you want to run it at 60 mph or 200 mph. Grading, drainage, fencing, grade separations are going to be almost exactly the same, regardless. You just have to be A LOT closer in tolerance for the track. Like within 1/8 inch on everything. Practically, if you want to keep the maintenance costs under control, once you go much above 100 mph you should be thinking placing the track on a concrete base. Right there your cost has jumped say 20% or more, but it pays for itself in reduced maintenance. If you change directions, the curve radii must be very large, like 5 miles or more large. For comparison, a radius of around 4,000 feet or larger works nicely for 79 mph without requiring too much superelevation to cause you trouble with high or slow freight trains.

Yes, you can climb a 3.5% grade, and 3.5% is the SNCF maximum, not 4%, but even high speed trains slow down quite a bit if it is very long, and stopping or slowing on the downgrade can be shall we say interesting. Vertical curves are also long.

There are also more issues than just the ones that allow you to go above 79 mph.

It is not just 200 mph track, it is also 200 mph trains.
 
I could talk a long time on this one, but probably should not.
Actually, it's a subject I've been interested in and have been looking for some discussion on it from someone who's knowledgeable about it, so if you'd like to elaborate as much as possible, I for one would be a very interested reader!

I was working on some rail articles on Wikipedia some time back and tagged a section having to do with this subject as "needing the attention of an expert on the subject." If I could find said article and figure out what we needed to know (this was a good couple of years ago and I forget exactly where it was), there'd be a big audience out there for anything you'd like to contribute!
 
Given the nature of the beast, since I work for a company involved, whatever I say has to be said carefully. Also, there is the simple time crunch. My visits to these web sites is in the nature of relaxation. This one requires the $10 answer.

("Answers: $1.00

Answers requiring thought: $2.00

Correct answers: $10.00

Dumb looks are free.")
 
The French TGV has plenty of 200 MPH track (the same speed which would be allowed in the US by FRA Class 9 track, which exists only on paper as far as I can tell).
I know on the east coast it would be pretty much impossible to come up with a suitable right of way for 200 MPH track without building tunnels which would be extremely long compared to any existing tunnels we currently have, but on the routes from Chicago to the west coast, are there significant obstacles other than funding to converting 95% of the mileage to 200 MPH track, keeping the existing track through cities? What does it cost to build 1000 miles of 200 MPH track on open reasonably flat land? (You probably have to factor catenary costs and the costs of building grade separations into that.)

The TGV operates on grades as large as 3.5% and 4%, which is one place where constructing high speed passenger track might be easier than constructing freight track.
I protest the whole idea of a 200mph train. I do not want to sit train watching, feel a wift of a breeze and ask my fellow watchers, what the heck was that? Plus, even at 1/1000 speed, will my camera catch a 200mph train?

Slow Amtrak trains are good. They satisfy my soul. :rolleyes:
 
I protest the whole idea of a 200mph train. I do not want to sit train watching, feel a wift of a breeze and ask my fellow watchers, what the heck was that? Plus, even at 1/1000 speed, will my camera catch a 200mph train?
Slow Amtrak trains are good. They satisfy my soul. :rolleyes:
One of the most thrilling experiences I've ever had train watching was standing at a station while the Acela went by at 150 MPH. So I'd protest your protest! :lol:
 
I protest the whole idea of a 200mph train. I do not want to sit train watching, feel a wift of a breeze and ask my fellow watchers, what the heck was that? Plus, even at 1/1000 speed, will my camera catch a 200mph train?
Slow Amtrak trains are good. They satisfy my soul. :rolleyes:
One of the most thrilling experiences I've ever had train watching was standing at a station while the Acela went by at 150 MPH. So I'd protest your protest! :lol:
I'd protest his protest, too--I have a need for speed. :lol: I rode the TGV in France from Paris to Bordeaux when I was about 15 and the ICE from Stuttgart to Frankfurt when I was 17, so I've been spoiled. Acela between BOS and NYP was a great trip, but 150mph is just barely fast enough for me (though the fact I got a fairly lengthy cab ride out of it made it my best train trip ever!). So I'm all for developing more true high-speed rail in the U.S...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Go buy a 15 day rail pass, and ride the trains in Europe. If those trains don't stir your soul . . . you better call lost and found . . . LOL

As far as high speed rail and 200 mph in the U.S. China is doing it, Spain is doing it, Argentina is doing it, but we are not.

The Swiss just built a new tunnel under the alps so that they could have more capacity to Italy. Compared to this, building a high speed line from Chicago to Toledo to Cleveland, to Pitssburg and down to Washington D.C. is nothing. If a government wants to get it done, it can get done.
 
I protest the whole idea of a 200mph train. I do not want to sit train watching, feel a wift of a breeze and ask my fellow watchers, what the heck was that? Plus, even at 1/1000 speed, will my camera catch a 200mph train?
Slow Amtrak trains are good. They satisfy my soul. :rolleyes:
One of the most thrilling experiences I've ever had train watching was standing at a station while the Acela went by at 150 MPH. So I'd protest your protest! :lol:
I'd protest his protest, too--I have a need for speed. :lol: Acela between BOS and NYP was a great trip, but 150mph is just barely fast enough for me
As do I!

At my station in KIN, the AE does not stop, and just a mile or so north of the station is a 150 MPH stretch of track. So AE regularly passes through KIN at 110-130 MPH!

I've even been waiting on the track 1 platform for the (I forget) 9:35 train, and saw a train coming on track 1 about 9:31. (KIN has only 2 tracks.) I got my things together. It wasn't until it passed that I realized that it was an AE going 110 MPH! (The 9:35 arrived a few minutes later!)
 
I protest the whole idea of a 200mph train. I do not want to sit train watching, feel a wift of a breeze and ask my fellow watchers, what the heck was that? Plus, even at 1/1000 speed, will my camera catch a 200mph train?
Slow Amtrak trains are good. They satisfy my soul. :rolleyes:
One of the most thrilling experiences I've ever had train watching was standing at a station while the Acela went by at 150 MPH. So I'd protest your protest! :lol:
I'd protest his protest, too--I have a need for speed. :lol: Acela between BOS and NYP was a great trip, but 150mph is just barely fast enough for me
As do I!

At my station in KIN, the AE does not stop, and just a mile or so north of the station is a 150 MPH stretch of track. So AE regularly passes through KIN at 110-130 MPH!

I've even been waiting on the track 1 platform for the (I forget) 9:35 train, and saw a train coming on track 1 about 9:31. (KIN has only 2 tracks.) I got my things together. It wasn't until it passed that I realized that it was an AE going 110 MPH! (The 9:35 arrived a few minutes later!)
Seems I am out-voted. I must admit, I do like speed too, and there is a rush watching them pass by going *really* fast.... :unsure:
 
One of the most thrilling experiences I've ever had train watching was standing at a station while the Acela went by at 150 MPH. So I'd protest your protest! :lol:
If you liked that you'd absolutely love watching a TGV or a Eurostar breeze by at 186mph at Gare Haute Picardie on the LGV Nord, as I did soon after Eurostar service started.

And yes, you can get fine pictures at 1/1000 shutter speed. The platform is one track away from the main track.

Another place where I have seen such is at Fuji (AFAIR) on the Tokkaido Shinkansen watching a Tokyo - Hakata Nozomi zoom by at full speed, while waiting for a high speed milk run Kodama train there.
 
Go buy a 15 day rail pass, and ride the trains in Europe. If those trains don't stir your soul . . . you better call lost and found . . . LOL
As far as high speed rail and 200 mph in the U.S. China is doing it, Spain is doing it, Argentina is doing it, but we are not.

The Swiss just built a new tunnel under the alps so that they could have more capacity to Italy. Compared to this, building a high speed line from Chicago to Toledo to Cleveland, to Pitssburg and down to Washington D.C. is nothing. If a government wants to get it done, it can get done.
I completely agree! It will take the will of the people through thier Congressmen/women and Senators to make HSR a reality in the rest of the US. Unfortunately until the Americans really get hit in the pocketbook by the airlines they will keep flying. Gas is rapidly climbing near $4.00 a gallon and most people I know seem to continue driving like its $1.00. In other words it will take a long while before Americans will actually get off thier butts and do something because for most people there are two modes of transportation in this country: Air or Road and that's it. Govenor J.Bush in Florida dumped thier HSR project. Govenor Schwarzenegger dumped California's HSR attempt. These 'leaders' don't envision HSR in thier states' future. Illionis upgraded track and added quadrant gates south of Joliet for about 118 miles to allow for 110mph running but that project seems to have died. Even New York is having a hard time getting things going outside of the NEC. The Empire Corridor remains, (to the best of my knowledge), just as slow as the rest of the country.

The sad thing is the United States could easily afford to have the best high speed rail system in the world, it simply chooses not to.
 
Illionis upgraded track and added quadrant gates south of Joliet for about 118 miles to allow for 110mph running but that project seems to have died.
The technology chosen didn't work and now no one really seems to know what to do. There isn't really any money to see if they can try to fix what's broken, much less go down a new path. So I believe that everything is now back to the "let's study it" phase. :(

Even New York is having a hard time getting things going outside of the NEC. The Empire Corridor remains, (to the best of my knowledge), just as slow as the rest of the country.
Actually there are sections of the Empire corridor where 90 MPH running is permitted, and I think even a few short streches of either 100 or 110 MPH running.

That's not to say that the politicians in Albany don't keep talking the talk that we need both longer distances of those speeds and higher speeds. But NY doesn't have the money to do much of anything about it.
 
With 150 mph maximum, coast-to-coast service could average about 36 hours (with stops, restrictions, etc.), that is, leaving in the evening and arriving the morning after the next, a one-day-only trip. Even with air travel, isn't a day pretty much spent after the some 500mph "rocketing" by plane (and all the effects that could entail), considering the six-to-nine hours flight time and not mentioning delays?

As far as I can tell, 110 mph max. trackage would be the least expensive and most readily operable level of high-speed service with basically only signaling upgrades needed. The even greater speeds, especially 150-200 mph lines, would increasingly need the grade seperations and other fairly expensive upgrades mentioned by others. Grade separations, of course, would be very good for railways in general. Up to now, however, the politics have been against those kinds of upgrades being financed by taxes. If the majority can get that changed, great! However, the wisdom in offering up our railways to probably irretrievable, even more likely wastefully expensive and un-responsive political control is, to me, questionable. Railroading has been and is inherently so efficient a form of transportation that it, thankfully, can thrive even in the face of necessarily tax-subsidized, very expensive motor and air transport.

If speed just for the sake of speed is wanted, I don't think making general taxpayers pay for it is appropriate, especially non-riding ones unable to use the service for transportation, nor is making them pay for photo run-by trains! With many of AMTRAK's schedules-- not leaving right after work hours (about 6pm) for the majority of workers and arriving before work (about 6am) in the next large city about 300-500 miles away, at conventional speeds-- perhaps railfanning, photography, dinner or leisure excursions or very occasional vacation travel is all AMTRAK is for? That purpose is certainly not financially sustainable without massive tax subsidy--taxes from those who are not able to use the service for serious daily overnight business, commuting or even shopping or visiting travel. Nor does that kind of arguably frivilous purpose do anything towards the very real abilities of rail passenger service to drastically cut our fuel consumption, pollution, traffic grid-lock and increase the survivability of passengers even in the event of a major mishap.

So, if someone, or a few, can hype the majority into taxing all those who are unwilling or unable to avail themselves of the present conventional-speed service or, perhaps even the new high-speed service-- considering the massive bureaucracy that will be "needed" to oversee the whole high-speed rail project (a bureaucracy so expensive in itself that it requires most of the subsidy just to pay its high-salaried, credentialled bureaucrats)-- then we could yet only barely have twenty-four-hour coast-to-coast service (yeah, that's all 200 mph maximum speed would actually realistically give us, and it be a strain at that!).

Anything leaving one coast and arriving the other coast, even next day, at the same time of day as the departure, wouldn't generally serve most points at the most usable times (large cities every 300-500 miles or so apart every twelve hours, creating corridor-like yet nationally interconnecting through routes optimized for all purposes of rail travel). That would require a layover of one more night before departure since there being only morning departures for next-morning arrivals. Why not just leave conveniently in the evening and spend one day (at 150 mph) or two days (at 110 or, even 90 mph) between coasts. Maybe a new definition of "limited" service-- with limited stops perhaps only every 100 miles or so, which is what some of AMTRAK's current "limiteds" have in their schedules as inherited from the heritage railroad passenger services-- could be offered with the super high-speed trains. Still, I don't think anything greater than 150 mph service is especially useful. I think, on the whole, supporting the very simple yet very important re-scheduling I've mentioned would go a very long ways toward greatly improving our conventional-speed system--even when necessitating day-slower schedules cross-country to make it all work (which most logically would, incidentally making passenger service more mixable with frieght and not be greatly detrimental to the percentage of travelers that do currently go cross-country by rail)!
 
I'm not convinced a 200 MPH maximum would necessarily be that bad. If it meant a 150 MPH average, Boston to Seattle (just over 3000 miles by Interstate highway) would be about 20 hours. The French have managed to achieve a somewhat better station to station average with their 200 MPH track, so I'm possibly being overly pessimistic in estimating 20 hours.

Furthermore, the coast to coast time isn't the only consideration. If a particular traveler is willing to spend N hours on a train, upgrading from a 150 MPH speed limit to a 200 MPH speed limit probably increases the distance at which train travel is viable by about 30%.

I think if Amtrak had its own high speed track across the country on all the major routes, and a budget to buy enough rolling stock, more frequent schedules would absolutely make sense.

Are you arguing that we never should have built the Interstate highway system, or that we never should have lengthened airport runways to the point where they can safely be used for large jet airplanes? I'm pretty sure those projects were paid for with tax dollars. And just as maintaining high speed track to appropriate standards would cost money, so does keeping the Interstate highway system from crumbling.
 
The idea of HSR in the US is not to go coast to coast, (although that would be pretty cool), but as a key part of our entire transportation network. Leave long distances to the airlines and the medium to short to rail, (say 1000 miles or less), that way both systems would compliment each other. For example an international flight in that links to a high-speed train that connects to a local commuter service. Something like that for the rest of the US and it must be an affordable system so the average person can use it. As for paying for it well, we all pay for a lot of things we don't use in this country through our taxes. We get to pay our whole lives for schools that our children only use for a few years, then they get to pay for those schools too but I'm ok with that because it benefits the entire community, (as long as they are quality schools of course). Again it will take a true grass roots effort to get any real HSR network up and running here in the US.

Alan:

I've ridden the Empire Corridor a few times and I did not know that there were segments allowed above 79mph. Do you happen to know the locations so I can be ready the next time I ride through there? Are those segments Amtrak owned?

As for Illinois HSR project, it might as well be dead if its back to the testing phase. I already sent Senator Durbin, (our Amtrak champion), an email on this one. Let's see what he has to say.
 
I've ridden the Empire Corridor a few times and I did not know that there were segments allowed above 79mph. Do you happen to know the locations so I can be ready the next time I ride through there? Are those segments Amtrak owned?
As posted elsewhere on this forum, from a reliable source, but still unconfirmed by a second source:

A fair amount of the mileage south of CP125 is 90 MPH track with some stretches of 95 between CP 75 and CP 89. From CP 125 to CP 141 it's 110 the whole way (Albany station is at CP 142). There is also some 110 for about 7 miles south of CP 156 and about 8 miles of 100 south of CP 169.
I can attest to the fact that there are certainly streches south of ALB where the train is over 100 MPH, as I've heard defect detectors calling out the speed of the train I was on. But I can't confirm the exact numbers in the above post.

As for Illinois HSR project, it might as well be dead if its back to the testing phase. I already sent Senator Durbin, (our Amtrak champion), an email on this one. Let's see what he has to say.
It's worse that the testing phase, I believe that they are back to the study phase. :( If they were still testing and tweaking things to try and get it to work, I'd have a much greater level of hope.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
There was a story about Amtrak and high speed rail on NBC tonight! Very favorable, as far as the possibilities of rail travel, and basically advocated for more funding - they interviewed Kummant and a rep from NARP...
 
I've ridden the Empire Corridor a few times and I did not know that there were segments allowed above 79mph. Do you happen to know the locations so I can be ready the next time I ride through there? Are those segments Amtrak owned?
The 110 mph stretch is between Albany and Hudson. Even the LSL gets up to 100-105mph quite regularly there, making it the only non-NEC running LD train to hit 100mph. Seen it on my GPS. It is CSX owned track (Poughkeepsie to Albany), but maintained to the appropriate FRA class to allow upto 110mph. The Turbo's tested there at 125mph+ and were supposed to run in commercial service at 125mph before the whole fiasco unfolded.
 
I've always wondered, wouldn't Amtrak have something to gain from calling the LSL the 20th (or 21st) Century Limited? From a marketing perspective, I mean. They allude to it being the same train in various marketing materials (HA!), but is there some reason they don't call it that?
 
As for Illinois HSR project, it might as well be dead if its back to the testing phase. I already sent Senator Durbin, (our Amtrak champion), an email on this one. Let's see what he has to say.
It's worse that the testing phase, I believe that they are back to the study phase. :( If they were still testing and tweaking things to try and get it to work, I'd have a much greater level of hope.
I'm a member of the Midwest High Speed Rail Association, and we had a meeting this last Saturday. Our man in Springfield revealed something that positively gobsmacked us all: the State of Illinois has appropriated funds to buy the Michigan signaling system (which works -- IIRC, the Chinese railways recently purchased the same system), most of which came from the private aerospace partner in the Illinois experimental system in settlement of their obligation to get the CHI-STL service up to 110mph.

The only bar to the installation of the Michigan system on the CHI-STL route is that the Governor (Blago, the most popular Governor in IL history -- NOT! :rolleyes: ) will not release the funds! :angry: :eek: :angry: I freakin' kid you not!
 
My representative in the Massachusetts State Senate hosted a public meeting earlier this year about state budget issues. Someone pointed out that in Massachusetts, the standard practice is for the legislature to approve borrowing of approximately four times as much money as the state can actually borrow while maintaining a reasonable credit rating that comes with reasonable interest rates. They then let the governor decide which of those things to actually spend money on to keep a reasonably good credit rating.

I don't know if Illinois works the same was as Massachusetts in this regard, but if it does, it may not be fair to place all the blame on the governor.
 
As for Illinois HSR project, it might as well be dead if its back to the testing phase. I already sent Senator Durbin, (our Amtrak champion), an email on this one. Let's see what he has to say.
It's worse that the testing phase, I believe that they are back to the study phase. :( If they were still testing and tweaking things to try and get it to work, I'd have a much greater level of hope.
I'm a member of the Midwest High Speed Rail Association, and we had a meeting this last Saturday. Our man in Springfield revealed something that positively gobsmacked us all: the State of Illinois has appropriated funds to buy the Michigan signaling system (which works -- IIRC, the Chinese railways recently purchased the same system), most of which came from the private aerospace partner in the Illinois experimental system in settlement of their obligation to get the CHI-STL service up to 110mph.

The only bar to the installation of the Michigan system on the CHI-STL route is that the Governor (Blago, the most popular Governor in IL history -- NOT! :rolleyes: ) will not release the funds! :angry: :eek: :angry: I freakin' kid you not!
Wow! This is truly unexpected. The purchasing of the Michigan PTC system I mean, not the Govenor withholding the funds. This is good news! It shouldn't take long for Senator Durbin to find out about this and apply some gentle pressure to Blago.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top