Historical rail travel in US and Mexico question

[TaseMeBro]

I'm not 100% sure this is the right subforum for this question - so if a moderator wishes to move, certainly no offense taken.

I was doing bored late night Wikipedia browsing last night, which led to the article on Werner Doehner, the last survivor of the Hindenburg disaster.

He was a child at the time, travelling with his expat family. The article mentions that after landing in New Jersey, they had planned on continuing on to Mexico City (where they lived, and his father worked in engineering), by train.

In 1937, what would a rail journey from New Jersey to Mexico City have looked like? I'm especially wondering about the border "connection" - where it would have likely occurred, what the Mexican rail network was like then, etc.

 

[Willbridge]

The Missouri Pacific and the NdeM ran the Aztec Eagle through sleeper between Mexico City variously from Fort Worth, St, Louis, and briefly NYC via Laredo into the 1960's.

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track10/azteceagle195212.html
There were several less noted border crossings that required a change of trains.

 

[railiner]

The Missouri Pacific and the NdeM ran the Aztec Eagle through sleeper between Mexico City variously from Fort Worth, St, Louis, and briefly NYC via Laredo into the 1960's.

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track10/azteceagle195212.html
There were several less noted border crossings that required a change of trains.

Most likely they would have taken the PRR’s Train No.3, The Penn Texas, between New Jersey and St. Louis, which connected to the Aztec Eagle, and as Willbridge mentioned, did carry the thru New York - Mexico City Pullman…

 

[Bob Dylan]

Most likely they would have taken the PRR’s Train No.3, The Penn Texas, between New Jersey and St. Louis, which connected to the Aztec Eagle, and as Willbridge mentioned, did carry the thru New York - Mexico City Pullman…

Yep, I rode the Aztec Eagle several times to Mexico, never did the trip from New York, but did from St Louis, Austin,San Antonio and Laredo.

My last trip was in 1968 when you had to cross the River to Nuevo Laredo to catch it, and the Train's consist was Old Mopac Cars pulled by a NdeM Engines.

 

[TaseMeBro]

Yep, I rode the Aztec Eagle several times to Mexico, never did the trip from New York, but did from St Louis, Austin,San Antonio and Laredo.

My last trip was in 1968 when you had to cross the River to Nuevo Laredo to catch it, and the Train's consist was Old Mopac Cars pulled by a NdeM Engines.

Thanks much, and to @Willbridge as well.

I was curious was Mexican rail travel might have been like in that era, and that's enough info to get me started on some downtime-browsing.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Thanks much, and to @Willbridge as well.

I was curious was Mexican rail travel might have been like in that era, and that's enough info to get me started on some downtime-browsing.

It was a Very Widespread Network, with some Great Stations, and Equipment that ranged from 1920s Wooden Cars to Old American Heritage Sleeping Cars and Diners, and due to being Government Owned,was heavily Subsidized, which made Fares Amazingly Affordable, not just 2nd Class and "Chicken Trains!"

I was fortunate to Travel on most of the Routes that existed up until the Government Privatized NdeM, and even though most Trains were amazingly Slow due to stopping everywhere( the Crack Trains like El Tapitio from Mexico to Guadalajara were Rapido!)it was a great way to see the Country and meet the People!( Buses still perform this function now,especially in the Rural Areas)

 

[MARC Rider]

Thanks much, and to @Willbridge as well.

I was curious was Mexican rail travel might have been like in that era, and that's enough info to get me started on some downtime-browsing.

You could read The Old Patagonian Express by Paul Theroux. This is an account of a trip he took from Boston to Patagonia in the late 1970s. After riding Amtrak from Boston to Laredo, he crossed the river and then rode through Mexico to Veracruz, and then continued farther into Central and South America, mostly by train.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

This is probably off topic a bit, but a surprising number of passengers on the Hindenburg were Chicago residents, especially from the Edgewater neighborhood.

But more on topic, I noticed in the news today, an article about new Chinese factories establishing themselves in Mexico because of the free trade area. Along with the article was a photo of what appeared to be a quite nice new rail container freight yard (Neuvo Leon State, iirc) and I was wondering if this would increase both freight (unfortunately, probably more trucks too) and with potentially improved trackage, perhaps revival of passenger transport. Talgo de Mexico, anyone?

 

[Palmland]

I wonder when the Penn Texas and Aztec Eagle started. They were not there in 1935, according to the OGR. Then it would have been the Spirit of St. Louis to that city then the Sunshine Special. It carried a 10sec-2Cpt-Dr sleeper St.Louis- Mexico City along with a ‘Dining-lounge’ car.

I didn’t realize the through sleeper was gone by 1968. It was there in the spring of 1967 when I rode it from San Antonio. It had a great heavyweight diner and was my first introduction to Mexican food. The MP 10-6 was immaculate even at that late date.

 

[joelkfla]

You could read The Old Patagonian Express by Paul Theroux. This is an account of a trip he took from Boston to Patagonia in the late 1970s. After riding Amtrak from Boston to Laredo, he crossed the river and then rode through Mexico to Veracruz, and then continued farther into Central and South America, mostly by train.

There are many used copies of this floating around, including some for less than $5 incl. shipping on eBay. It's also available as an eBook on the Hoopla service thru many public libraries.

 

[Willbridge]

I checked the June 1916 Official Guide, and the Sunshine Special was listed as a new train. The printing plate was set up showing it going to Mexico City, but with no times shown. The date rang a bell with me for Mexican history and sure enough, the NdeM just had a half page with this message:

On account of disturbed conditions in Mexico and the irregularity of train service, the National Railways of Mexico has temporarily ceased to publish the usual train schedules.

The NdeM's U.S. Tex-Mex subsidiary continued to list a mixed train from Laredo to Corpus Christi, and several other companies and lines under construction were listed. The Southern Pacific de Mexico was running tri-weekly from Nogales to Rosario, about 60 miles south of Mazatlan, but the trip required a couple of overnight stopovers. Service was suspended south of Rosario.

Someone out there knows the answer: did a through sleeper cross the border before the revolution or was the service planned with the new Sunshine Special, but not implemented till things settled down?

 

[Bob Dylan]

I can't answer your question except to say that Mexico was in total chaos with Banditos, Self appointed Generals ( Villa,Zapata etc) with "Armies", Soldiers of Fortune and Foriegn Provocateurs seeking Influence and Wealth and jockeying to overthrow the Government, so I'd venture to say that there was no printed Time Table so as to not have the Train Robbed or Highjacked by the various " Armies".

Most of the Businesses were Foriegn owned ( remember the Railroads were mostly foriegn owned, most by US Roads)and Corruption was rampant in the Country with No-one in charge for several years.

This went on for over a decade till Strongmen Dictators killed Villa,Zapata and several other "Leaders" and the PRI ( the Party of the Mexican Revolution) took control of the Country for over 8 decades till the Corruption and the Cartels once again threw Mexico back into Chaos.

 

[Siegmund]

I can only add that in the Amtrak schedules of the mid-70s, when the old Inter-American continued past San Antonio to Laredo, there was no through sleeper, but the train from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City on NdeM was always advertised as a connecting service.

I am not aware of any other place where through cars ever crossed pre-Amtrak. Service to both sides of the border was available at El Paso/Nogales but I don't remember any connections advertised.

Mexico had a very robust and affordable network for a decade or two longer than the US did, then rapidly axed it. Very similar situation to VIA, really, with a litany of budget cuts and progressive retirement of ever-older rolling stock.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Very similar situation to VIA, really, with a litany of budget cuts and progressive retirement of ever-older rolling stock.

Although VIA at least kept a skeleton service, whereas when Mexico privatized NdeM the deal was that there would be no "Mextrak" any passenger service was out of the question. Except for the Copper Canyon route which was not NdeM anyway, and now some commuter service out of Mexico City.

 

[TaseMeBro]

You could read The Old Patagonian Express by Paul Theroux. This is an account of a trip he took from Boston to Patagonia in the late 1970s. After riding Amtrak from Boston to Laredo, he crossed the river and then rode through Mexico to Veracruz, and then continued farther into Central and South America, mostly by train.

Thanks very much!

I'll be on the EB in a few weeks from Seattle to Chicago. I've got a good amount of work I'll be doing on the train, but that sounds like an even better way to fill in some downtime.

 

[TaseMeBro]

I can only add that in the Amtrak schedules of the mid-70s, when the old Inter-American continued past San Antonio to Laredo, there was no through sleeper, but the train from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City on NdeM was always advertised as a connecting service.

I am not aware of any other place where through cars ever crossed pre-Amtrak. Service to both sides of the border was available at El Paso/Nogales but I don't remember any connections advertised.

Mexico had a very robust and affordable network for a decade or two longer than the US did, then rapidly axed it. Very similar situation to VIA, really, with a litany of budget cuts and progressive retirement of ever-older rolling stock

It seems the loss of passenger rail service in Mexico is perhaps even more a shame than here in the US.

Here, at least, many of the communities which lost rail access can still be reasonably, routinely, and safely reached by car.

As recently as 10-12 years ago, I've taken road trips in Mexico - twice all the way to CDMX and back. I can't honestly say I'd be comfortable doing that trip now.

Were a passenger train still available it's a trip I'd be very interested in.

 

[ehbowen]

I wonder when the Penn Texas and Aztec Eagle started. They were not there in 1935, according to the OGR. Then it would have been the Spirit of St. Louis to that city then the Sunshine Special. It carried a 10sec-2Cpt-Dr sleeper St.Louis- Mexico City along with a ‘Dining-lounge’ car.

I didn’t realize the through sleeper was gone by 1968. It was there in the spring of 1967 when I rode it from San Antonio. It had a great heavyweight diner and was my first introduction to Mexican food. The MP 10-6 was immaculate even at that late date.

The Penn Texas began in 1948 when the Texas Eagle was inaugurated as a coordinated streamlined service upgrading from the old heavyweight Sunshine Special. The latter continued operating for several years, but as a secondary train.

Actually, at first the NYC-St. Louis service operated under the Texas Eagle name but that changed to Penn Texas after the first month or two. The franchise was originally intended to extend all the way to Mexico City, but as I understand it NdeM balked at the price tag of the new streamlined equipment the US railroads insisted on. Hence the break in service at Laredo and switch to the Aztec Eagle moniker, but with through streamlined sleepers as far as St. Louis.

 

[railiner]

I wonder when the Penn Texas and Aztec Eagle started. They were not there in 1935, according to the OGR. Then it would have been the Spirit of St. Louis to that city then the Sunshine Special. It carried a 10sec-2Cpt-Dr sleeper St.Louis- Mexico City along with a ‘Dining-lounge’ car.

Good catch…I am currently cruising and don’t have access to my old ORG’s for exact dates, and internet too slow to download online sources, so just reciting from my fuzzy memory

To add to @ehbowen’s response, IIRC, the Penn Texas carried several thru Pullman’s to other points in the Southwest, as well as the one to Mexico City, in the postwar period when all the new streamliners were being delivered.

 

[railiner]

I can only add that in the Amtrak schedules of the mid-70s, when the old Inter-American continued past San Antonio to Laredo, there was no through sleeper, but the train from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City on NdeM was always advertised as a connecting service.

I am not aware of any other place where through cars ever crossed pre-Amtrak. Service to both sides of the border was available at El Paso/Nogales but I don't remember any connections advertised.

Didn’t the SP run some thru cars to San Diego at one time over its SD&AE subsidiary thru Mexico off its Sunset or Golden State route(s)?
IIRC, their “Imperial” may have been the train…

 

[ehbowen]

Didn’t the SP run some thru cars to San Diego at one time over its SD&AE subsidiary thru Mexico off its Sunset or Golden State route(s)?
IIRC, their “Imperial” may have been the train…

Yes, they did. At least in the timetable I'm familiar with the Imperial dipped below the border twice: Once for fifty miles just east of Calexico, and then between Tecate and Tijuana (37 miles) on the way to San Ysidro and then San Diego (over the route which would later become the San Diego Trolley). But the only Mexican cities served were the border towns of Algodones and Mexicali, and the aforementioned Tijuana and Tecate...hardly Mexican metropoli. (Well, Tijuana is a decent-sized city.) I presume there was some sort of border formalities, but I don't have any details about them.

The Imperial - August, 1950 - Streamliner Schedules

 

[Siegmund]

Didn’t the SP run some thru cars to San Diego at one time over its SD&AE subsidiary thru Mexico off its Sunset or Golden State route(s)?
IIRC, their “Imperial” may have been the train…

Yes... what they didn't ever do, as far as I know, is put any through cars from the US onto a train from Mexicali to Guadalajara or Mexico City. In the last pre-Amtrak official guides, the recommended route for people coming from the west coast was crossing the border at El Paso (without any help from SP or NdeM.)

Theoretically, any of San Diego - Mexicali - points south, or LA - Niland - Mexicali - points south, or LA - Tucson - Nogales - points south could have been done. The rails are still in place today, even, but I don't imagine there will ever be through service again in Laredo either.

 

[user 1215]

I rode the Mexican system in 1991 from Monterey to Nogales. We were actually planning a through car from Longview, TX to Monterey for 1992 but it was never to be as Mexico killed passenger rail.

I was too young and didn't care at the time what I rode or equipment or anything like that. But it seemed to just be a hodgepodge of service and equipment and SLOW travel.

 

[Maglev]

I am not aware of any other place where through cars ever crossed pre-Amtrak. Service to both sides of the border was available at El Paso/Nogales but I don't remember any connections advertised.

When I took my first cross-country trip in 1977, there were connections advertised at both Laredo and El Paso, although the timing at El Paso was not as well synchronized as at Laredo.



(From timetables.org, copyright 1977 by Amtrak).

 

[fdaley]

Somewhere I have a 1947 New York Central timetable that shows the Southwestern Limited running in two sections, one of which carried a through sleeper from Mexico City to New York. I think it was a fairly short-lived service, as I don't recall seeing it in other schedules from that era. I'll try to locate it and post more details.

 

[railiner]

That makes sense, as during that era, the NYC
and the PRR were intensely competitive, and if one introduced a new service, the other was almost certain to emulate it fairly soon. The B&O was also, to a lesser extent.

Robert Young, then C&O president, was credited with advocating the postwar practice of coast-to-coast, and other long distance international sleepers, when he complained that a hog can go all the way without change, but people couldn’t…