My guess, and it is just that, would be no. But then I also can't imagine why or when you'd have a situation where there wouldn't be a trained Amtrak engineer on board to ensure that HEP was running. That assumes of course that the engine didn't fail so badly as to prevent it from providing HEP.
how many hours does a amtrak engerneer work
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Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
What if the only Amtrak engineer within a few hundred miles died on the clock?
(I guess in that case the Amtrak conductor would probably have a similar problem, though can't a freight conductor in theory substitute?)
(I guess in that case the Amtrak conductor would probably have a similar problem, though can't a freight conductor in theory substitute?)
Well if he had died on the law, they wouldn't send a freight engine out to move the train in the first place, they'd send a new Amtrak engineer out.
However, if for some really odd reason it was decided not to do that and by some miracle the freight CO had received permission from Amtrak to in effect send out a rescue engine to hook on, the P42 would still be running and providing HEP when they got there. It just wouldn't be moving since the engineer by law can't move the train if he's outlawed. I also suspect that there is no law that prevents that outlawed engineer from flipping a switch to keep the HEP operational. He just can't drive the train. So unless the engine ran out of fuel, it shouldn't be too big of a problem.
One other thought though, while not always the case, most times if the engineer has outlawed then it's a pretty safe bet that the conductor has too or will do so very shortly after the engineer. In that case the freight engine still couldn't move the train, since there wouldn't be a qualified conductor to give them permission to move the train.
However, if for some really odd reason it was decided not to do that and by some miracle the freight CO had received permission from Amtrak to in effect send out a rescue engine to hook on, the P42 would still be running and providing HEP when they got there. It just wouldn't be moving since the engineer by law can't move the train if he's outlawed. I also suspect that there is no law that prevents that outlawed engineer from flipping a switch to keep the HEP operational. He just can't drive the train. So unless the engine ran out of fuel, it shouldn't be too big of a problem.
One other thought though, while not always the case, most times if the engineer has outlawed then it's a pretty safe bet that the conductor has too or will do so very shortly after the engineer. In that case the freight engine still couldn't move the train, since there wouldn't be a qualified conductor to give them permission to move the train.
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Well, in this hypothetical situation, I would assume the freight railroad would send out a conductor as well as an engineer.
A few times I worked on a relief crew on the Alaska Railroad that dogcaught a dead passenger train. Our three-person crew (engineer, conductor and brakeman) picked up the train, and all three of us got on the engine (dressed in our jeans, t-shirts and coveralls) and proceeded to take the train to the Fairbanks station.
The conductor and brakeman remained on-board in the back to ensure the passengers were taken care of and the OBS staff were doing their job, but they didn't do anything with the movement of the train. We did it all from the front.
Although a BNSF or UP or whatever crew wouldn't be allowed to operate a P42 engine, if for some reason they did hook an SD70M or AC44W on the front and drag the Amtrak train in, I don't think it would be a problem to just have the freight crew (conductor and engineer) both handle the movement of the train.
(Now, it could get complicated--would they MU the engines together? How about the brakes--the freight crew would have to go back to the Amtrak engine to release the train's brakes...that's why this situation will most likely remain hypothetical.)
A few times I worked on a relief crew on the Alaska Railroad that dogcaught a dead passenger train. Our three-person crew (engineer, conductor and brakeman) picked up the train, and all three of us got on the engine (dressed in our jeans, t-shirts and coveralls) and proceeded to take the train to the Fairbanks station.
The conductor and brakeman remained on-board in the back to ensure the passengers were taken care of and the OBS staff were doing their job, but they didn't do anything with the movement of the train. We did it all from the front.
Although a BNSF or UP or whatever crew wouldn't be allowed to operate a P42 engine, if for some reason they did hook an SD70M or AC44W on the front and drag the Amtrak train in, I don't think it would be a problem to just have the freight crew (conductor and engineer) both handle the movement of the train.
(Now, it could get complicated--would they MU the engines together? How about the brakes--the freight crew would have to go back to the Amtrak engine to release the train's brakes...that's why this situation will most likely remain hypothetical.)
Rail Freak
Engineer
Were getting into all kind of cookie scenario's that will probably never happen, again any crew must by rules notify a dispatcher 2 hours before outlawing.
Two things happen at dispatchers desk he is gone figure out where that train will be in two hours, (siding or station) and get a crew from Amtrak to be send there.
He can relieve early, or wait till deadline, but it is his(dispatcher) job to get that train in clear and to get Amtrak to send a crew.
so no freight crews are neccesay, no legal mumbo jumbo ,no contract violations .
Two things happen at dispatchers desk he is gone figure out where that train will be in two hours, (siding or station) and get a crew from Amtrak to be send there.
He can relieve early, or wait till deadline, but it is his(dispatcher) job to get that train in clear and to get Amtrak to send a crew.
so no freight crews are neccesay, no legal mumbo jumbo ,no contract violations .
I can say with absolute certainly, that is true. I was on a train that had to stop due to that restriction.
I was on the 92 heading north, and we were running very late. Amongst all the conversations between passengers and crew (the conductor mostly) on all sorts of topics, we all knew about the twelve-hour restriction and that it would happen around 3pm.
And low and behold, 3pm came, and the train just coasted to a stop on a siding in the middle of a swamp. :angry:
And we sat on that siding.
And we sat.
And already being very late, this additional delay certainly didn't make any of us feel any better. :angry2:
I don't know if it is ironic or simply ludicrous that a relief crew was not already on-board. If us "stupid" passengers knew about the twelve-hour restriction, one would think that those in charge of running Amtrak might, just might, we aware of it too.
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A new crew if onboard would have relieved the original crew, the moment they stepped onboard, why?? , cause thier time counts towards the Hours of service Law the moment they leave thier home terminal.
Crews can not rest or be off duty on a train, even scheduled deadheading counts as Hours of Service.
By law a crew could not for example get onboard and sleep in crew sleeper to relieve a crew later.
A crew who outlawed could go to rest in sleeper but the rest does not count, only rest at their home or away from home terminal counts.
So in your case Walt the Dispatcher did his/her job and dropped the train in siding, its Amtrak who dropped the ball on not getting relief crew there.
A new or "relief" crew should have come on board, at the previous station, or for that matter, any of the past few stations. Then, when 3pm came, the "relief" crew would have only had an hour or two into their 12-hour shift, and the train could have continued its journey north.
The Relief crew would have relieved original crew immediatly so the(almost) outlawed crew could be send home or hotel to rest for next days shift.
In that case only 8 hours rest is needed, if they wait till they outlaw they require 10 hours rest.
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Yes--also because the vehicle that dropped the relief crew off would be the same vehicle to drive the old crew to its tie-up place. Only in rare circumstances would the old crew remain on-board, but it is always standard practice for the relief crew to either immediately take control of the engine or, in the event the train does a rolling pick-up (I've done it!), the exchange of controls is done on-board as soon as practical. Relief crews never wait to take charge of the train (it's pointless).
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
Rolling pickup?
Let say that both Amtrak engineer and conductor are on out-law and one of the freight crews with its locomotive hook up in front of Amtrak locomotive and pull them, who is charge taking care of passengers- freight conductor or Amtrak OSB? Imagine if someone is in health distress and one of the crew, either Amtrak OSB or freight conductor, call out on radio for help.
Does the conductor stay in freight locomotive or ride in Amtrak cars?
Does the conductor stay in freight locomotive or ride in Amtrak cars?
Amtrak OBS Gone Freight
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Railroads are "self insured." In other words (using your scenario) if a freight train collides with an Amtrak train then the freight railroad is responsible for its portion of the incident, and Amtrak is responsible for theirs. In your scenario, the freight railroad would take care of its equipment, the freight their train was hauling, injuries to any of its employees, all liabilties to their customers, and other liabilties to others such as surrounding properties damaged by the freight carrier's equipment. If the freight railroad owns the infrastructure then they would be responsible for its repair as well. Amtrak would be responsible for all of their liabilities involving their equipment, passengers (all liabilities to their customers involved), crew, their portion of the the clean up, as well as the other liabilties including surrounding properties, etc. And if Amtrak owns the infrastructure then they are responsible for its repair. There are many other varibles involved, too. Each railroad would be responsible for their portions of the costs incured by emergency responders (if any and there usually are), hazmat teams (if needed), among many other things. Each railroad is responsible to conduct their own internal investigations of the incident in question, and to cooperate with agencies such as the FRA, NTSB, and TSA among others within separate investigations in those agencies.
There are occasionally (but very rare) variations to these agreements, and a court could hold another railroad liable for another carrier's property, liablities, etc. But that is not the norm and rarely happens, and in any event (even in a court ruling) the carriers tend to stick to these "self insurance" agreements which have been in place in the rail industry for over a hundred years.
OBS gone freight...
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Rolling pick-up: rolling as in a rolling meet. The train slows down to walking speed (4mph or less), the conductor, engineer, and brakeman and/or fireman (if applicable) get on the equipment without the train even stopping.
Amtrak probably doesn't allow it (I think BNSF doesn't, either), but getting on and off moving equipment was a regular part of my job on the Alaska Railroad. We did it a couple times when picking up an outlawing train--we got on and took over while the train sped away from the meet. Not sure why we did this instead of stopping and letting the going-dead crew off (maybe there was a time crunch--rolling changeovers take much less time, as otherwise the train is stopped for usually about 5-10 minutes while the new conductor has to call the dispatcher and verify the track bulletins and train's authority), since the outlawing crew stayed on the train (usually moving to the rear unit or, in the case of a passenger train, to the passenger coaches) and therefore earned overtime (they're paid until they arrive at the terminal).
I'm not sure this would be terribly easy (or safe) with the ladder and door of an Amtrak P42 (it's much easier with a freight engine, which has steps near track-level and a deck wrapping around the hood), so it probably isn't done.
gswager: as mentioned above by a few people, I think the hypothetical would almost never come to pass. However, in the case you mention, I would assume the freight conductor would likely not want to deal with passengers (there's usually a reason freight crews work on freight railroads...) and would let the OBS staff handle everything. He'd most likely stay up in the engine (when our three-man crew relieved a passenger train, all three of us stayed up front). Of course, the on-duty conductor is completely in charge of the train, so he could legally do whatever he wanted within the rules of operation and laws governing rail transportation. But again, I don't think this would ever happen unless Amtrak were in truly dire straits--Amtrak wouldn't let non-Amtrak employees handle an Amtrak train for multiple reasons, but a big one would be that non-Amtrak employees aren't checked out on Amtrak's rules and procedures. Another one would probably be union rules--Amtrak's employees probably wouldn't be happy with outside employees taking their jobs.
In one instance where we dog-caught a passenger train, the Suburban that dropped us off picked up the engineer and fireman but left the conductor and brakeman in the back. As long as they weren't doing anything relating to the movement of the train, they were perfectly legal to remain on the clock and help with the passengers. Although by the time we picked them up, there were no more station stops and so no reason for them to deal with "official" duties like checking tickets, they stayed back there (probably mostly relaxing in the work room or staff break room) for the rest of the two-hour trip to Fairbanks.
A question for some more knowledgeable: on occasion, I have seen a freight engine or two on the front of an Amtrak train to help out when, say, Amtrak power dies en-route and replacement power is a long way away. While in a case like this, there is probably a legal Amtrak crew on-board (one that's not dead), I assume a freight engineer would be operating the controls of the locomotive. Who would be in charge? Would the freight engineer be under the direction of the Amtrak conductor, or would the Amtrak crew take a back seat (maybe even literally) to the freight conductor and simply advise him on things like station stops?
Amtrak probably doesn't allow it (I think BNSF doesn't, either), but getting on and off moving equipment was a regular part of my job on the Alaska Railroad. We did it a couple times when picking up an outlawing train--we got on and took over while the train sped away from the meet. Not sure why we did this instead of stopping and letting the going-dead crew off (maybe there was a time crunch--rolling changeovers take much less time, as otherwise the train is stopped for usually about 5-10 minutes while the new conductor has to call the dispatcher and verify the track bulletins and train's authority), since the outlawing crew stayed on the train (usually moving to the rear unit or, in the case of a passenger train, to the passenger coaches) and therefore earned overtime (they're paid until they arrive at the terminal).
I'm not sure this would be terribly easy (or safe) with the ladder and door of an Amtrak P42 (it's much easier with a freight engine, which has steps near track-level and a deck wrapping around the hood), so it probably isn't done.
gswager: as mentioned above by a few people, I think the hypothetical would almost never come to pass. However, in the case you mention, I would assume the freight conductor would likely not want to deal with passengers (there's usually a reason freight crews work on freight railroads...) and would let the OBS staff handle everything. He'd most likely stay up in the engine (when our three-man crew relieved a passenger train, all three of us stayed up front). Of course, the on-duty conductor is completely in charge of the train, so he could legally do whatever he wanted within the rules of operation and laws governing rail transportation. But again, I don't think this would ever happen unless Amtrak were in truly dire straits--Amtrak wouldn't let non-Amtrak employees handle an Amtrak train for multiple reasons, but a big one would be that non-Amtrak employees aren't checked out on Amtrak's rules and procedures. Another one would probably be union rules--Amtrak's employees probably wouldn't be happy with outside employees taking their jobs.
In one instance where we dog-caught a passenger train, the Suburban that dropped us off picked up the engineer and fireman but left the conductor and brakeman in the back. As long as they weren't doing anything relating to the movement of the train, they were perfectly legal to remain on the clock and help with the passengers. Although by the time we picked them up, there were no more station stops and so no reason for them to deal with "official" duties like checking tickets, they stayed back there (probably mostly relaxing in the work room or staff break room) for the rest of the two-hour trip to Fairbanks.
A question for some more knowledgeable: on occasion, I have seen a freight engine or two on the front of an Amtrak train to help out when, say, Amtrak power dies en-route and replacement power is a long way away. While in a case like this, there is probably a legal Amtrak crew on-board (one that's not dead), I assume a freight engineer would be operating the controls of the locomotive. Who would be in charge? Would the freight engineer be under the direction of the Amtrak conductor, or would the Amtrak crew take a back seat (maybe even literally) to the freight conductor and simply advise him on things like station stops?
Amtrak OBS Gone Freight
OBS Chief
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I'll tackle this one the best I can. I think I understand your question. As to what always happens, there are way too many scenarios which can be different!
I am employed by CSXT. I have not heard being called out to to rescue an Amtrak train per se as Amtrak takes care of that business on their own with their own crews, mostly. I am sure it can and has happened, but not much. Now I have heard of being called to pilot an Amtrak over a route where the Amtrak crew is not qualified on such as in a reroute. I just missed being called to pilot train #91 via the Jesup Sub (down the old route via Jesup-Waycross-Folkston in GA) last winter during some heavy brush fires down that way. The guy ahead of me on the board got stuck with that one, but he wasn't needed after they got to Folkston as the regular Amtrak crew (who stayed on the train in that case) would be back in their qualified territory. In that case he rode in the engine with his engineer.
I'll have to check my CSX operating rules books on this, but I don't remember anything telling me as a freight conductor that I would have to ride in the back of the train with the passengers and Amtrak OBS crew. Amtrak OBS crews are still responsible for the comfort and safety of the passengers for their entire tour of duty! The OBS folks are their own separate department which answers to their own management, and works with the on duty conductor (and assistant conductor) of the train with the understanding he/she is in charge of the train, its movement, and those aboard. But back to my freight conductor piloting an Amtrak train scenario. Personally, I would ride back there (instead of the engine) as I would be the conductor in charge of that train's movement during my tour of duty. And those folks back there are part of my responsiblity as well. Also on another note, it would be in my best interest to ride in the back of the Amtrak train, as Amtrak in such a case would be a "customer" of CSX! And Amtrak operating rules require their own conductors to ride in the rear portion of the train. So I would have to say that would apply to me, too. And I believe CSX would expect me to act accordingly in the best interest of the customer being they can hold me accountable for anything happening back there! And Amtrak wanting the acting conductor in the rear is one of their own operating rules as well as a very reasonable request as CSX's customer! So I would definitely would not be in the engine of the Amtrak train I was called to pilot or rescue as I would need to protect my job first and foremost, but it would be in good faith and service as well (though I don't always feel that peachy).
OBS gone freight...
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Amtrak OBS Gone Freight
OBS Chief
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Wow Alaska RR allows y'all to get on and off moving equipment! Anyway, CSX no longer allows us to do that unless is is an extreme emergency (at least according to the rules).
Anyway, an answer to your question the best I can....
That scenario at CSX would fall under the "attachment of/working with another crew" rules. At CSX, each crew is required to conduct a job briefing of what is to occur and what each crew members' part in the operation. Upon reaching the other crew (such as the crew on the Amtrak train), both train's crews are to stop and conduct another job briefing to update everyone and either get onto or to stay on the same page. I won't get into all those details, but I would say at the time of any job briefing between the two train's crews, it could be agreed upon who is going to be the in charge conductor! I would say in the best case scenario if it is the Amtrak train that is needing the assistance, then the Amtrak conductor should be in charge of the now combined train's movement being the Amtrak train is his/her train (as he/she is more qualified on that equipment), and the freight conductor is not concerned with any freight equipment other than the freight locos in use (which the freight engineer is in charge of except their actual movement). The freight engineer should of course maintain his position IMO, but it must be noted that the passenger engineer may be better qualified in passenger train handling. But both of those engineers of course take their direction from whoever the in-charge conductor is! So I would venture to say unless there is something in the rules I have missed, everything could be agreed upon when both the freight helpers and the Amtrak train intiate contact with each other and perform their job briefing of who is to do what, when, and how.
Hey Had8ley, if you read this what's your take on this?
OBS gone freight...
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Thanks for the reply! Yup, we could get on and off moving equipment up to 4mph. (In the olden days, some guys used to do it up to 10mph! Can't imagine that...)
I can't imagine how much less efficient yard switching would be if that were prohibited....
amtrakwolverine
Engineer
im just saying that if a crew goes over the hours there allowed to work and there sitting on a main line or over a switch blocking both lanes of traffic and its going to take 2-3 hours for the replacement crew to get there. isn't the host railroad going to tow the train out of the way so they can continue to make money instead of losing itwhile amtrak sits without a working crew.
Well, hopefully you've taken away from everything posted here two important facts:
1. There are a lot of rules and regulations that don't make it quite that easy, and
2. Unless things go reeeeaaaaallllly wacky, this should never happen: crews notify train dispatchers two hours before they expire (which is both communicated to any other dispatchers involved with that train and also communicated to Amtrak's crew dispatching), so when the time gets close, the dispatcher knows to stick the train in a siding or otherwise prevent it from blocking traffic.
So, the case you're wondering about should never happen, thereby making this whole discussion almost irrelevant (although an interesting exercise in interpreting rules and procedures!).
Also, keep in mind that railroads do have the right to make their crews work over their hours of service in an emergency--they would be subject to some quite hefty fines, and if it happened too much, the government would likely take some pretty harsh action against them, but if absolutely necessary, a crew could continue operating a train until it is in a safe, clear place. (Mostly, this is an option used only in a situation involving the safety of the train or the crew--say, to move a train off of the middle of a trestle or the middle of a tunnel.)
1. There are a lot of rules and regulations that don't make it quite that easy, and
2. Unless things go reeeeaaaaallllly wacky, this should never happen: crews notify train dispatchers two hours before they expire (which is both communicated to any other dispatchers involved with that train and also communicated to Amtrak's crew dispatching), so when the time gets close, the dispatcher knows to stick the train in a siding or otherwise prevent it from blocking traffic.
So, the case you're wondering about should never happen, thereby making this whole discussion almost irrelevant (although an interesting exercise in interpreting rules and procedures!).
Also, keep in mind that railroads do have the right to make their crews work over their hours of service in an emergency--they would be subject to some quite hefty fines, and if it happened too much, the government would likely take some pretty harsh action against them, but if absolutely necessary, a crew could continue operating a train until it is in a safe, clear place. (Mostly, this is an option used only in a situation involving the safety of the train or the crew--say, to move a train off of the middle of a trestle or the middle of a tunnel.)
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That makes sense whenever there's a freight loco hauling in front of disabled Amtrak locomotive and the Amtrak conductor(s) is/are still on duty.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
I imagine it still happens in many situations, unless the boss is watching or people are "working safely".
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