Idea to Improve Amtrak Canadian Service

[Doug]

On Amtrak Cascades Amtrak serves only 1 Canadian city (Vancouver, BC). But on Maple Leaf and Adirondack Amtrak serves multiple Canadian cities on each route. Wouldn't serving 1 Canadian city on each route make customs and immigration much easier? You can have pre-clearance facilities in Toronto and Montreal stations (like in Vancouver, BC) so passengers can get cleared for the USA before getting on the train so it will save a lot of time. And Canadian customs will at that station too.

On Maple Leaf Amtrak serves a few Canadian cities before it gets to Toronto. But these cities are also served by Via Rail and Toronto suburban rail (GO Transit). So why not just serve Toronto Union Station and let passengers transfer there to GO trains to get to their final destinations? Amtrak also serves Niagara Falls Ontario which is just a few blocks from Niagara Falls USA, do they really need to serve both stations?

Adirondack is the same with service to Saint-Lambert, Quebec which is just a few miles from Montreal and Saint-Lambert is also served by Montreal's suburban rail. Again, why not just serve Montreal Central Station and let the passengers going to Saint-Lambert transfer at Montreal?

Am I missing something? I guess there's probably contracts somewhere telling Amtrak to stop at all those Canadian cities.

 

[jis]

On Maple Leaf Amtrak serves a few Canadian cities before it gets to Toronto. But these cities are also served by Via Rail and Toronto suburban rail (GO Transit). So why not just serve Toronto Union Station and let passengers transfer there to GO trains to get to their final destinations? Amtrak also serves Niagara Falls Ontario which is just a few blocks from Niagara Falls USA, do they really need to serve both stations?

The Maple Leaf is a VIA train from Toronto to Niagara Falls ON. It would be odd for a VIA train not to serve VIA stations.

Adirondack is the same with service to Saint-Lambert, Quebec which is just a few miles from Montreal and Saint-Lambert is also served by Montreal's suburban rail. Again, why not just serve Montreal Central Station and let the passengers going to Saint-Lambert transfer at Montreal?

There is a proposal in the works along thos lines for the Adirondack.

 

[WICT106]

I propose to add service between Chicago & Winnipeg, along the route of the Builder through IL, WI, and MN. I don't know how big the market would be, and there would be the additional drawback of floods along the Red River valley of the North.

 

[Tracktwentynine]

I don't think stopping at Canadian cities is such a major problem. I agree that the Cascades' situation in Vancouver makes a lot of sense - for that route. It might make sense for the Adirondack, as well. But the Maple Leaf serves quite a few places - which adds to the travel market. I mean, if you're going from NYP to Niagara Falls, Ontario, it wouldn't make sense to go all the way to Toronto and then turn around to run over the same rails almost back to the border.

I think the focus should be on speeding up the trains and increasing frequency.

One cross-border service I would like to see resurrected is the International Limited (canceled in 2004). A train from Chicago to Toronto makes a lot of sense, because Chicago is the hub of the Amtrak network, and a connection to Canada's Corridor service would open up a large travel market.

The last full year it ran (the 2003 schedule) had it leaving Chicago at 9:40A and arriving in Toronto at 11:27P. The other direction departed Toronto at 6:35A and arrived in Chicago at 5:55P. Apparently, the border crossing issue was a major factor in the cancellation.

 

[the_traveler]

As said, the Maple Leaf is a VIA Rail train once it crosses the border (and is operated by VIA Rail), so do you subject Canadian Citizens to ride a VIA Rail Train between 2 points in Canada!

As I recall, the International was the same situation (operated by VIA Rail in Canada)!

I doubt many US Citizens would be happy to go thru Canadian Customs when they're riding from Chicago to Port Huron, MI on an Amtrak train. Likewise I don't think many Canadian Citizens would be happy to go thru US Customs when traveling from Toronto to London, ON or Toronto to Niagara Falls, ON on a Via train!

As far as Niagara Falls, NY and Niagara Falls, ON "... being only a few blocks apart ...", that may be true at the River and Falls, but not at the train stations!

The Niagara Falls, NY train station is a few MILES from the Falls!

 

[NS VIA Fan]

I doubt many US Citizens would be happy to go thru Canadian Customs when they're riding from Chicago to Port Huron, MI on an Amtrak train. Likewise I don't think many Canadian Citizens would be happy to go thru US Customs when traveling from Toronto to London, ON or Toronto to Niagara Falls, ON on a Via train!

In pre-Amtrak times, if you were travelling between Detroit and New York City, your train probably went through Canada. There were hundreds of passengers a day…….you got a cursory inspection from US and Canadian Customs or were just left alone. Amtrak revived this route for a few years in the 70s: The Empire State Express and the Niagara Rainbow.

Canadian Pacific (& later VIA) had a similar route that passed through the US between Montreal-Saint John-Halifax……the Atlantic Limited which lasted until 1994.

Oh how simple things were pre 9-11!

 

[jis]

In pre-Amtrak times, if you were travelling between Detroit and New York City, your train probably went through Canada. There were hundreds of passengers a day…….you got a cursory inspection from US and Canadian Customs or were just left alone. Amtrak revived this route for a few years in the ‘70s: The Empire State Express and the Niagara Rainbow.

Canadian Pacific (& later VIA) had a similar route that passed through the US between Montreal-Saint John-Halifax……the Atlantic Limited which lasted until 1994.

Indeed!

I actually wonder what it will take to get a Schengen-like arrangement between the US and Canada. Given how close the two otherwise are, it would make a lot of sense. But I guess their immigration policies and human rights policies are so vastly different that there is no hope in the near future.

As for Detroit - New York service, for a while there was the Toledo - Detroit train that connected with the LSL. Seems like that would be the easiest way to re-establish train service on that route again.

As for the border at Cantic/Le Colle, it looks like Quebec/Vermont/New York are again starting to look at extending the Vermonter into Canada via Cantic. As part of that they are also talking of eliminating the St. Lambert stop for the Adirondack and moving Canadian C&I and American I for both to Montreal provided of course they can find space for such facilities at Gare Centrale. I am sure US CBP will insist on collecting their little customs forms at Rouses' Point and St. Albans, no matter what else is done at Montreal.

 

[the_traveler]

I doubt many US Citizens would be happy to go thru Canadian Customs when they're riding from Chicago to Port Huron, MI on an Amtrak train. Likewise I don't think many Canadian Citizens would be happy to go thru US Customs when traveling from Toronto to London, ON or Toronto to Niagara Falls, ON on a Via train!

In pre-Amtrak times, if you were travelling between Detroit and New York City, your train probably went through Canada. There were hundreds of passengers a day…….you got a cursory inspection from US and Canadian Customs or were just left alone. Amtrak revived this route for a few years in the '70s: The Empire State Express and the Niagara Rainbow.

On those trains, if you were going from NYS to Detroit, you were seated in certain cars. Then the doors were locked to the other part of the train, those getting on or off in Canada had to go thru Customs. However, those going thru did not, as this was "US land"! Thus the train (even though operated by NYC or Amtrak) comprised a US section and a Canadian section. Those in the US section officially never left the US!

Much like going to the say Spanish Embassy is "Spanish land"!

 

[NS VIA Fan]

On those trains, if you were going from NYS to Detroit, you were seated in certain cars. Then the doors were locked to the other part of the train, those getting on or off in Canada had to go thru Customs. However, those going thru did not, as this was "US land"! Thus the train (even though operated by NYC or Amtrak) comprised a US section and a Canadian section. Those in the US section officially never left the US!

Much like going to the say Spanish Embassy is "Spanish land"!

No, not really US land like an Embassy......you Were in Canada and still subject to inspection depending on the Canadian Customs Officer. But mostly sleeping car passengers were left along and the coaches would get a cursory inspection.

I was on Amtraks Niagara Rainbow several times. And again, there were occasions only those getting off in Canada were inspected and other times, everyone was.

And the Atlantic.....There were different procedures in handling it over the years. When it was a Canadian Pacific operated train usually only the coach passengers were inspected by US Customs at the border and sleeping car passengers were usually just left alone. Anyone boarding the train in Maine was inspected by Canadian Customs at Magantic, Quebec or McAdam, New Brunswick when it crossed back into Canada. This was the same procedure when VIA took over and extended the Atlantic through to Halifax in Oct. 1979.

The Atlantic was first discontinued in Nov. 1981 but reinstated in June 1985......and now there were a whole new set of rules: US Customs and the INS insisted everyone would be inspected. Even the Sleeping Car passengers were wakened eastbound at 3amET in Jackman, Maine. Westbound wasnt as bad: 9pmET (10pmAT) at Vanceboro. The trains were running long and full so there were major delays.

The restored Atlantic was only back a short time before people were calling for it to rerouted via Edmundston, New Brunswick to avoid crossing the US border. Passengers were switching to the Ocean to escape the hassle from US officials even if they had to change trains and wait a couple of hours in Moncton.

I was in a sleeper from Montreal to Halifax that summer. When they woke us at 3am the Inspector asked me the purpose of my trip. I said I was in the States only because the train was. He asked if I was trying to be Smart and said he would be back. Well he must have got the same reply from most others as I didnt see him again. If they had left the passengers alone, they would have gone to sleep in Canada and woke in Canada the next morning, some not even realizing they had even been through the US.

The trains always made several stops in Maine: Vanceboro, Danforth, Mattawamkeag, Brownville Jct., Greenville and Jackman. Local passengers were handled between US stops but anyone boarding in the US and going to Canada were checked by Canada Customs when the trains reached McAdam NB or Megantic, Quebec.

It took a couple of years of negotiations but eventually the train was Sealed across the US with a metal Tag being placed on all doors except one where the US Customs Inspector rode and only checked those getting off in the US.

And another instance: CN (later VIA) had a similar train that crossed the US border than back into Canada. This was a tri-weekly RDC between Winnipeg and Thunder Bay. It entered the US at Warroad, Minnesota then re-entered Canada at Rainy River, Ontario. Train lasted until May 1977.

And if you go way back to the 60s: A Canadian Pacific RDC run between Montreal and Wells River, Vermont (Originally through to Boston) would cross into the US for about 10 miles to serve a couple of Vermont towns. Then the tracks crossed back into Canada for 10 miles to a couple of stops in Quebec then finally back into Vermont. Dont know how US and Canadian Customs handled this one!

 

[fairviewroad]

……the Atlantic Limited which lasted until 1994.

Oh how simple things were pre 9-11!

That's a new one: blame 9-11 for the downfall of a train that was canceled in 1994. :huh: hboy:

 

[Gord]

On Amtrak Cascades Amtrak serves only 1 Canadian city (Vancouver, BC). But on Maple Leaf and Adirondack Amtrak serves multiple Canadian cities on each route. Wouldn't serving 1 Canadian city on each route make customs and immigration much easier? You can have pre-clearance facilities in Toronto and Montreal stations (like in Vancouver, BC) so passengers can get cleared for the USA before getting on the train so it will save a lot of time. And Canadian customs will at that station too.

On Maple Leaf Amtrak serves a few Canadian cities before it gets to Toronto. But these cities are also served by Via Rail and Toronto suburban rail (GO Transit). So why not just serve Toronto Union Station and let passengers transfer there to GO trains to get to their final destinations? Amtrak also serves Niagara Falls Ontario which is just a few blocks from Niagara Falls USA, do they really need to serve both stations?

Adirondack is the same with service to Saint-Lambert, Quebec which is just a few miles from Montreal and Saint-Lambert is also served by Montreal's suburban rail. Again, why not just serve Montreal Central Station and let the passengers going to Saint-Lambert transfer at Montreal?

Am I missing something? I guess there's probably contracts somewhere telling Amtrak to stop at all those Canadian cities.

The GO train going to Niagara Falls, ON is now a seasonal, weekend gambler / tourist oriented service currently at the ON government's whim.. It is expected that it will become year-round commuter service in the future (politics permitting) but AFAIK, most trains will stop short of the Falls as there is a frequently used drawbridge on the Seaway (Welland Camal) just past St. Catharines. This would make it difficult to provide the on-time performance GO commuters demand. Due to Via cutbacks over the years, there are generally only two Via, Via / Amtrak trains per day between Toronto and NF, each way. Cutting local stops on the Leaf (Oakville, Appleby, Grimsby, St. Catharines and NF, ON would make things difficult for a lot of Canadian passengers, including me. No doubt some Americans use these intermediate stops to vist relatives, etc. Naturally, I think this is a very bad idea unless a replacement local service is provided which ain't likely.

I should also point out that these stops don't cause a huge amount of delay as Grimsby is pretty much a flag stop often bypassed and corridor track speeds are generally higher than Amtrak's non-PTC netwrk. We don't have the 79 mph restriction here.

There has to be a way to get rid of that 2-3 hour delay at the border and get the seeds up on CSX. All the oldtimers tell me customs was simple, quick and done on board while moving, in the days of steam. Of course, in those days you could board a sleeper to almost anywhere from Toronto. Now the only sleepers out of TO are on the tri-weekly (and expensive), Canadian. Progress? Not for rail passengers here.

Gord

 

[NS VIA Fan]

……the Atlantic Limited which lasted until 1994.

Oh how simple things were pre 9-11!

That's a new one: blame 9-11 for the downfall of a train that was canceled in 1994. :huh: hboy:

Go back and reread the post I said "Pre 9-11" that means "before 9-11"......I Did Not say anything about 9-11 being reason for the downfall of the Atlantic" (it was cancelled because CP intended to abandon their track across Maine)

I said:

In pre-Amtrak times, if you were travelling between Detroit and New York City, your train probably went through Canada. There were hundreds of passengers a day…….you got a cursory inspection from US and Canadian Customs or were just left alone. Amtrak revived this route for a few years in the 70s: The Empire State Express and the Niagara Rainbow.

Canadian Pacific (& later VIA) had a similar route that passed through the US between Montreal-Saint John-Halifax……the Atlantic Limited which lasted until 1994.

Oh how simple things were pre 9-11!

A cursory inspection!.......how simple things were before 9-11!

 

[NS VIA Fan]

The restored Atlantic was only back a short time before people were calling for it to rerouted via Edmundston, New Brunswick to avoid crossing the US border. Passengers were switching to the Ocean to escape the hassle from US officials even if they had to change trains and wait a couple of hours in Moncton........

It took a couple of years of negotiations but eventually the train was “Sealed” across the US with a metal “Tag” being placed on all doors except one where the US Customs Inspector rode and only checked those getting off in the US.

Saner heads eventually prevailed and in the Atlantic’s final years there was no inspection at all for those passengers passing through the USA between two Canadian points.

Unlike “Post” 9-11 inspections which helped in the cancellation of the International and the long delays still experienced on the Maple Leaf and Adirondack.

On one trip on the International, we had to get off in Sarnia with our luggage, board a bus and go through US Customs at the bridge. Then reboard the train (which had run through the tunnel empty) at Port Huron!

 

[Doug]

The Maple Leaf is a VIA train from Toronto to Niagara Falls ON. It would be odd for a VIA train not to serve VIA stations.

I see, I didn't think of that.

 

[railiner]

Some border crossing inspections were almost non-existant.

Back in the sixties, I rode a bus from New York City all the way to Fort Kent, Maine. When we reached Madawaska, Me., we briefly crossed the border and made a station stop at Edmundston, N.B., then back to Madawaska to continue on to Fort Kent. The bus was operated by the Bangor and Aroostook Railroad (Highway Division) between Bangor and Fort Kent. No one got on or off in Edmundston, and none of the few thru passengers were checked at either crossing. I believe the border agents just spoke briefly with the driver, and that was it! Amazing, when you think of what goes on now...

 

[fairviewroad]

A cursory inspection!.......how simple things were before 9-11!

I'm sorry I misunderstood your point. I thought you were implying that post 9-11, a train service running

through northern Maine would not be feasible due to new security regulations. And since the Atlantic Limited was

canceled long before 9-11, it must surely have been for other reasons (low ridership?)...meaning post 9-11

security regulations would probably not be the only thing standing in the way of resuming the service.

I guess I just weary of the "everything changed on 9-11" mantra and I took your point along those lines. But I guess

I was mistaken...sorry.

 

[GPSTraveler]

Looks like Montreal US Customs pre-clearance is closer than we thought!!! Yipppeee!!!

http://www.timesunion.com/default/article/Faster-northern-border-traffic-being-sought-1384157.php

 

[MrJake]

Taking the Adirondack from NYC to Montreal tomorrow, and I've thought for some time that customs en-route was dumb as hell. I hope this goes through.