Lack of Sleepers on #66/#67

[Joel N. Weber II]

Last July, I took the #67 train from Boston to Williamsburg, and in retrospect, it seems like a sleeper compartment would have made that trip more enjoyable. Is there some good reason why there are no sleeper cars on #66/#67?

 

[AlanB]

Last July, I took the #67 train from Boston to Williamsburg, and in retrospect, it seems like a sleeper compartment would have made that trip more enjoyable. Is there some good reason why there are no sleeper cars on #66/#67?

Well I'm not sure that this qualifies as a good reason, but basically there are no sleepers on those trains because there simply aren't enough sleepers to go around.

For years there were sleepers on 66/67, in fact I rode it several times in a sleeper. But back in 2002 following a few major derailments, and the conversion of the Cardinal from Superliner to single level equipment, the sleepers went away.

 

[Trogdor]

Last July, I took the #67 train from Boston to Williamsburg, and in retrospect, it seems like a sleeper compartment would have made that trip more enjoyable. Is there some good reason why there are no sleeper cars on #66/#67?

Well I'm not sure that this qualifies as a good reason, but basically there are no sleepers on those trains because there simply aren't enough sleepers to go around.

For years there were sleepers on 66/67, in fact I rode it several times in a sleeper. But back in 2002 following a few major derailments, and the conversion of the Cardinal from Superliner to single level equipment, the sleepers went away.

True, the sleepers did go away back in 2002 following the Auto Train derailment, which forced the Cardinal to convert from Superliner to single-level. However, that was only for a short period. The Kentucky Cardinal had its Viewliner sleeper cancelled and the sleeper was restored to 66/67. Then, in...I want to say...Spring 2003 (or maybe 04), the Twilight Shoreliner (as it was then known) was reconfigured into the "Federal," and truncated from Newport News to Washington, DC. The sleeper remained on that train for a while, but then the following winter, when things got really bad for Amtrak (including the first time they converted the Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited into a stub train), the sleeper came off of 66/67, never to return. The Chicago-Boston through cars came back for one more summer, but that fall, they were gone for good, too.

 

[battalion51]

Now that I think about it, that does sound about right Robert. I do believe it was the Spring 03 timetable when the Federal came on line, because when I was headed to the NRHS National convention in Baltimore the stub train that ran from DC to NPN (in place of the Shoreliner) was parked on adjacent track to 98 when we came in.

 

[VT Hokie]

I think this is a perfect train to offer first class seating along the lines of what you'll find on overseas airline flights. Something in between a coach seat and a sleeping compartment...

 

[BobWeaver]

I think this is a perfect train to offer first class seating along the lines of what you'll find on overseas airline flights. Something in between a coach seat and a sleeping compartment...

That's business class. But I agree, I do think that the LD trains should have an intermediate class between coach and sleepers since the price difference is the majority of the time pretty large. I don't know about anybody else, but if let's say Crescent switched its cafe car to a cafe car with 2x1 business class seating at the front, I'm pretty sure I'd go for that upgrade.

 

[TVRM610]

I think this is a perfect train to offer first class seating along the lines of what you'll find on overseas airline flights. Something in between a coach seat and a sleeping compartment...

That's business class. But I agree, I do think that the LD trains should have an intermediate class between coach and sleepers since the price difference is the majority of the time pretty large. I don't know about anybody else, but if let's say Crescent switched its cafe car to a cafe car with 2x1 business class seating at the front, I'm pretty sure I'd go for that upgrade.

I agree, I think this service would sell, it would probably be more popular with first time riders than sleeping cars since "big seat" is easier to picture than "sleeping compartment." Seems all I hear when I eat dinner with first time riders is about how small and tiny the rooms are.

If it was just one overnight, and the sleeper was real high, I would totally consider going in a "Business Class" type deal. Especially if I was by myself. I kinda don't like the idea of potentially sleeping next to a complete stranger if the train is packed.

LIGHT BULB: If amtrak could create a car that was half Parlor Lounge half business class seats they could have a first class lounge on there trains that also brought in revenue.

 

[AlanB]

I think this is a perfect train to offer first class seating along the lines of what you'll find on overseas airline flights. Something in between a coach seat and a sleeping compartment...

That's business class.

And just to be clear, trains 66/67 do indeed offer a business class car with 2 & 1 faux leather seating.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Interesting. I'd always assumed that business class on a Regional would be similar to business class on the Acela. But that makes it sound like Business Class on the Regional might be more like First Class on the Acela. How does the leg room compare?

 

[AlanB]

Interesting. I'd always assumed that business class on a Regional would be similar to business class on the Acela. But that makes it sound like Business Class on the Regional might be more like First Class on the Acela. How does the leg room compare?

Joel,

Well first I must say that it depends on the regional train. As a general rule I tend to find that Regional trains that run from Boston to DC or vice-versa, have a more traditional BC car with 2 & 2 seating. With the exception of the overnight train, I tend to find that Regionals that only run NYP-DC and vice-versa, carry the Club-Dinette car as a BC car.

The Club-Dinette car offers 2 & 1 seating in one half of the car, a cafe (sometimes used, sometimes not), and then traditional tables on the other end. The Club-Dinette cars are the former Metroliner First Class cars, with half the seats taken out and replaced with tables. Therefore the leg room is very comparable to Acela First Class, and IMHO the newly refurbished seats are actually superior to the Acela FC seats. Not only are they the faux-leather, but they offer a calf rest similar to what one finds in the long distance coaches. Just like Acela FC, they still offer a foot rest, table tray, and recline rather nicely. The seats are also actually a bit roomier than Acela's FC seats.

The Club-Dinette cars can also be found acting as BC & cafe cars on most of the short haul routes out of Chicago, on the Maple Leaf, the Pennsylvanian, the LSL stub train between Boston and Albany, the Downeaster, and the Ethan Allen.

 

[BobWeaver]

Interesting. I'd always assumed that business class on a Regional would be similar to business class on the Acela. But that makes it sound like Business Class on the Regional might be more like First Class on the Acela. How does the leg room compare?

Joel,

Well first I must say that it depends on the regional train. As a general rule I tend to find that Regional trains that run from Boston to DC or vice-versa, have a more traditional BC car with 2 & 2 seating. With the exception of the overnight train, I tend to find that Regionals that only run NYP-DC and vice-versa, carry the Club-Dinette car as a BC car.

I know for a fact that 94/95 run with a separate business class car, but I am unsure about 66/67. This picture of 67 shows what I'm assuming to be a business class car behind the baggage car though, so perhaps it varies.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=177635

However, we must keep in mind that the original Viewliner order was for 100 units, and it had to be scaled back to 50 because of funding. A lack of a sleeper, or a shortage, on a particular route doesn't necessarily mean that the demand isn't there, but that the demand is higher on other routes.

 

[PRR 60]

I think this is a perfect train to offer first class seating along the lines of what you'll find on overseas airline flights. Something in between a coach seat and a sleeping compartment...

I think what is being suggested is not a business class seat such as offered on Amtrak but a sleeper seat such as BA's Club World. These seats convert into semi-private, flat beds and include on-demand entertainment and power options. Outfitting a car with thirty or so sleeper seats and some nice bathroom facilities would be a good compromise between coach style seating (including typical Amtrak Business Class) and a sleeping car.

 

[AlanB]

Interesting. I'd always assumed that business class on a Regional would be similar to business class on the Acela. But that makes it sound like Business Class on the Regional might be more like First Class on the Acela. How does the leg room compare?

Joel,

Well first I must say that it depends on the regional train. As a general rule I tend to find that Regional trains that run from Boston to DC or vice-versa, have a more traditional BC car with 2 & 2 seating. With the exception of the overnight train, I tend to find that Regionals that only run NYP-DC and vice-versa, carry the Club-Dinette car as a BC car.

I know for a fact that 94/95 run with a separate business class car, but I am unsure about 66/67. This picture of 67 shows what I'm assuming to be a business class car behind the baggage car though, so perhaps it varies.

Yes, 94/95 run with a seperate BC car. Technically all Regional's run with a seperate BC car, regardless of whether its a full BC car with only business class seats or the club-dinette car where only half the car has BC seating. The last time that I rode 95, it had a full BC car, which does not carry the nicer seating.

As for the picture of 66/67, with the distance between the camera and the coaches, there is no way to tell where the BC car is. It could be behind the baggage car or it could be the last car in the consist. Traditionally they only place a BC car either at the front or the rear of the train. But without being able to see the car numbers, there is no way to tell which car is the BC car, much less what type of car it is. However baring a problem or a recent change by Amtrak, it should be a Club-Dinette.

However, we must keep in mind that the original Viewliner order was for 100 units, and it had to be scaled back to 50 because of funding. A lack of a sleeper, or a shortage, on a particular route doesn't necessarily mean that the demand isn't there, but that the demand is higher on other routes.

Well the sleeper on 66/67 was routinely sold out, so I'd say it's demand was pretty high. However, with the aging Viewliners and the fact that they don't seem to be holding up all that well, it was demmed more important to loose that revenue, rather than risk shorting a Silver Service train or the LSL a sleeper when there is a B/O'd car.

 

[AlanB]

I think this is a perfect train to offer first class seating along the lines of what you'll find on overseas airline flights. Something in between a coach seat and a sleeping compartment...

I think what is being suggested is not a business class seat such as offered on Amtrak but a sleeper seat such as BA's Club World. These seats convert into semi-private, flat beds and include on-demand entertainment and power options. Outfitting a car with thirty or so sleeper seats and some nice bathroom facilities would be a good compromise between coach style seating (including typical Amtrak Business Class) and a sleeping car.

I'm sure that you are right Bill, and an Amtrak BC seat isn't comparable to such a seat as you would find on BA's Club World.

I definately agree that could funding be found, that Amtrak would definately reap major benefits from having such a car as you describe on all of its LD routes.

 

[the_traveler]

Traditionally they only place a BC car either at the front or the rear of the train.

I could be wrong (and probably am ), but I thought it was only at the front of the train?

At KIN, when they built the passenger bridge, they also built a loading platform for business class. It is located at the front of the train (both NB and SB). If they put BC on the rear of the train, that would require the train to make 2 stops at KIN!

 

[AlanB]

Traditionally they only place a BC car either at the front or the rear of the train.

I could be wrong (and probably am ), but I thought it was only at the front of the train?

At KIN, when they built the passenger bridge, they also built a loading platform for business class. It is located at the front of the train (both NB and SB). If they put BC on the rear of the train, that would require the train to make 2 stops at KIN!

I can't imagine why Amtrak, or anyone for that matter, would build a platform specifically for Business Class passengers. Amtrak doesn't even build platforms for First Class passengers at busy stations, much less a slow station. Now I'll admit that 99% of the time I'm flying through Kingston on an Acela, but my monies on the platform having been built for handicapped passengers.

 

[the_traveler]

I can't imagine why Amtrak, or anyone for that matter, would build a platform specifically for Business Class passengers. Amtrak doesn't even build platforms for First Class passengers at busy stations, much less a slow station. Now I'll admit that 99% of the time I'm flying through Kingston on an Acela, but my monies on the platform having been built for handicapped passengers.

To be honest, they do say "... business class and handicapped passengers board on the high level platform ..." - but I've never heard them say "... business class board at the rear of the train ..."!

 

[battalion51]

The Vermonter, Downeaster and LSL stub are other trains which almost always has a Club-Dinettes in their consist which will offer the upgraded seating. Not all have the faux leather, but the same seat style is offered on all these trains.

 

[Superliner Diner]

Would it be safe to say that when 66/67 had the sleeper, it was the only Amtrak train ever with 3 classes (coach, business, and first) ??

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Would it be safe to say that when 66/67 had the sleeper, it was the only Amtrak train ever with 3 classes (coach, business, and first) ??

Not really, it kind of depend upon your terminology,though, I guess. I think in the earliest days of Amtrak there were still a few parlor cars around. Plus slumbercoaches.

I think both parlor cars and slumbercoaches could be said to constitute a middle class.

But it does have to do with terminology, since, after all, parlor cars were considered "first class" even though they did not have beds. Slumbercoaches were not considered first class. For example, they were not involved with Amtrak started figuring meals into the cost of your ticket. Nor did they have the first class packet, with those cookies etc of yester-year.

 

[Trogdor]

Would it be safe to say that when 66/67 had the sleeper, it was the only Amtrak train ever with 3 classes (coach, business, and first) ??

I don't think so. For about a month before it was replaced with the Palmetto (coach/business class), I believe the Silver Palm offered coach, business class, and sleeper service.

I recall the business class service starting in late March/early April 2002, and the sleepers being dropped in late April.

In fact, NARP indicates the same (#236, March 29).

 

[TVRM610]

As for the larger Airline seats that fully recline into beds, I'm not as sure about that. Would that not take up the same amount of space as a compartment? If it uses the same amount of space, than it would, theoretically, cost the same for amtrak as a sleeper. I might not be envisioning this correctly though.

I say bring back the slumbercoaches! I thought they were great , I'm sure it won't happen but I would love to see them again. To me, #66/67 would be perfect for a slumbercoach, as well as other trains.

 

[Kramerica]

I think this is a perfect train to offer first class seating along the lines of what you'll find on overseas airline flights. Something in between a coach seat and a sleeping compartment...

I think what is being suggested is not a business class seat such as offered on Amtrak but a sleeper seat such as BA's Club World. These seats convert into semi-private, flat beds and include on-demand entertainment and power options. Outfitting a car with thirty or so sleeper seats and some nice bathroom facilities would be a good compromise between coach style seating (including typical Amtrak Business Class) and a sleeping car.

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/cwyou...ce/public/en_gb

Yes, that would be awesome. And actually, that may be even more than is required. When I rode the EB in coach, the only thing that bothered my wife and I was the lack of a horizontal sleeping position. We didn't mind the lack of privacy or the lack of included meals. Or even the tiny communal bathroom. And our coach attendant was enough on-board customer service; we don't need the services of the typical sleeper attendant.

Power outlets would also be nice, although I'd say EVERY seat should have them.

I think both parlor cars and slumbercoaches could be said to constitute a middle class. Slumbercoaches were not considered first class. For example, they were not involved with Amtrak started figuring meals into the cost of your ticket. Nor did they have the first class packet, with those cookies etc of yester-year.

The slumbercoach idea looks good too. But that's more privacy than I think is really needed.

 

[VT Hokie]

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/cwyou...ce/public/en_gb
Yes, that would be awesome.

Indeed, that's exactly the type of thing I had in mind!

 

[battalion51]

As for the larger Airline seats that fully recline into beds, I'm not as sure about that. Would that not take up the same amount of space as a compartment? If it uses the same amount of space, than it would, theoretically, cost the same for amtrak as a sleeper. I might not be envisioning this correctly though.

Well the airline style seats could probably done in a 2/1 fashion, thus making it so that you can accommodate more people per car, but you also wouldn't be able to bunk beds like you do in a sleeper. So in all reality its six-to-one-half dozen the other.