Coaches were added to the 20th Century Limited in the late fifties, but it kept its name until the late sixties.
Lake Shore Limited timetable change
- Thread starter bms
- Start date
Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:
I suspect the marketability Crescent has been badly hurt by the new northbound schedule, which puts it into Atlanta (it's biggest market outside the NEC) at 11:30 p.m. when it's on time (and it's frequently late).
Ryan
Court Jester
I once had relatives in the Atlanta area that I would visit occasionally from here near DC (sometimes by rail, sometimes by air). If I were still in that market, I'd love that 11:30 departure, it would give me the full day to visit and recreate, and then start working my way to the station and returning the rental car after dinner, rather than in the middle of the afternoon. Perhaps I'm an outlier, but that's a pretty good time for a departure.
Exvalley
Conductor
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2020
- Messages
- 1,379
This only works if the train has excellent on-time performance. It makes a HUGE difference if the train is running a couple of hours late.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2019
- Messages
- 1,865
It is good to hear that the Lake Shore has some fans. I think it is a poor excuse for what it could be.
The sleeping car fares on the Lake Shore are about the highest (per mile) in the Amtrak system the last time I checked and the amenities are so lacking. The food service is poor. There is no baggage car in the Boston section. The Boston sleeper is up front now right behind the locomotives because the Albany switching crew failed switching school and can't seem to put the Boston sleeper next to the New York sleepers where it should be. The Boston section appears to not be entitled to any dispatching priority when it runs late and gets out of its time slot so it always becomes a classic example of "Late trains get later." The cafe car is much too small for a train of this size especially when precious space is occupied by napkins and/or crew. The Boston section seems to be bustituted at the drop of a hat and the bustitution is not pleasant (unlike a New Orleans - Jackson bustitution which is the cat's meow of bustitutions in my experience).
The coach toilets seem to be either a mess or non-functioning the second day of the trip because no one appears to take responsibility for them (same is true with the coach toilets on the Crescent.)
I can tolerate riding the westbound Lake Shore because it is a gauntlet that you have to pass through in order to reach the decent western trains. I have pretty much given up on the eastbound Lake Shore because of its often poor timekeeping (although it has been better lately).
My preference now is to take the Lake Shore westbound and fly back. If I were not a railfan, I don't think I would take this train at all (except for the section along the Westfield River west of Springfield - that's nice).
As for the Crescent, it used to be a fine train and was as late as our May 2019 trip when one of the new dining cars was operating as it should be serving delicious meals. However it has now gone bad food with no other amenities.
neroden
Engineer
Because it's the most popular.
You're right, it should have much better service, given that it has the most unfulfilled potential of any route in the Amtrak system.
I don't think that is fair to the ALB crews - I am sure they are doing what is asked of them and Amtrak is taking the easy way out and just sticking 449 on the head end of 49, or removing 448 from 48 by just uncoupling. Yes it would be nice to have 448/449 sleeper back with the rest and not have to walk through the cafe and 4 coaches to get to the diner, but you can imagine the complexity of switching moves to do that.
In the 1970's, the Boston cars were placed in the rear. It had its own engine and food service car. No need to waste 2 locos for a 4 car train. The Chicago engines started out at Albany. They don't take any less time today than then with everything reversed. All equipment and OBS crews were based out of Chicago, with GCT operations. That was also when Rensselaer station had a far more inferior track layout and station than they do today.
Amtrak can add back the baggage car on the Boston section whenever they want. They don't want to any more than they want revenue from Amtrak Express to return. They are biding their time for the next, less friendly Congress to carry out Amtrak's hidden aganda on the national network.
Last edited:
It was physically possible to go between the El Cap and Super Chief sections, the last car in the El Cap section was usually a transition coach. However, it was STRONGLY discouraged and there was usually a brakeman or conductor who rode that car to ensure no one from the El Cap went back into the Super Chief, as well as there being a big sign. As a Super Chief passenger, I was allowed into the El Cap and back into the Super Chief.
It was really operated as two separate trains combined into one operating consist. The Super Chief and El Capitan each had their separate own dining and lounge facilities. I do not consider the combining of the trains, which took place in 1958, as a downgrade to the Super Chief. Service standards and equipment remained until the end.
I recall the lounge car, in particular, really looked as if it had rolled out of the factory just the day before. In 1970.
Seems like it would be just the same as the TE/SL switching...
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Moderator's Notes: All the posts about the CP-Amtrak Agreement on passenger service through the Detroit River Tunnel were moved from this thread to its own thread:
https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/agreement-between-cp-and-amtrak-about-detroit-tunnel.80774/
https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/agreement-between-cp-and-amtrak-about-detroit-tunnel.80774/
Another thing to realize is that the two engines on the Boston section (449) are the ones that take the combined train (49 and 449) through to Chicago. The locomotive that takes 49 up to Abany is a dual-mode (electric/diesel) needed to travel into Penn Station, and it really should remain in the New York - Albany area and not spend all it's time out in Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. Under those circumstances, the most efficient switching move to combine the two sections is to simply stick 449 in front of 49. I'm not sure why there's so much opposition to having to walk through a couple of coaches in order to get to the dining car. I once rode in the Portland sleeper on the Empire Builder, which is set up in a similar way, and had to walk through a couple of coaches to get to the diner, and it was no big deal.
When the Lake Shore Ltd has its full consist of 6 coaches and an intervening dinette, from the Boston sleeper, the diner is 8 cars back. Furthermore, coach passengers have no choice but to go to the dinette, which doesn't exist south of Albany, and to take the food all the way back to eat as there are only 4 tables to sit for up to 360 coach passengers. If they supplemented that with a snack trolley like on VIA Rail, it would block the aisle and be self-defeating.
Last edited:
"Out of the box" suggestion. Take the New York segment and eliminate many stops to make it to and from Chicago in less time. Stops would be Albany (connection with Boston segment and Empire Service for Hudson River stops; Buffalo; Cleveland; Toledo; and Chicago. Boston train would make all scheduled stops Boston to Chicago. Albany would still require longer stop (until new ALC-42s arrive) to change engines and for connections, but no joining two trains.
neroden
Engineer
Non-starter. The reason why is in the ridership data:
https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3447/45.pdf
Within the top ten city pairs on the route, you have Syracuse-Chicago, Rochester-Chicago, Rochester-NYP, and Syracuse-NYP.
You can't skip Syracuse, Rochester, or Buffalo on ANY trip. They're too big.
Frankly skipping stops doesn't save much time at all anyway.
A more viable suggestion would be to get another locomotive and run the Boston train independently from the NY train, both making all stops -- but *rescheduling*. (This would also eliminate the switching at Albany for the Boston train.)
If the Boston and NY trains were independent, they could run on two different timetables, providing a second daily frequency from Albany to Chicago, which would be very useful. One could leave Chicago earlier in the evening (maybe at 6 PM?), the other at the current very late hour.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2019
- Messages
- 1,865
If the Lake Shore is down to two coaches, then it is later than I thought.
In my experience (and I have ridden it a number of times over the past ten years) the only time 48 and 49 are down to 5 coaches is when the Boston section is annulled and there is either a Boston-Albany stub train or a Boston - Albany bustitution. As has been stated the normal consist seems to be 6 coaches and sometimes 7. I don't mind the walk from the Boston sleeper to the so-called dining car because I have no mobility issues but some are not so fortunate. I think the Boston sleeper needs to be in the back because it is quieter there especially since there is now no Boston baggage car up front. This is the same reason I love the Portland sleeper at the rear of the Empire Builder and the Texas Eagle thru sleeper at the rear of the Sunset.
Switching at Albany should not be complex especially after the colossal mult-year, multi-million dollar yard reconstruction at Albany a few years ago. There is a way to do it but there is no will.
I've never ridden in a sleeper, but I would think the biggest issue is the location of the sleeper as car #1 after the two engines, and thus the loudest train horn noise will be in that sleeper car. That doesn't speak to premium treatment for the prices charged for a sleeper.
Does Positive Train Control play a role here? My limited understanding is that a train going from moving forward to backward, and then back to forward, requires some significant time to reconfigure PTC.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Yard moves are not covered by PTC. So PTC is a non issue when shunting cars around in Albany. I also suspect that they have to rejigger their PTC anyway, since the system used on the Boston segment is different from the one used for the New Yrok segment, which is the same as the one used from Albany to Schenectady/Hoffmans.
