Lake Shore Limited timetable change

[BlackDiamond]

Big difference in that this was the premier train of the New York Central and it was not delayed by freights and if it was upper management would be on the phone asking why.

 

[jis]

Big difference in that this was the premier train of the New York Central and it was not delayed by freights and if it was upper management would be on the phone asking why.

It was so premier for NY Central that they chose to bag it, and indeed it was not even part of the initial Amtrak network. Historically we are in some sense fortunate to have got it back through a series of fortuitous events. We were on the verge of losing it at one point when it got rescued into becoming a national network train from the 403b that it started as.

And then two decades later we lost the original national network NY - Chicago train! It is all very capricious if you ask me.

 

[Rasputin]

It was so premier for NY Central that they chose to bag it, and indeed it was not even part of the initial Amtrak network.

If we judged our trains by what the private railroads dumped, or tried to dump, pre-Amtrak, I guess all we might have left would be the Southwest Chief, the Empire Builder and the Crescent.

 

[jis]

If we judged our trains by what the private railroads dumped, or tried to dump, pre-Amtrak, I guess all we might have left would be the Southwest Chief, the Empire Builder and the Crescent.

Indeed! We should leave yesterday behind and move to a national network for tomorrow taking into account today’s and projected population and travel trends. That is what the FRA exercise that RPA contributed to has been all about. It does identify Northeast to Chicago as a very major inter-zone travel corridor. Now the open question is what, if anything Amtrak will do about it short to medium term.

 

[BlackDiamond]

The NYC didn't "bag" the train it downgraded it from an all Pullman train to a regular train with coaches, as happened to the Super Chief and many other premier trains when they lost their elite passengers to the airlines.

I agree the NYC- Chicago segment has been through many changes over the years. We should have a restored Broadway / 3 Rivers as well as the LSL, plus more local service West of Buffalo especially in Ohio and Indiana.

 

[jis]

The NYC didn't "bag" the train it downgraded it from an all Pullman train to a regular train with coaches, as happened to the Super Chief and many other premier trains when they lost their elite passengers to the airlines.

The 20th Century limited had its last run on Dec 2, 1967. Other trains did continue running but that particular train was gone. It was discontinued. Bagged.

PRR downgraded the Broadway Limited in 1967. NY Central discontinued the 20th Century Limited in 1967.

Incidentally the last run to Chicago was 9+ hours late due to a freight derailment, and there are no reports of anyone losing their job over it.

 

[cocojacoby]

In 1956 the 20th Century Limited [now the LSL] left NYC at 5pm and arrived in Chicago at 8am the next morning. Now, over a half century later, speed and time show no sign of 'slowing down.' That's progress!

View attachment 26610

I had to look up the schedule:

https://www.american-rails.com/20th.html#Timetables
I guess it was a true limited train not even stopping in Cleveland. In 1956 it was even close to a non-stop express. What if the LSL ran the same way?

 

[jis]

First of LSL has absolutely nothing to do with what the 20th Century Limited was, except for sharing the two end cities. LSL in its Amtrak incarnation, was a quickly cobbled together thing when the opportunity arose to finally get a through train via Buffalo and Cleveland between NY and Chicago funded by a few states up and running. Later it became part of the national network. As long as it is the only train on the route it will stop at every place where it does and then some.

We are far from a train density on the route situation which would allow anything to run on a 20th Century limited like schedule. There are way many more issues on the national network to deal with before we can quite get there.

 

[bratkinson]

It’s a couple of minutes here and a few minutes there, but overall, for a train in 2021 it should be a quicker running train (not longer - but that's a whole other debate!). UGH!

The westbound - they could have actually tightened the schedule up between NYP and Albany. Seems to always have a early arrival into Albany westbound. As per above, eastbound too, but that's to also allow the train to makeup time. Used to be load and go once the trains were split off at Albany. Not sire what the SOP is now. I think they actually carry local traffic now.

Schedule would look more appealing if it left NYP at 4:05 pm and arrived into Chicago at 9:55 am. But then again, as someone else commented, I guess we should be content that these trains are running at all!

I think there are a few other schedule changes coming forth on the Eastern LD trains (permanent in nature), but minor overall. And presumably a result of Amtrak negotiating with host railroads.

Maybe 7-8 yes ago, Trains mag ran a scheduling article. One of the take away was all padding will quickly be cconsumed. In my book, the LSL spends way too much time at each stop and adding more padding will merely lengthen station times.

 

[Cal]

The NYC didn't "bag" the train it downgraded it from an all Pullman train to a regular train with coaches, as happened to the Super Chief and many other premier trains when they lost their elite passengers to the airlines.

The Chief, IRCC, was never downgraded at all. The Santa Fe prided themselves about their passenger trains. They even were willing to continue to operate it after Amtrak became a thing.

 

[BlackDiamond]

The Chief, IRCC, was never downgraded at all. The Santa Fe prided themselves about their passenger trains. They even were willing to continue to operate it after Amtrak became a thing.

Downgrading in the sense of going from all Pullman to pullmans plus coaches. Didn't that happen to the Super Chief?

At least the Super Chief kept its name, whereas the 20th Century Limited just became another numbered train on the NYC.

 

[jis]

Downgrading in the sense of going from all Pullman to pullmans plus coaches. Didn't that happen to the Super Chief?

In the later days the Super Chief (Sleeper only) was combined with the El Capitan (Hi Level Coach) and run as a single consist. But even then they really were two separate trains in the sense that it was not possible to walk over from one train to the other while in motion.

 

[cocojacoby]

We are far from a train density on the route situation which would allow anything to run on a 20th Century limited like schedule.

But is there a market for an express overnight train between two of the country's biggest cities? With flying becoming more of a nightmare and driving just not a great option (especially in the winter up north), it seems like such a service would be a very attractive alternative especially now.

Are there not a couple of hundred people a day who would take advantage of such a train? There are over 2,362,480 passengers a year flying between these two cities. I would think there has to be a market there.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

But is there a market for an express overnight train between two of the country's biggest cities? With flying becoming more of a nightmare and driving just not a great option (especially in the winter up north), it seems like such a service would be a very attractive alternative especially now.

Are there not a couple of hundred people a day who would take advantage of such a train? There are over 2,362,480 passengers a year flying between these two cities. I would think there has to be a market there.

There might be, but one would have to figure out if they were travelling for business and needed to be back same day or continuing on via another flight. But my suspicion is much of the crack trains ridership went to planes for the speed of it and won't return to rail unless it were the only option.

Frankly, we need more trains on that route: not one long through train, but corridor trains. Cleveland's ridership (which, despite the awful hours is still reasonably strong) would likely explode with good times to Chicago and to points east.

 

[joelkfla]

But is there a market for an express overnight train between two of the country's biggest cities? With flying becoming more of a nightmare and driving just not a great option (especially in the winter up north), it seems like such a service would be a very attractive alternative especially now.

Are there not a couple of hundred people a day who would take advantage of such a train? There are over 2,362,480 passengers a year flying between these two cities. I would think there has to be a market there.

It's about 800 miles from Chicago to NYC. Even if the track were upgraded to allow an average speed of 100mph, it would still be a full day or overnight trip.

Now if somebody were to build a true state of the art HSR line that could make it in 4 hours, that might be another matter.

 

[neroden]

The Sunset links five major cities, the Chief 3, the starlight 4, the zephyr 4, the crescent 3. The LSL doesn’t have much over those in terms of cities served.

NYC, Boston, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend... I count 10 cities of >100,000 people.... 10 is more than 4

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

NYC, Boston, Springfield, Albany, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend... I count 10 cities of >100,000 people.... 10 is more than 4

Not to mention being a shorter route travelling through areas with far higher population density.

 

[Exvalley]

But is there a market for an express overnight train between two of the country's biggest cities?

As a business traveler, it would take two things:
1) Depart no earlier than 5:30 PM.
2) Arrive no later than 9:00 AM and have impeccable on-time performance.

 

[rs9]

Ignoring how business travel may have permanently changed, Amtrak would have to try to compete for business travelers.

Most of us would probably agree flying is a miserable experience - you don't need to be a regular user or supporter of trains to experience that. However, frequent business flyers likely have a different experience. They have access to private lounges, priority boarding, first class seats, expedited security, etc. Now that may not sound like much, but if you ever visit an airport lounge, take a look at the clientele. Likewise, the one time I flew in first class, I was the only person wearing shorts and a t-shirt (am I a slob?).

If Amtrak could advertise express CHI-NYC service with dedicated business class cars that are enforced quiet cars like you find on some commuter railroads, with actual fast wifi, there might be something here.

 

[Exvalley]

A good meal in the dining car and a nicely appointed bar car would go a long way.

 

[jis]

If Amtrak could advertise express CHI-NYC service with dedicated business class cars that are enforced quiet cars like you find on some commuter railroads, with actual fast wifi, there might be something here.

I agree. But it has be be a second or third train on the route like NYP - CHI with ten or so significant population centers en route. That is how it is done in most of the rest of the world, except where the sole purpose of the train is mostly rail based tourism.

 

[MARC Rider]

The Sunset links five major cities, the Chief 3, the starlight 4, the zephyr 4, the crescent 3. The LSL doesn’t have much over those in terms of cities served.

The major cities along the Lakeshore Limited route are closer to each other than the major cities on the western long-distance trains. Thus, the Lakeshore Limited route has more of an opportunity to actually provide practical transportation services to a larger number of passengers over its complete route than any of the western long distance passenger trains. Having no mountain ranges to cross, it also has the potential for faster running times, making it competitive with driving, as it already is in the New York to Albany segment, which has corridor service.

The Crescent route also has a similar potential, especially for the New York to Atlanta portion. Fort the western trains, a lot of the routes run through pretty sparely populated territory, and the running time can probably not be made competitive with driving dues to the mountain ranges that need to be crossed. That's also the case, unfortunately, for the Capitol Limited.

 

[MARC Rider]

Except for the Crescent, the others you mention are normally decent trains providing good service. The Lake Shore and the Crescent are not.

What's wrong with the Lakeshore Limited? I just rode it last October. The service was perfectly good. All they really need to do is get rid of the flex dining (replacing with traditional), but keep the diner open as a first class lounge after meal service, and it would be a top-notch train.

I've ridden the Crescent, too, pre flex, pre-Covid, and that was a fine train was well. They just need to restore the diner and add some more coaches to the consist. Well, and somehow deal with Norfolk Southern so they can implement a more convenient, reliable schedule.

 

[MARC Rider]

But is there a market for an express overnight train between two of the country's biggest cities? With flying becoming more of a nightmare and driving just not a great option (especially in the winter up north), it seems like such a service would be a very attractive alternative especially now.

Are there not a couple of hundred people a day who would take advantage of such a train? There are over 2,362,480 passengers a year flying between these two cities. I would think there has to be a market there.

Flying might be a nightmare, but the vast majority of airline passengers are able to travel between the northeast cities and Chicago in a half day or less (Flight time is about 2 hours) and don't require an overnight, except in extreme weather situations. The problem with driving is that most people don't do well driving more that 10 hours at a time, and the Northeast-Chicago drive is something like 15 hours, still faster than the train, but most people need an overnight stop. They also need to stop to use the restroom, refuel, and eat. Winter weather is not quite the bear some think it is, as there might only be one or two really bad snowstorms that stop traffic. I speak from some experience, as I spent a couple of years in college driving the route (I-80 across PA, the PA turnpike, the Ohio Turnpike, etc.) including winter break, and we were always able to get through. And that was 45 years ago when the climate was colder than it is now.

There's a market for long-distance trains, but it doesn't include people who will only take the train if it's a limited or nonstop express. That market was, as jis pointed out, mainly elite passengers, who nowadays (with some exceptions) don't even think about taking the train. And flying for them isn't a nightmare, because they have access to personal jets. The days of the 20th Century Limited and all-sleeping car trains (at least as common carriers) are over and it's been that way for decades.

 

[cocojacoby]

There's a market for long-distance trains, but it doesn't include people who will only take the train if it's a limited or nonstop express.

I don't know the numbers of passengers that are going end to end but I have heard that the new "Night Owl" is pretty successful. That's probably the closest barometer we have of such an overnight market train. It doesn't matter if this train runs non-stop or not because it's a short route but maybe pairs like CHI-NYC or NYC/WAS - ATL would benefit from overnight express scheduling.