Lake Shore Limited - which type of business class car is used?

[user 6862]

Starting to plan the next stage of our hoped for US journey in October/November, the section from Chicago to Syracuse NY. The LSL Roomette price for a simple overnight is a lot higher than the Coast Starlight that we booked last week, the journey times are very similar.

So we are considering travelling Business class, no problem for us to sleep in those seats and are not too bothered by other night noises either. Have travelled a few times in business, once the car looked like standard coach seating, 2 + 2 seats across the car with perhaps? extra legroom. Two other occassions the seats were 2 + 1 across, this felt more roomy.

I think once there was a cafe or bar in the business which did create some traffic, but not sure on that.

Is a fixed type of business car used on the LSL and if so which type please?

 

[CTANut]

When I was on it, it was a section of the cafe car. This was in December 2020.

 

[jis]

Normally the LSL BC would be an old Metroliner BC with 2x1 seating in one half of the Cafe Car. They probably have the most comfortable seats on the Amtrak system today.

 

[user 6862]

When I was on it, it was a section of the cafe car. This was in December 2020.

Normally the LSL BC would be an old Metroliner BC with 2x1 seating in one half of the Cafe Car. They probably have the most comfortable seats on the Amtrak system today.

If they are still running that setup that will do for us, thank you both.

 

[PVD]

JIS is correct, the LSL is almost always the split car, and it continues on to Boston, not NYP, but that is not an issue for you. That's why NYP passengers don't see cafe car service until (or after) Albany.....

 

[user 6862]

JIS is correct, the LSL is almost always the split car, and it continues on to Boston, not NYP, but that is not an issue for you. That's why NYP passengers don't see cafe car service until (or after) Albany.....

Thanks. Does that mean it's not possible to take BC all the way from CHI to NYP?

 

[jis]

Thanks. Does that mean it's not possible to take BC all the way from CHI to NYP?

Correct.

 

[user 6862]

From here it looks like that is the wrong way round... as in NYC and Boston wouldn't compare for population alone

 

[fdaley]

From here it looks like that is the wrong way round... as in NYC and Boston wouldn't compare for population alone

I think this is dictated by the food service, rather than the business class. The BC car doubles as a cafe and provides the only food option on the Boston leg, while the New York section gets the dining car. Of course, they haven't really had dining service on the Lake Shore for the past three years, so the Boston passengers might be getting the better end of the deal now.

 

[jis]

From here it looks like that is the wrong way round... as in NYC and Boston wouldn't compare for population alone

I don't see the connection between population and the availability or not of 16 BC seats. But that may be just me.

Providing the BC to Boston was a more or less zero cost enhancement, whereas providing BC seats to NY would require additional cost of equipment. It is just as simple as that.

 

[user 6862]

I don't see the connection between population and the availability or not of 16 BC seats. But that may be just me.

Providing the BC to Boston was a more or less zero cost enhancement, whereas providing BC seats to NY would require additional cost of equipment. It is just as simple as that.

Simple thoughts on my part. With the much larger population of NYC there is a potential much larger market for BC services. And I assume that NYC as a world business center may have more BC passenders anyway?

As someone famously said "I know nuffink"

 

[jis]

That's why NY gets two Sleepers. Arguably, it should get one more with the deployment of the new Sleepers.

 

[zephyr17]

Hate to say it, but I have long ago stopped expecting rational business decisions by Amtrak management of long distance services.

They certainly seem to have absolutely no interest in growing their business .

 

[railiner]

I don't see the connection between population and the availability or not of 16 BC seats. But that may be just me.

Providing the BC to Boston was a more or less zero cost enhancement, whereas providing BC seats to NY would require additional cost of equipment. It is just as simple as that.

IIRC, the Lake Shore used to carry a New York to Albany cafe, and perhaps some other cut out coaches...the Boston section got a lounge cafe. This was back in the Heritage era....

 

[fdaley]

IIRC, the Lake Shore used to carry a New York to Albany cafe, and perhaps some other cut out coaches...the Boston section got a lounge cafe. This was back in the Heritage era....

This is what I remember too. At least into the early '90s, there was a local coach and cafe from NYP to ALB; these were removed before the Boston cars were hooked on. For sure this ended by the time the Viewliner sleepers arrived in late '95, but it might have been before that.

 

[bms]

Until they put in Flexible Dining, the LSL carried a full-service Diner in the New York section and a Cafe/Business car in the Boston section. The Diner was considered the better car, so it was in the New York section since New York is obviously the bigger market. This was only two or three years ago. Coach passengers could eat in the diner, and I think the diner also provided some kind of cafe-like service southbound from ALB-NYP (I never took advantage, figuring I could get a good meal in New York or at my mother's house.)

With the downgraded dining, the Cafe Car is more desirable than the beautiful new Diners, paid for by taxpayers and used only to microwave TV dinners. I think the remedy is to bring back real dining service to the New York section, and let Boston keep its Cafe/Business car.

 

[bratkinson]

If I recall, during the summer when the LSL went to GCT rather than NYP account the bridge at Spuyten Duyvil was temporarily removed to be repaired, Amtrak ran a 'stub' train BOS-ALB with cross-platform transfer for all passengers.

The stub train ran with 2 coaches and a cafe. The sleeper was gone but a full NEC business class car was in its place, which was for the exclusive use of sleeper passengers BOS-ALB. That way, the sleeper passengers would get their dinner from the cafe as usual on 448/449. They'd meet their sleeping car in ALB as it was in the #3 sleeper position at the end of the train coming from GCT. As a Springfield area resident, I had no problem with this arrangement as I was/am accustomed to the 2 car Springfield shuttle trains with cross platform transfer to/from the 'full' train at NHV. Except for the piss poor equipment utilization of the 2 captive 'sets' about 6 hours per day, I'd be all for it being reinstated. Perhaps if they used the equipment for an ALB->somewhere (maybe Pittsfield?) run to overnight there and return in the morning to ALB.

Meanwhile, the New York section had the 'full' Lakeshore consist, with the 2 BOS section coaches up front plus the usual 3 or 4 NY coaches, the diner, then 3 sleepers and the NY baggage car. I think the cafe with BC car was up front ahead of the coaches with the BC section in the front which eliminated all through foot traffic. Running the 'full train' to NY had the advantage of eliminating the switching activities at ALB for the train, although they still had to switch locomotives to remove/get the dual-power locos for NY access.

Back then, pre Contemporary Garbage dining, the dining car from NYP had some cafe car food they'd sell as the cafe came from BOS. But nowadays, the dining car throughout all of Amtrak serves ZERO coach passengers, so they have to starve through the dinner hour until 7PM-ish when the train leaves ALB (they NEVER open up prior to departure). (Question...does the SEA section of the Empire Builder starve THEIR coach passengers as well?) So, I am all for sending the cafe/BC to NYP these days to get better BC utilization and more revenue.

 

[fdaley]

Actually, I think the summer that the Empire Service trains ran to GCT, the entire Lake Shore ran through to Boston. People going to/from New York had to transfer at Albany. This was also right after the change to "contemporary dining" (meaning cold food in boxes).

But there was a period of several years (approx. 2005-08?) when the whole train ran to NYP, with a stub train of two coaches and cafe connecting to/from Boston at Albany.

 

[jiml]

On our last eastbound LSL trip to NYC (summer of 2015), Boston passengers had a cross-platform transfer at Albany to a stub train - 3 or 4 cars long. Several announcements were made. The entire LSL went to New York (Penn). I had disembarked to photograph the split, which didn't happen.

 

[SubwayNut]

In the Summer of Amtrak to GCT operations the Lake Shore only ran to Boston. I took it home from CHI to SBN a couple times and it was very strange to be getting on Lake Shore Limited train #449 only running to Boston (New York wasn't mentioned on any sigange in Union Station).

Here are my first memories of the Lake Shore Limited:

I rode it for the first time in probably 1996ish (when I was about 6 years old), my Mom had specifically booked it in coach for our return from Syracuse to New York so we could have lunch in the dining car. I remember the train being maybe about 4 hours late, my first time in an Amfleet II coach with Televisions in the luggage racks (or maybe hanging down from the luggage racks), and the leg rests that made the seats seem so big. This was especially compared to the normal Amfleet I regional cars we rode going from New York to Syracuse, or other Northeast destinations.

I remember having lunch in the Dining Car with a stranger from the Boston section. In Albany I watched them decouple the train at the Lounge car (outside of the car said lounge, I don't think we ever walked into it) and watching the Boston section leave. After Albany they brought on a Cafe Car for the ALB-NYC leg that was handing out free snacks and drinks because the train was running so late. While we went down the Hudson we briefly went into what was definitely a Viewliner Sleeper to look at it and see what a sleeper car looked like, I remember the distinctive modern double doours that opened compared to the very heavy door of the dining car. The crew had no problems showing a Mom with two young kids what an overnight ride would look like. There was definately both a cafe car added in Albany and a Viewliner sleeper on the train.

I rode the train plenty of times to and from Syracuse, but didn't ride the Lake Shore again until February 2005, I remember we got one of the Weekly Special fares and paid only like $25 to get home from Syracuse, and the Lake Shore was on time. We had lunch in the dining car, I remember the cross platform transfer to the Boston Section, and the train getting a little delayed because of the amount of time it took to transfer all the luggage into the baggage car. The ride down the Hudson was one of the most relaxing ever since the train was so empty and the bigger Amfleet II windows. On most trips to SYR on Empire Service trains or the Maple Leaf, ALB-NYP is often jam packed and the ride beyond ALB is when the train empties out.

On a Lake Shore Limited ride from CHI to NYP as recently as 2015 the dining car crew reopened to sell beverages, pretzels and chips for about 1/2 an hour right after we left Albany. I remember going into buy some pretzels. I was quite hungry and planned to have lunch in the dining car earlier that afternoon but the crew said there wasn't any space and not enough food for coach passengers and refused me service.

I've only ridden the Seattle section of the Empire Builder once back in 2006. I was in Coach and had dinner in the Dining Car, and the two tables closest to the doors to the rest of the coaches was selling cafe car type items, but they wouldn't let anyone linger to sit and eat them.

 

[fhussain44]

So is it confirmed the Albany -> Chi business class is 2X1 seating? How are the seats for sleeping compared to coach?

 

[Cal]

So is it confirmed the Albany -> Chi business class is 2X1 seating? How are the seats for sleeping compared to coach?

I believe the standard consist has it, with a rare switch.

 

[daybeers]

When the Boston section of the LSL is bustituted, as it is now, usually they keep the same split cafe/BC car with 2x1 seating in the consist, as it is now.

 

[ja5151]

So is it confirmed the Albany -> Chi business class is 2X1 seating? How are the seats for sleeping compared to coach?

I'm curious about that too -- a group of 6 of us are doing Chicago to Rochester NY in a couple weeks, and I just guessed that business would be better for sleeping (more private anyway) than coach.

Also, is there any kind of separate lounge car? Or maybe it's just a cafe/business class car?

 

[fdaley]

I'm curious about that too -- a group of 6 of us are doing Chicago to Rochester NY in a couple weeks, and I just guessed that business would be better for sleeping (more private anyway) than coach.

Also, is there any kind of separate lounge car? Or maybe it's just a cafe/business class car?

The Business Class seating is in one end of the cafe car. There are a few lounge tables in the other end, though usually about half of them are occupied by the crew. If there are six in your party, you'll account for more than a third of the seating capacity in the car, so it will be more private in that sense.