MoDOT State Rail Plan FY2012

[Ozark Southern]

Fellow Missourians! Now is the time to give your input on the new state rail plan, due out next April. The two main issues at these meetings, at least regarding passenger rail, are the improvements to the MORR and the possibility of new service St. Louis-Springfield. I know we've got several members in the KC and St. Louis areas, so let's let MoDOT know how much we love our trains! I know I'm planning to be there!

St. Louis meeting:

10/26 5:30-7:30 PM Kirkwood Amtrak Station

Kansas City meeting:

11/2 5:30-7:30 PM, Sermon Center in Independence

Springfield meeting:

11/3 5:30-7:30 PM, Springfield Area Chamber of Commerce

For more information, including other meetings around the state (sorry Hannibal/Quincy folks, I'm a little late for y'all) and a Powerpoint of meeting notes, see this link:

http://www.modot.org/newsandinfo/District0Release.shtml?action=displaySSI&newsId=129939

 

[Anderson]

What does the Springfield plan look like (or is there one)? I'm just wondering because...well, where does that freight line ultimately run to? With Amtrak mentioning St. Louis as a secondary hub of sorts, this looks like an interesting starting point.

 

[Ozark Southern]

It's the old Frisco mainline, which used to run from St. Louis to San Francisco. Today it's owned by BNSF and truncated at Oklahoma City, but it's in very good shape. Most of the line runs 55MPH freight frequently. Springfield was the headquarters of the Frisco, and there are two wyes in the city, which currently averages 40 freights per day. So we have the possibility of using Springfield as an endpoint for a state train or running through to Joplin and connecting to an Oklahoma-supported train to Tulsa and Oklahoma City, similarly to the Lincoln/MORR.

 

[Ozark Southern]

As for the study, MoDOT and Amtrak put together an official document in 2007 during our last rail plan. They decided not to go forward with the service for three reasons:

1)Lack of a universal crossover at Kirkwood would necessitate going through a freight yard to St. Louis Gateway.

2)the presence of an American Airlines flight from Springfield to St. Louis, which completes the journey in about an hour.

3)The trip time would be approximately 6 hours, about twice the time to drive on parallel I-44.

In the intervening five years, major changes have taken place:

1)The universal crossover was built, which will allow the Springfield line to stop at Kirkwood--translation, additional passengers.

2)The AA flight was cancelled in 2009. It was a holdover from the TWA days (I actually took this flight when I was a kid).

3)The ability to use the MORR route from Pacific to St. Louis Gateway will drastically save time and bring the trip down to probably around 4-4.5 hours. Time it so this train can meet up with one of the Lincolns, and you're looking at about 8 hours Springfield-Chicago, which equals driving time.

Given this drastically different situation, MoDOT is wanting to look into the service again; they've had an online survey for a while now, and these public meetings should give them some additional information.

Here's the link for the 2007 survey:

http://www.modot.org/othertransportation/rail/documents/MissouriDOT-SpringfieldtoStLouisServiceReport051607WebEdition.pdf

 

[Anderson]

It's the old Frisco mainline, which used to run from St. Louis to San Francisco. Today it's owned by BNSF and truncated at Oklahoma City, but it's in very good shape. Most of the line runs 55MPH freight frequently. Springfield was the headquarters of the Frisco, and there are two wyes in the city, which currently averages 40 freights per day. So we have the possibility of using Springfield as an endpoint for a state train or running through to Joplin and connecting to an Oklahoma-supported train to Tulsa and Oklahoma City, similarly to the Lincoln/MORR.

That's what I was thinking. Actually, if you ran a through train to Oklahoma City, you could probably run a train from St. Louis to Dallas/Fort Worth in conjunction with the Heartland Flyer. Granted, such a trip would more likely than not be a two day, two seat daylight trip with a break at Oklahoma City (though the thought of extending that back to Chicago if there's enough business to be gained does come to mind). But I was wondering because there is an interstate corridor there, and that usually means a major railroad line.

Edit: Just a note, but the St. Louis and San Francicso railroad never actually got to San Francisco. I don't think it actually got beyond Texas (and it was far from the only railroad with an overblown name...there's more than one line which had a name indicating super-long distance traffic that never got beyond a moderate-length mainline and a few branches).

 

[Ozark Southern]

It's the old Frisco mainline, which used to run from St. Louis to San Francisco. Today it's owned by BNSF and truncated at Oklahoma City, but it's in very good shape. Most of the line runs 55MPH freight frequently. Springfield was the headquarters of the Frisco, and there are two wyes in the city, which currently averages 40 freights per day. So we have the possibility of using Springfield as an endpoint for a state train or running through to Joplin and connecting to an Oklahoma-supported train to Tulsa and Oklahoma City, similarly to the Lincoln/MORR.

That's what I was thinking. Actually, if you ran a through train to Oklahoma City, you could probably run a train from St. Louis to Dallas/Fort Worth in conjunction with the Heartland Flyer. Granted, such a trip would more likely than not be a two day, two seat daylight trip with a break at Oklahoma City (though the thought of extending that back to Chicago if there's enough business to be gained does come to mind). But I was wondering because there is an interstate corridor there, and that usually means a major railroad line.

If we could have such a line, we'd love it. I know Oklahoma is pretty keen on getting service between OKC and Tulsa, and the best route for that line is indeed the very line that goes through Springfield. So the two states really have a mutual interest here, if we can coordinate things.

Edit: Just a note, but the St. Louis and San Francicso railroad never actually got to San Francisco. I don't think it actually got beyond Texas (and it was far from the only railroad with an overblown name...there's more than one line which had a name indicating super-long distance traffic that never got beyond a moderate-length mainline and a few branches).

Interesting. I knew AT&SF had truncated it when they bought Frisco, but I guess they ripped up fewer miles than I thought.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The Frisco was acquired by the Burlington Northern in the late 1970s. Burlington Northern merged with the Santa Fe years later.

 

[Ozark Southern]

The Frisco was acquired by the Burlington Northern in the late 1970s. Burlington Northern merged with the Santa Fe years later.

Well, I've just got things all backwards, then.

 

[PaulM]

I find the thread interesting because I once was a graduate student at the Hillbilly Institute of Technology - oops, I mean the Missouri School of Mines and Metallurgy, later U of Mo at Rolla, and much later Mo U of Science & Technology (or some such name). I looked forward to week end trips back to STL and civilization on the Frisco Oklahoman. It was a remnant of the Texas Special which died while I was there or shortly before. It was still a nice ride and certainly beat driving on old Route 66.

I might even get back to my old alma mater once in a while if a train went there.

 

[George Harris]

The Frisco Meteor took 14 hours between St. Louis and Oklahoma City in the early 1960's. It was a nice train up to around 1964-65 or so. In 1962 it still left St. Louis with 3 sleepers, one to Ft. Smith, Arkansas, one to Tulsa, and one to Oklahoma City. The other train was a day train named the Will Rogers. I think not much slower in overall time.

Having said this, I still doubt the viability of a St. Louis - Springfield MO train,particularly if they only have one round trip a day. The old Frisco main was never fast. St L to Spr is fairly curvey. Any speed limit obove the Frisco's 70 mph would be more for bragging that functionality due to the numerous restirctions for curves that made for very little of the line even being good for 70 mph.

From Sapulpa OK to Oklahoma City the line has been sold off for a short line, and I understand that it no longer has signals. It also was never fast.

Up until 1959 or so, the premier train on the line was the Texas Special which ran jointly with the MKT with the interchange point being Vinita, Oklahoma. It was a head to head competition with the Missouri Pacific's Texas Eagle, but never carried as heavy a load. It matched the TE's St L to Dallas time but did not meet the St L to San Antonio time, and did not get to Houston at all.

My feeling is that the state would be better off putting its money into making the St.L to KC times somewhat faster and more reliable and adding at least one train a day, maybe more to that route. Spruced up stations would be nice, also. If they could get some cooperation from their neighbors, KC ot Omaha would be a good thing, partly by extending StL-KC trains and partly new trains.

 

[como]

Thanks for sharing this information. I'll try to make the Jeff City meeting next week. In addition to the meetings there is an online survey with a section on passenger rail https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NDGMJF7

 

[dart330]

If MO goes for the Springfield - STL route, I think they will get a lot of business from OK. I currently live in OKC and would drive to Springfield to catch the train to STL or CHI.

There is currently a governor appointed group looking at starting rail service between OKC and Tulsa. If both of these actually become reality, the states really need to work together to connect them.

Because the state of KS has such an anti-rail stance, I would not be surprised to see OKC-Tulsa-Springfield-STL before the Heartland Flyer gets extended to Newton.

 

[trainviews]

My feeling is that the state would be better off putting its money into making the St.L to KC times somewhat faster and more reliable and adding at least one train a day, maybe more to that route. Spruced up stations would be nice, also. If they could get some cooperation from their neighbors, KC ot Omaha would be a good thing, partly by extending StL-KC trains and partly new trains.

I much agree. The corridor is still pretty lightly and slowly serviced, and the regional economic effects as well of the cost effectiveness of running the trains goes up with more frequencies and shorter/more reliable runs.

I also agree on the second part. For a relatively sparsely populated state like Missouri, connecting to neighboring population centers should be the perspective in new routes. The Springfield project could serve this if a connection to OKC/Tulsa is established, but there are others. George mentioned Omaha and also Memphis comes to mind (no idea if any feasible tracks exist, though, and politically Tennessee might be a hard nut to crack too)

 

[bretton88]

Kansas City to Omaha would be a major success. The station can handle two more roundtrips, and the busses are always packed. So there is demand. Since most of it is in MO, there probably wouldn't be a need to rely on another state's cooperation. The line is in good 79mph shape and fairly straight, though busy. It would allow excellent system connections too. MO should seriously pursue this leg.

 

[Anderson]

I'm just wondering, but is there a decent track from Springfield to Kansas City? I'm just wondering because if the Springfield-St. Louis line goes in and Oklahoma gets serious about linking OKC-Tulsa, Tulsa-Springfield might be a bit more successful with added connectivity up to Kansas City and Omaha.

 

[George Harris]

I'm just wondering, but is there a decent track from Springfield to Kansas City? I'm just wondering because if the Springfield-St. Louis line goes in and Oklahoma gets serious about linking OKC-Tulsa, Tulsa-Springfield might be a bit more successful with added connectivity up to Kansas City and Omaha.

Yes. Again, part of the old Frisco. This part has some of the straightest track they owned. However, if you want to do Kansas City to Tulsa, you could do it directly, not through Springfield. The all BNSF route, about 260 miles, formerly all Frisco, would be best.

 

[Anderson]

I'm just wondering, but is there a decent track from Springfield to Kansas City? I'm just wondering because if the Springfield-St. Louis line goes in and Oklahoma gets serious about linking OKC-Tulsa, Tulsa-Springfield might be a bit more successful with added connectivity up to Kansas City and Omaha.

Yes. Again, part of the old Frisco. This part has some of the straightest track they owned. However, if you want to do Kansas City to Tulsa, you could do it directly, not through Springfield. The all BNSF route, about 260 miles, formerly all Frisco, would be best.

Does the (direct) old Frisco route go through more of KS or MO? I'm just wondering from a practical standpoint, and I don't have my old Official Guide handy where I am. Also, how much more time would the Springfield "diversion" add vs. the straighter track condition (which from what you've said sounds like you could probably rework for some nicely high-speed trackage there without too much trouble).

 

[Karen]

Fellow Missourians! Now is the time to give your input on the new state rail plan, due out next April. The two main issues at these meetings, at least regarding passenger rail, are the improvements to the MORR and the possibility of new service St. Louis-Springfield. I know we've got several members in the KC and St. Louis areas, so let's let MoDOT know how much we love our trains! I know I'm planning to be there!

St. Louis meeting:

10/26 5:30-7:30 PM Kirkwood Amtrak Station

Kansas City meeting:

11/2 5:30-7:30 PM, Sermon Center in Independence

Springfield meeting:

11/3 5:30-7:30 PM, Springfield Area Chamber of Commerce

For more information, including other meetings around the state (sorry Hannibal/Quincy folks, I'm a little late for y'all) and a Powerpoint of meeting notes, see this link:

http://www.modot.org/newsandinfo/District0Release.shtml?action=displaySSI&newsId=129939

Why are we concerned about Springfield having a six hour train ride to St.Lois? Not enough people are going to want to do that. That sounds like a "program" to me. We don't need anything else created to drain more tax payer money away. We need things that add value and bring income into our cities. We need direct access from our airports to tourist attractions. Tourist attractions are things like Zoos, Plaza, Stadiums, Conventions centers...

 

[George Harris]

The Frisco was acquired by the Burlington Northern in the late 1970s. Burlington Northern merged with the Santa Fe years later.

Well, I've just got things all backwards, then.

Not altogether. Railroad histories can be very convoluted. That of the Frisco is more than many. Terher is a ratehr interesting history of the line that I have read, but not recently. However the ATSF was involved early on.

If I recall correctly, some of the Frisco land grants were taken by the ATSF as part of their main line. Also, teh original Frisco landgrant was found not to be legal in its entirity as part was in Indian Territory and not available to be granted.

 

[Anderson]

Fellow Missourians! Now is the time to give your input on the new state rail plan, due out next April. The two main issues at these meetings, at least regarding passenger rail, are the improvements to the MORR and the possibility of new service St. Louis-Springfield. I know we've got several members in the KC and St. Louis areas, so let's let MoDOT know how much we love our trains! I know I'm planning to be there!

St. Louis meeting:

10/26 5:30-7:30 PM Kirkwood Amtrak Station

Kansas City meeting:

11/2 5:30-7:30 PM, Sermon Center in Independence

Springfield meeting:

11/3 5:30-7:30 PM, Springfield Area Chamber of Commerce

For more information, including other meetings around the state (sorry Hannibal/Quincy folks, I'm a little late for y'all) and a Powerpoint of meeting notes, see this link:

http://www.modot.org...I&newsId=129939

Why are we concerned about Springfield having a six hour train ride to St.Lois? Not enough people are going to want to do that. That sounds like a "program" to me. We don't need anything else created to drain more tax payer money away. We need things that add value and bring income into our cities. We need direct access from our airports to tourist attractions. Tourist attractions are things like Zoos, Plaza, Stadiums, Conventions centers...

...huh? First of all, part of the reason for looking into this is to see if the plan is viable. Second, shall we get into a long and involved discussion about stadium projects that don't pan out, government-backed redevelopment plans that go bust, etc.?

 

[Ozark Southern]

Fellow Missourians! Now is the time to give your input on the new state rail plan, due out next April. The two main issues at these meetings, at least regarding passenger rail, are the improvements to the MORR and the possibility of new service St. Louis-Springfield. I know we've got several members in the KC and St. Louis areas, so let's let MoDOT know how much we love our trains! I know I'm planning to be there!

St. Louis meeting:

10/26 5:30-7:30 PM Kirkwood Amtrak Station

Kansas City meeting:

11/2 5:30-7:30 PM, Sermon Center in Independence

Springfield meeting:

11/3 5:30-7:30 PM, Springfield Area Chamber of Commerce

For more information, including other meetings around the state (sorry Hannibal/Quincy folks, I'm a little late for y'all) and a Powerpoint of meeting notes, see this link:

http://www.modot.org...I&newsId=129939

Why are we concerned about Springfield having a six hour train ride to St.Lois? Not enough people are going to want to do that. That sounds like a "program" to me. We don't need anything else created to drain more tax payer money away. We need things that add value and bring income into our cities. We need direct access from our airports to tourist attractions. Tourist attractions are things like Zoos, Plaza, Stadiums, Conventions centers...

...huh? First of all, part of the reason for looking into this is to see if the plan is viable. Second, shall we get into a long and involved discussion about stadium projects that don't pan out, government-backed redevelopment plans that go bust, etc.?

Exactly. And, given the developments to the existing services in Missouri and Illinois, we won't have a six hour train time. The people I've talked to about the possibility of new service are pretty well of the opinion that a six-hour trip is out of the question, but at 4 1/2 hours, they would at least consider the train. I remember as a kid, back when the 55 speed limit was still in effect, it took us about that long to get to my grandmother's house in St. Louis, so it's a timetable that could actually work.

As for the other locations, yes, Missouri is considering several options. The following is a list of what they're looking into, and none of these have even gotten to the first stage of planning. We're just investigating what Missourians want.

1. St. Louis-Kansas City, 90MPH greater frequencies

2. St. Louis-Kansas City 220MPH

3. St. Louis-Springfield-(Joplin)

3. Kansas City-Omaha

4. Kansas City-Springfield

5. Springfield-Memphis

6. St. Louis-Hannibal-Quincy, IL

7. Kansas City-Joplin

8. Jefferson City-Columbia-Quincy, IL

Like I said, most of these are unrealistic. What I would like to see eventually is three lines: the existing Kansas City-St. Louis-Chicago corridor, a new St. Louis-Springfield-Oklahoma City corridor, and a new Omaha-Kansas City-Springfield-Memphis corridor. That would get every one of our cities connected to the Amtrak network in meaningful ways.

 

[Anderson]

Is there a good Springfield, MO-Memphis, TN corridor? I ask because my first instinct here would be to revive the River Cities in some form rather than to run things through Springfield. I'm also inclined to suggest shooting for 110-125 MPH KCY-STL rather than 220 MPH on sheer cost grounds.

 

[dart330]

The BNSF line coming South out of KC splits at Ft Scott, KS and South-Eastward hits Springfield, MO - Jonesboro, AR - Memphis, TN - Birmingham, AL. I think the biggest issue with this is that it runs through KS so it would never happen. They would have to use the Kansas City Southern or the Missouri & Arkansas Railroad Company line between KC and where the BNSF line heads east from KS into MO.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Is there a good Springfield, MO-Memphis, TN corridor? I ask because my first instinct here would be to revive the River Cities in some form rather than to run things through Springfield. I'm also inclined to suggest shooting for 110-125 MPH KCY-STL rather than 220 MPH on sheer cost grounds.

The Springfield - Memphis former Frisco route is fairly curvey and since no passenger service since 1968 is probably capable of 40MPH. I traveled from Kansas City to Hoxie and Memphis on the Sunnyland and Kansas City-Florida Special in 1962-64....it was fairly slow going even then.

 

[Ozark Southern]

Is there a good Springfield, MO-Memphis, TN corridor? I ask because my first instinct here would be to revive the River Cities in some form rather than to run things through Springfield. I'm also inclined to suggest shooting for 110-125 MPH KCY-STL rather than 220 MPH on sheer cost grounds.

The Springfield - Memphis former Frisco route is fairly curvey and since no passenger service since 1968 is probably capable of 40MPH. I traveled from Kansas City to Hoxie and Memphis on the Sunnyland and Kansas City-Florida Special in 1962-64....it was fairly slow going even then.

No, I live along that corridor, and I frequently see trains running about 55MPH, judging by their speed relative to my 65MPH on the adjacent US-60. I'd suspect that passenger trains could probably do 65 without any modifications.

I agree completely on the HSR deal. 220MPH service is not a priority for Missouri. Once we've connected to Omaha, Tulsa, Memphis, Des Moines, and increased the MORR to 110MPH with about 6 trains per day, then if we are completely swamped with money, we can consider an HSR route. Otherwise I'd prefer more lines to faster speeds.

Also, I did attend the meeting today, and it seemed rather positive. Kristine Jamison, the project manager for the state rail plan, seemed to be of the opinion that a Springfield line still may not be viable, but was very positive about increasing speeds, reliability, and frequencies on the MORR. She even referenced a midday train during the presentation. Sign of things to come? I certainly hope so.