More information on Wisconsin's trains

[Kramerica]

I was at the Wisconsin Connections 2030 transportation plan meeting in Madison tonight. There I talked to Ron Adams of WisDOT, who has been working on the Talgos and the passenger rail plans for Wisconsin. Here's some information that I got from him. Of course after the meeting I kept thinking of things I should have asked.

Talgos:

- WisDOT is requiring the Talgos to run at 125 mph, and tested at 10% higher than that. He didn't seem to know or care if they went 220 mph or not.

- The 14 car set will be 13 coach cars and one car for hotel power and cab controls. No more cabbage for the Hiawatha. I didn't ask, but I presume that car will also have space for baggage.

- WisDOT wanted 13 coach cars because they wanted to increase the capacity of the train. Apparently some of their Hiawatha runs have 100 standing passengers.

- In the future when there are more train runs (17 to CHI to MKE, 7 MKE to GRB, 10 MKE to MSN), they'll seriously consider getting a cafe/diner.

- All coach seats will be identical. No business class. Coach will be 2x2 seating. The seat pitch will be 35-37 inches, about the same as the Horizons.

- The Talgo cars are about 45 feet long. The train will be about 100-200 feet longer than the current Hiawatha.

- At first a P42 will power the train. But they're going to be looking into buying a lighter, faster, sleeker engine to accelerate the train faster.

- I asked what the name would be; if it would just be the Hiawatha. He didn't know, because the problem is what happens when it finally goes to MSP? There is already a Hiawatha LRT there. Or when there is a train to GRB?

- No designs have been discussed for the exterior or for the interior colors.

Track:

- From MKE to Pewaukee it is already double-tracked. It will be double-tracked from Pewaukee to Watertown. The ROW is already there so that is easy. From Watertown to Madison it will be single track with passing sidings.

- The Feds have let WisDOT know that the High-Speed-Rail corridor is Chicago-Milwaukee-St Paul. There is no guaruntee that when the line goes to St Paul that it will start at Madison. It might just follow the EB route from Watertown to Portage. Plus there is another line in that area that will have to be studied.

- It is unknown whether the Empire Builder will go to Madison or not. Ron presumed it wouldn't because of the longer distance. Plus, the station platforms being planned won't be long enough for the EB.

- A new train shed for MKE is in the works. It will be much more open and let in more light. Instead of tunnels to access the other platforms, there will be bridges and elevators. Murals/Advertising for Milwaukee is going to be included.

- Getting higher speeds and more capacity on the MKE-CHI line will entail moving most freight to a parallel line and adding a third track in the Metra zone.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

- WisDOT wanted 13 coach cars because they wanted to increase the capacity of the train. Apparently some of their Hiawatha runs have 100 standing passengers.

How is that even possible? Aren't the Hiawathas all reserved trains? I can image a little standing room on occasion but I can't believe that over 100 people (thats one plus coaches worth) are just standing around.

 

[Kramerica]

- WisDOT wanted 13 coach cars because they wanted to increase the capacity of the train. Apparently some of their Hiawatha runs have 100 standing passengers.

How is that even possible? Aren't the Hiawathas all reserved trains? I can image a little standing room on occasion but I can't believe that over 100 people (thats one plus coaches worth) are just standing around.

The Hiawathas are unreserved. Buy a ticket and it is good for any Hiawatha in the next year.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

- WisDOT wanted 13 coach cars because they wanted to increase the capacity of the train. Apparently some of their Hiawatha runs have 100 standing passengers.

How is that even possible? Aren't the Hiawathas all reserved trains? I can image a little standing room on occasion but I can't believe that over 100 people (thats one plus coaches worth) are just standing around.

The Hiawathas are unreserved. Buy a ticket and it is good for any Hiawatha in the next year.

Fair enough.

 

[saxman]

- The Feds have let WisDOT know that the High-Speed-Rail corridor is Chicago-Milwaukee-St Paul. There is no guaruntee that when the line goes to St Paul that it will start at Madison. It might just follow the EB route from Watertown to Portage. Plus there is another line in that area that will have to be studied. - It is unknown whether the Empire Builder will go to Madison or not. Ron presumed it wouldn't because of the longer distance. Plus, the station platforms being planned won't be long enough for the EB.

It would be pretty silly to not have the Empire Builder stop in Madison. That would make that train even more crowded than it is. If its time they are worried about, I hardly think it would add that much if the tracks are at 110 mph. However, they may have to wait for the line from Madison to Portage is upgraded. I think that line may only be at 30 mph right now. If anything, there should be shuttle service from Madison to Columbus or the Dells to meet the EB.

Thats great about the MKE station. They did a great job on rebuilding the station itself, but the platform areas need to be revamped and lit up too.

 

[BigBlueBuddha]

I was at the Wisconsin Connections 2030 transportation plan meeting in Madison tonight. There I talked to Ron Adams of WisDOT, who has been working on the Talgos and the passenger rail plans for Wisconsin. Here's some information that I got from him. Of course after the meeting I kept thinking of things I should have asked. . .

Thanks for the nice update Kramerica! Good job!

 

[wrjensen]

Thanks for the update.

I still have not figure out how the are going to the the MKE-GBR

The route in not very direct out of MKE and the lines head north are not in great shape.

Here a map of WI rail lines.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/localgov/docs/railmap.pdf

 

[BigBlueBuddha]

Thanks for the update.
I still have not figure out how the are going to the the MKE-GBR

The route in not very direct out of MKE and the lines head north are not in great shape.

Here a map of WI rail lines.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/localgov/docs/railmap.pdf

Most likely, it'll be along the west side of Lake Winnebago. HWY 41 from Milwaukee-->Fond-du-Lac-->Oshkosh-->Appleton-->Green Bay is

extremely heavily traveled and I suspect that route make the most sense.

Many people commute between the west side of Winnebago and either Milwaukee or Green Bay (and also Madison for that matter).

 

[wrjensen]

Thanks for the update.
I still have not figure out how the are going to the the MKE-GBR

The route in not very direct out of MKE and the lines head north are not in great shape.

Here a map of WI rail lines.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/localgov/docs/railmap.pdf

Most likely, it'll be along the west side of Lake Winnebago. HWY 41 from Milwaukee-->Fond-du-Lac-->Oshkosh-->Appleton-->Green Bay is

extremely heavily traveled and I suspect that route make the most sense.

Many people commute between the west side of Winnebago and either Milwaukee or Green Bay (and also Madison for that matter).

Yep I was up there for the Air show few weeks ago. The traffic headed north on Friday was a mess. Looking at the connections the best route would be the CP to the CN. Any other route would require travel to get out of MKE or would require a connection to be built.

 

[Kramerica]

Most likely, it'll be along the west side of Lake Winnebago. HWY 41 from Milwaukee-->Fond-du-Lac-->Oshkosh-->Appleton-->Green Bay is extremely heavily traveled and I suspect that route make the most sense.

Yes, that's the route the GRB train would take eventually. But that's a long ways off.

I've been thinking about the Talgo train purchase and the more I think about it, the less excited I am. All coach, no cafe. Same seat pitch. Possibly no bike racks. If you're just looking for more capacity why not just add another Horizon or Amfleet to the existing train and save a boatload of money? Then put that money into track improvements.

 

[DET63]

Thanks for the update.
I still have not figure out how the are going to the the MKE-GBR

The route in not very direct out of MKE and the lines head north are not in great shape.

Here a map of WI rail lines.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/localgov/docs/railmap.pdf

I've looked at maps of the area, including Google maps, and seen that there are (or were) several railway lines between the two cities. It appears from the link above that some of those lines have been abandoned, gone "rails-to-trails," etc., however. In some cases, only part of the line has been completely abandoned, creating a gap in what would otherwise still be a plausible link. I would think that the rail companies would always want to keep a couple of lines between two points open, especially if an accident on one of them were to disrupt service and, lacking the alternative route, force either delays, much longer detours, or replacement by trucks.

 

[DaveKCMO]

seems like there's a coordinated effort nationwide for a large order of these trainsets to reduce unit cost and jolt the US back into railcar manufacturing.

 

[MattW]

seems like there's a coordinated effort nationwide for a large order of these trainsets to reduce unit cost and jolt the US back into railcar manufacturing.

Where do you see this? Is Georgia one of the customers?

 

[gswager]

I've been thinking about the Talgo train purchase and the more I think about it, the less excited I am. All coach, no cafe. Same seat pitch. Possibly no bike racks. If you're just looking for more capacity why not just add another Horizon or Amfleet to the existing train and save a boatload of money? Then put that money into track improvements.

Don't give up! Persuade the lawmakers to put cafe or use a cafe "cart", just like in airlines. Business class can be doable by modifying it later on. So are the bike racks. Or a baggage car? It is probably too early to order.

Probably Amtrak is in shortage of cars right now. I rather to have the states order its own fleets than Amtrak's. We could need more long distance routes or make a trainset longer.

Nothing is perfect. Just patience. :unsure:

 

[DaveKCMO]

seems like there's a coordinated effort nationwide for a large order of these trainsets to reduce unit cost and jolt the US back into railcar manufacturing.

Where do you see this? Is Georgia one of the customers?

oregon.

http://www.statesmanjournal.com/article/20...0341/1042/STATE

 

[frj1983]

Thanks for the update.
I still have not figure out how the are going to the the MKE-GBR

The route in not very direct out of MKE and the lines head north are not in great shape.

Here a map of WI rail lines.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/localgov/docs/railmap.pdf

Most likely, it'll be along the west side of Lake Winnebago. HWY 41 from Milwaukee-->Fond-du-Lac-->Oshkosh-->Appleton-->Green Bay is

extremely heavily traveled and I suspect that route make the most sense.

Many people commute between the west side of Winnebago and either Milwaukee or Green Bay (and also Madison for that matter).

Yes it would have to go on the west side of Lake Winnebago as the tracks north of Sheboygan/Manitowac have not been used in many a year...while it is still there, the last time I saw it, the track and roadbed were in poor shape. Plus there are more possible passenger loads by going up the west side!

 

[jis]

seems like there's a coordinated effort nationwide for a large order of these trainsets to reduce unit cost and jolt the US back into railcar manufacturing.

Where do you see this? Is Georgia one of the customers?

oregon.

http://www.statesmanjournal.com/article/20...0341/1042/STATE

Yes Oregon might get a few more. But it is not at all clear that Talgo will be the primary chocie forcorridor equipment across the board. It is more likely that bi-level corridor cars like the Surfliner would be bought in more numerous numbers than Talgo for use in corridor service outside of the North East. And in the North East unmodified Talgos are unlikely to find any use because they don't work well with 4' high platforms.