More Night Trains for Europe

[caravanman]

Who translates for you here in the Colonies Eddie?

Dunno, I guess I might be better at languages than I realised!

More interestingly, who does it in the Colonies of South Asia?

India can be more tricky. I loved the old fashioned English words still in use when I first visited in 1983. Recently, although English is very widely spoken, accents can be tricky to tune in to. I love to hear a stream of Hindi, punctuated by a few English words!

 

[jis]

India can be more tricky. I loved the old fashioned English words still in use when I first visited in 1983. Recently, although English is very widely spoken, accents can be tricky to tune in to. I love to hear a stream of Hindi, punctuated by a few English words!

India has its own "English" or "Inglish" as the case may be, with almost as many people speaking a smattering of it there as there are English speakers in the US. It has its own unique set of additional words, phrases and constructs, not even to speak of the accents. It is generally easy to guess where a person comes from in India from their English accent. Afterall India is almost a continent unto itself. In the series that PBS did on the English language, they devoted one complete episode on "Inglish".

Then there is the unique mixed grammar sentences between English and some regional language or the other or two. This gets exciting because the English sentence form is SVO (Subject - Verb - Object) whereas most Indian languages have a sentence form SOV. So you can guess what happens when you create mixed sentences. Some are SVO and some are SOV with the right words in whatever language plugged into their appropriate spot. It is fascinating really. But to us who have been brought up since birth in that environment, we don't even notice the jumble and carry on merrily leaving others baffled from time to time. Fortunately we don't usually do this in the presence of people who are not fluent in the languages involved.

This also goes to show how misplaced the worries of monolinguals are about the "confusion" caused by knowing more than one language. It is confusion as it appears to the monolinguals alone. It all is quite natural to the ones using multiple languages. Afterall languages were spoken well before anyone dreamed up documenting the grammar. The first documented grammar was allegedly put together by the sage Panini for the Sanskrit language.

 

[Bob Dylan]

India has its own "English" or "Inglish" as the case may be, with almost as many people speaking a smattering of it there as there are English speakers in the US. It has its own unique set of additional words, phrases and constructs, not even to speak of the accents. It is generally easy to guess where a person comes from in India from their English accent. Afterall India is almost a continent unto itself. In the series that PBS did on the English language, they devoted one complete episode on "Inglish".

Then there the unique mixed grammar sentences between English and some regional language or the other or two. This gets exciting because the English sentence form is SVO (Subject - Verb - Object) whereas most Indian languages have a sentence form SOV. So you can guess what happens when you create mixed sentences. Some are SVO and some are SOV with the right words in whatever language plugged into their appropriate spot. It is fascinating really. But to us who have been brought up since birth in that environment, we don't even notice the jumble and carry on merrily leaving others baffled from time to time. Fortunately we don;t do this in the presence of people who are not fluent in all the languages involved, usually.

This also goes to show how misplaced the worries of monolinguals are about the "confusion" caused by knowing more than one language. It is confusion as it appears to the monolinguals alone. It all is quite natural to the ones using multiple languages. Afterall languages were spoken well before anyone dreamed up documenting the grammar. The first documented grammar was allegedly put together by the sage Panini for the Sanskrit language.

Same thing in Mexico, where there are Local and Regional Versions of Spanish,English,Spanglish and TexMex, and Multiple Mixtures of Slang and different meanings for the same Words..

Not to mention the fact that many of the descendents of the Original inhabitants, the Indios,don't speak English or Spanish but multiple dialects of their Native Languages.

 

[west point]

Watching all the English language series from the UK is interesting. One biggie for us is the lack of usage of word == the. Example in last sentence. But going to hospital, pub, train station, etc. It can be confusing.

 

[west point]

When we rode night trains in Europe the short routes would have make up time at a station. We actually spent 2 - 3 hours not moving but got to destination on time. Wonder if some older TGV type trains could be modified for sleeping and make runs of 500 - 600 miles at night ?

 

[slasher-fun]

Well that's already the distance covered by conventional rolling stock

 

[cirdan]

When we rode night trains in Europe the short routes would have make up time at a station. We actually spent 2 - 3 hours not moving but got to destination on time. Wonder if some older TGV type trains could be modified for sleeping and make runs of 500 - 600 miles at night ?

Before RENFE started pulling out of the whole night train business and the Trenhotel was still a brand they were proud of, there was talk of Barcelona to Brussels and I think even Barcelona to Berlin night trains using a new generation of Talgo sleepers. I haven't done the calculations but am assuming that such a train would have required at least some stretches of faster running, especially seeing high speed lines are not available contiguously all the way.

 

[west point]

About conversion' ; Is the TGV mail train(s) still operating ?/

 

[Bob Dylan]

When we rode night trains in Europe the short routes would have make up time at a station. We actually spent 2 - 3 hours not moving but got to destination on time. Wonder if some older TGV type trains could be modified for sleeping and make runs of 500 - 600 miles at night ?

This is what the VIA Night Train between Montreal and Toronto used to do.

It would leave Montreal around 10pm, stop and spend most of the night @ Brockville, then arrive into Toronto @ 8AM for a Cross Platform transfer to the Canadian on the days it ran!

I really enjoyed this Train the times I rode it!( after riding the Adirondack from NYP)

 

[slasher-fun]

Before RENFE started pulling out of the whole night train business and the Trenhotel was still a brand they were proud of, there was talk of Barcelona to Brussels and I think even Barcelona to Berlin night trains using a new generation of Talgo sleepers. I haven't done the calculations but am assuming that such a train would have required at least some stretches of faster running, especially seeing high speed lines are not available contiguously all the way.

An hypothetical Berlin-Barcelona high-speed train would take 15 hours with the current infrastructure...
Bruxelles-Barcelona would be easier.

About conversion' ; Is the TGV mail train(s) still operating ?/

No, discontinued in 2015, as there was not enough "next business day" mail to carry anymore to make it economically sustainable.

 

[cirdan]

About conversion' ; Is the TGV mail train(s) still operating ?/

nope, discontinued a few years ago.

I think there was a private operator who stepped up and wanted to use the trains for parcels but nothing ever came of it.

 

[slasher-fun]

Not exactly a private operator: Euro Carex is a project for an European HSR freight network, but so far... nothing.
https://www.eurocarex.fr/?setlang=en

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Brand new sleeper trains are now under construction by Siemens, the first 13 7-car sets are due in service on routes from Vienna & Munich to Italy from December 2022 with another 20 7-car sets to be delivered for other routes after that. The new trains consist of 7 car sets: 2 sleepers (each with 10 compartments, all with en suite shower & toilet), 3 couchette cars (with 3 x 4-berth compartments and 28 x innovative sole-occupancy capsules or 'minisuites'), 1 multi-purpose car (with low-floor entry, an accessible couchette compartment & accessible toilet, some seating), and 1 seats car. For more information on these new trains, see this page on www.nightjet.com.

This is from Seat61.

So in recap the pods sleeper and traditional Couchette are contain in the same railcar. The sleepers are all deluxe rooms. There is now a accessible sleeper with the odds and ends, and a full coach. Also Seat61 has a link to a video of the new design.

 

[west point]

7 car train sets will allow some to double up for some or all of a route.

 

[Anderson]

7 car train sets will allow some to double up for some or all of a route.

And the subsequent 20-car order suggests this is the plan. Since they're going with "sets" vs "cars", I'm guessing that they'll be able to run some "double sets" together, but the service capacity "step" isn't a full 14-car train so they can move capacity around a bit more efficiently on a day-to-day or season-to-season basis.

And is it just me or do those couchette-variant cars sound an awful lot like a Slumbercoach?

 

[cirdan]

And the subsequent 20-car order suggests this is the plan. Since they're going with "sets" vs "cars", I'm guessing that they'll be able to run some "double sets" together, but the service capacity "step" isn't a full 14-car train so they can move capacity around a bit more efficiently on a day-to-day or season-to-season basis.

And is it just me or do those couchette-variant cars sound an awful lot like a Slumbercoach?

I think the "double sets" comes from the fact that many night trains run combined for sections of the route. For example when I rode the Nighjet from Vienna to Zürich I was surprised to discover that on leaving Vienna, the same train also had a portion for Munich and a portion for Venice. On arriving in Zurich there was a portion from Prague and a portion from Budapest. Being able to combine sections presumably saves manning and track access costs.

 

[Anderson]

I think the "double sets" comes from the fact that many night trains run combined for sections of the route. For example when I rode the Nighjet from Vienna to Zürich I was surprised to discover that on leaving Vienna, the same train also had a portion for Munich and a portion for Venice. On arriving in Zurich there was a portion from Prague and a portion from Budapest. Being able to combine sections presumably saves manning and track access costs.

Oh, that's got nothing on the mess the trains running through Prague do. IIRC there was a car for Dresden/Berlin (mine), a car for Warsaw, a car for Krakow, and I think there was one other (Danzig, maybe?). The whole mess met up with a few other trains in Prague, they swapped cars, and a decent-sized train turned up in Berlin all the same.

 

[Anderson]

Commenting on the following:

Apparently true for all their system. A person I worked with several years ago spent several days in France with riding the TGV being a significant part of their trip. They came back extremely disappointed.

And: Initially the track layout for the Taiwan High Speed Rail was done by a French-German group (after watching these in action you quit wondering why so many wars, and started wondering how they managed to have so few), basically using French operating concepts. After they were invited to go away, and not for the political reasons they claimed, a group formed by the Shinkansen came in and the system ultimately used their trains, signals, power, and track. One of their first questions was, "why so many 'escape hatches' in the system?" Truly after listing to all the French explanations it seemed to worthy of national news if a train made it through the day without breakdown. Among other things, their operational times were based on a certain percentage of traction motors being out of service. The Japanese looked at all this and said basically, if we are not 99.9999% sure the train will not reliably make it through the day, it will not go in service, and we make certain our shops perform thorough and timely maintenance. But then the Shinkansen has been operating much longer than the TGV and probably carries more passenger per day than the TGV does per month.

I think there were probably cultural issues at issue, not political issues. Remember, Taiwan was owned by Japan for over half a century...there's a lot of cultural affinity there, and I think it ultimately meant that the Japanese operating principles meshed better than did the French operating principles.

 

[Seaboard92]

I think there is a gigantic market for night trains in Europe. Now Eastern Europe never really moved away from the night train whereas western europe did. Central Europe held onto them longer than most and that is where we are seeing the rebirth of them. OBB has done a great service by providing night trains but it can't be the catch all end all of their development either.

What made Deutsche Bahn a really good operator is they are the country that is between western and eastern Europe and they are large enough that they can have more than one hub. München, Frankfurt, Köln, and Berlin are all natural hubs that all have a connection be it cultural, touristic, or business between the other large cities of Europe like Rome, Venice, Paris, Brussels, Warsaw, Budapest, among others. Germany had a good location for a hub and spoke network because it is in Central Europe which is essentially a gigantic crossroads. Which is also why most of the larger wars in human history like the 30 Years War occurred on German soil. Basically Germany is the equivalent of Chicago to the rail network of the USA. It's super big, and in the dead center of it all.

Austria is just a bit too far south to really play into the hub and spoke system so while it is great that OBB has saved the Night Train it's growth is relatively stunted because of it's location in Europe. Unless NightJet becomes an open access operator serving domestic markets and fifth freedom routes outside of Austria/Germany.

The biggest hub I see in Western Europe is Paris, with a very small more regional in nature hub in Barcelona.

In Central Europe Zürich stands out to me as somewhere that has a lot of growth potential. Somewhere I have made an interactive map of European night services. I should find that again. If I remember right Romania had a lot of trains.

 

[Mailliw]

I found another article on Midnight Trains; it appears they are going to have capsule sleeper option like Nightjet. That's a good sign.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Add on order? Nobody has a capsule sleeper yet, nothing but a few drawings so far. These folks have money behind them, however the emails you can sign up from them are romantic tales of past rail travels.

 

[Seaboard92]

I think the new Russian 3rd Class Sleepers were moving more towards the capsule

 

[Willbridge]

I think there is a gigantic market for night trains in Europe. Now Eastern Europe never really moved away from the night train whereas western europe did. Central Europe held onto them longer than most and that is where we are seeing the rebirth of them. OBB has done a great service by providing night trains but it can't be the catch all end all of their development either.

What made Deutsche Bahn a really good operator is they are the country that is between western and eastern Europe and they are large enough that they can have more than one hub. München, Frankfurt, Köln, and Berlin are all natural hubs that all have a connection be it cultural, touristic, or business between the other large cities of Europe like Rome, Venice, Paris, Brussels, Warsaw, Budapest, among others. Germany had a good location for a hub and spoke network because it is in Central Europe which is essentially a gigantic crossroads. Which is also why most of the larger wars in human history like the 30 Years War occurred on German soil. Basically Germany is the equivalent of Chicago to the rail network of the USA. It's super big, and in the dead center of it all.

Austria is just a bit too far south to really play into the hub and spoke system so while it is great that OBB has saved the Night Train it's growth is relatively stunted because of it's location in Europe. Unless NightJet becomes an open access operator serving domestic markets and fifth freedom routes outside of Austria/Germany.

The biggest hub I see in Western Europe is Paris, with a very small more regional in nature hub in Barcelona.

In Central Europe Zürich stands out to me as somewhere that has a lot of growth potential. Somewhere I have made an interactive map of European night services. I should find that again. If I remember right Romania had a lot of trains.

Berlin is the Chicago of Europe in a lot of ways, though Americans mainly think of its government role. Metropolitan Berlin was tapped by commuter rail lines before the initial subway U-Bahn lines were built. One of the many reasons that the former German Democratic Republic wanted the western Allies out of Berlin in the Cold War was that we could watch their freight traffic that had to move on the Outer Ring Line, the German counterpart to the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern.

It was disappointing when the Deutsche Bahn played "Southern Pacific" in its treatment of CityNightLine. At the end the Amsterdam<>Berlin train was a stop on the Amsterdam<>Warsaw route, with an eastbound Berlin arrival before much of the transit system was up and running.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Keeping the Siemens Factory busy.
News release from Siemens.

We’re happy to announce that we will build 20 additional night #trains for @unsereOEBB
.

A total of 33 next-generation #Nightjets will be in service by 2025, providing eco-friendly overnight connections in Europe.

 

[Mailliw]

Great news! I can't wait to see more pics and layouts of the actual cars.