New Amtrak Proposed Routes Map has Dropped

[sttom]

Shovel ready or not, the original map is pretty pathetic and I can imagine the service levels being as underwhelming. Most of these added lines are going to add what 4 round trips per day max, some will be 2 and some 1. I know some would run more than that by 2035 (I hope at least) but still this is pretty pathetic. I know someone will say something to the effect of "this is a 30% increase in service, how dare you speak ill of it!!!" But should we happy with this after a decade of effectively no growth? 2% growth annually may be better than 0%, but being happy with it because some lines are "shovel ready" or some legislators have had their fancy tickled or the dumbest reason in my opinion, "this map is practical". I'm linking something that's 16 or so extra corridors on top of theirs, a few extensions of theirs, 9 long distance routes and 3 overnight routes and that is largely doable over 15 years. For a 15 year business plan, this is beyond pathetic. I didn't even check to see how much this would cost, but I can't see it either 1) being very much in the grande scheme of things or 2) their asking for funding to clear the NEC's maintenance back log and this is the pittance they'll promise the rest of us plebs to keep our Senators happy.

 

[niemi24s]

As long as we're dreaming something really big, why not a route linking the Northeast to Quebec City, QC, CA?

 

[Matthew H Fish]

To me, this map looks like a good way to add in some basic corridor service in populated, obvious areas. And that is good.

But for being a long-term map, 14 years, it doesn't seem to be transformative. It doesn't seem to be an attempt to move rail travel out of a very distant third place for travel options. So I would have liked something a bit more ambitious.

But on the other hand, this might be just an attempt at managing expectations.Is this a list of routes that they are reasonably certain will be working by 2035? And they have a larger "wish list" in development?

 

[Rover]

Maybe because there are no people between Dallas and Denver.

Never much was.... it's a point to point service.

 

[neroden]

This map is very much the low-hanging fruit: mostly projects with large advocacy groups, EISs, and state or local government backing, often even with funding already. Plus the Detroit-Toledo link which most people consider a no-brainer. The only exception is Eau Claire, where I don't really remember much advocacy (maybe there's someone from Eau Claire in Amtrak's department developing this...)

 

[neroden]

They built a train Station in Moline Illinois that would go to Chicago. But that isn't happening now because a farmer is refusing to give up any of his land.

First I've heard of this. They can, and will, use eminent domain; it just slows things down.

 

[neroden]

I wonder if it's basically all the "shovel-ready" (or close to it) corridor services that have been studied for years but haven't gotten funding to start operation. The disjointedness and randomness suggests that, since there's no real cohesiveness to it in terms of a national network for additional services.

IMO, pretty much, though it's missing a few and someone added Eau Claire to the list.

 

[Larry H.]

I take it that the new map of western long distance trains is not from Amtrak... Seems like all they want to do is increase short lines in the eastern part of the nation. Those suggested new western routes would go a long way to increasing ridership and is what is really missing from Amtrak as its now set up. Oddly I sent Senator Durbin of Illinois yesterday asking him to see why almost all the new lines are east of the Mississippi. And suggested he look into far more connections in the western states so that rail travel would be a lot more convenient to those who wish to travel by rail. I pointed out how being near Centralia Illinois it used to be you could take the train to St. Louis and it took about a hour an a half. When they removed that those who do wish to use rail have to pay an go to Chicago, a five hour trip and then pay for a 5 hour trip to St. Louis. Thats about how crazy the lack of other Hubs is. Of course my guess is that he is fine with every thing going into Chicago, but time will tell.

 

[jis]

This map is very much the low-hanging fruit: mostly projects with large advocacy groups, EISs, and state or local government backing, often even with funding already. Plus the Detroit-Toledo link which most people consider a no-brainer. The only exception is Eau Claire, where I don't really remember much advocacy (maybe there's someone from Eau Claire in Amtrak's department developing this...)

Frankly I don't see who they think will actually fund the proposed intra-state service in Florida. FDOT most certainly won't. DeSantis will probably try to sign an executive order banning such for all you know.

It may be workable in one scenario wherein, such a service is started using Feddybucks and then the Republicans are swept out of power in Florida before the largesse of Freddybucks ends. Otherwise it will most likely suffer the same fate as Silver Palm V1.

 

[Palmetto]

As long as we're dreaming something really big, why not a route linking the Northeast to Quebec City, QC, CA?

Because we're not thinking "big"? The map is very corridor centric, and while not bad, the first word in Amtrak's original name is "National". I think the West deserves a few more former routes to achieve connectivity with the rest of the system. I'm thinking L.A. to Salt Lake City, and Portland, OR or Seattle to Denver.

 

[Cal]

Because we're not thinking "big"? The map is very corridor centric, and while not bad, the first word in Amtrak's original name is "National". I think the West deserves a few more former routes to achieve connectivity with the rest of the system. I'm thinking L.A. to Salt Lake City, and Portland, OR or Seattle to Denver.

Both of those are routes that would be covered in them restoring the Pioneer and Desert Wind, which something I think all of us want...

 

[Matthew H Fish]

The problem with the Western Routes now is mostly how difficult North/South movement is anywhere between the Pacific Coast and Chicago. Even before the pandemic, to get from Salt Lake City to Spokane involves...two days of travel? With two long layovers. SLC to Spokane is not exactly a corridor, but there are probably enough people along the routes of the Empire Builder and the California Zephyr who would want to travel to cities along either line, without going to California/Portland or Chicago.

The planned map actually does something for that in the east, because people will be able to go from Dallas to Albuquerque without having to go through LA or St. Louis. But for a 14 year plan, that seems like a pretty minimal improvement.

 

[WICT106]

This map looks as though someone at Amtrak looked through all of the State Rail Plans from the past couple of years/ decades, and simply put them all on a map. Search through the ISTEA- 21 map from the Federal DOT, find the map of the 11 "corridors," and compare this map to that one. For example, the entire WI State Rail Plan passenger "wish list" appears on this map.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Both of those are routes that would be covered in them restoring the Pioneer and Desert Wind, which something I think all of us want...

I not sure the restoration of these routes, which travel through miles and miles of unpopulated areas, is necessarily a good idea. The establishment of corridors around the country serving cities that are currently underserved, or not served at all, would be a much better idea.

 

[MikefromCrete]

This map looks as though someone at Amtrak looked through all of the State Rail Plans from the past couple of years/ decades, and simply put them all on a map. Search through the ISTEA- 21 map from the Federal DOT, find the map of the 11 "corridors," and compare this map to that one. For example, the entire WI State Rail Plan passenger "wish list" appears on this map.

So these are all routes that state and local governments interested in, and in many cases, are well beyond the "wish list" status. It makes much more sense to work on these projects, rather than somebody's pipe dream.

 

[Cal]

I not sure the restoration of these routes, which travel through miles and miles of unpopulated areas, is necessarily a good idea. The establishment of corridors around the country serving cities that are currently underserved, or not served at all, would be a much better idea.

They would allow for the likes of Salt Lake City and Denver to have a one seat ride to the Pacific Northwest and SoCal, in addition to bringing back service to Las Vegas. I think it should be restored. However, the corridors should still be there too.

 

[MisterUptempo]

This map is very much the low-hanging fruit: mostly projects with large advocacy groups, EISs, and state or local government backing, often even with funding already. Plus the Detroit-Toledo link which most people consider a no-brainer. The only exception is Eau Claire, where I don't really remember much advocacy (maybe there's someone from Eau Claire in Amtrak's department developing this...)

Minnesota DOT has had Eau Claire-MSP service on their wish list for a long time. It's one of many Phase I routes they've been considering.


There is also an advocacy group, the West Central Wisconsin Rail Coalition, that has been promoting a new Eau Claire train for about six years. The city of Eau Claire set up the Chippewa-St. Croix Rail Commission in January, to work with the towns that would be served by a new train to MSP.

 

[SanDiegan]

This map looks as though someone at Amtrak looked through all of the State Rail Plans from the past couple of years/ decades, and simply put them all on a map. Search through the ISTEA- 21 map from the Federal DOT, find the map of the 11 "corridors," and compare this map to that one. For example, the entire WI State Rail Plan passenger "wish list" appears on this map.

The interns strike again !

 

[Palmetto]

I not sure the restoration of these routes, which travel through miles and miles of unpopulated areas, is necessarily a good idea. The establishment of corridors around the country serving cities that are currently underserved, or not served at all, would be a much better idea.

I don't think the SWC, the Sunset, and the CZ are any different regarding traveling through unpopulated areas, really. I think that the concept of both corridors AND long distance trains could be pursued, not solely one or the other, if that's what you meant to imply.

 

[Kramerica]

Agreed - I wouldn't be surprised if the Hiawatha basically becomes a "trunk line" service with most frequencies extending beyond Chicago, whether it's to Green Bay, MSP via three(?) different routes, and/or a frequency or two stopping at Madison. The current proposed second daily train to Chicago is basically suggested as an extension of a Hiawatha train, so unless track layouts dictate otherwise I'd expect the other routes to be essentially extensions of the Hiawatha Line.

The 2008 Hiawatha extension to Madison had an ultimate buildout of 17 daily trains CHI/MKE, with 10 of them continuing to Madison and 7 of them continuing to Green Bay.

The Eau Claire route is a bit of a mystery to me. The study for the 2nd daily for CHI/MKE/MSP did include this routing as an alternate. But that alternate has not been chosen (it will follow the existing Empire Builder route) and I don't think there is another study or plan for Eau Claire.

The 2nd daily CHI/MKE/MSP route is well on its way to running by 2024, with or without this new federal money. (it is very much being driven by Minnesota, and Wisconsin is playing along and not contributing nearly as much money) Wisconsin has the will to improve frequency on the MKE/CHI Hiawatha, but currently is being held back by northern Illinois NIMBYs. (longer passing tracks for freight trains to idle)

Unfortunately, given the current political climate in Wisconsin, I don't see how the route to Green Bay or the direct Madison access would happen.

 

[Willbridge]

The problem with the Western Routes now is mostly how difficult North/South movement is anywhere between the Pacific Coast and Chicago. Even before the pandemic, to get from Salt Lake City to Spokane involves...two days of travel? With two long layovers. SLC to Spokane is not exactly a corridor, but there are probably enough people along the routes of the Empire Builder and the California Zephyr who would want to travel to cities along either line, without going to California/Portland or Chicago.

The planned map actually does something for that in the east, because people will be able to go from Dallas to Albuquerque without having to go through LA or St. Louis. But for a 14 year plan, that seems like a pretty minimal improvement.

I did the first study of a Portland section of the Empire Builder for the Oregon DOT in 1976 and of course I recommended running from Pasco to Portland via Villard Junction which would have put the train through The Dalles and Hood River, the original transcon mash-up to Portland. That would have offered a connection with the Pioneer. Fortunately -- given how the UP became a dispatching mess -- Amtrak stayed on the North Bank route.

Throughout the life of the Pioneer there were brave or foolhardy travelers who used taxis between The Dalles and Wishram or between Hood River and Bingen. When tri-weekly schedules were imposed that connection was strongly discouraged.

Another victim of try-weakly and layoffs of the knowledgeable people in DC was a next step that we discussed -- a through LAX<>PDX<>CHI sleeper replacing one LAX<>SEA and the PDX<>CHI sleeper. Local Portland staff responded to that missing link by instituting their own Metropolitan Lounge.

 

[Willbridge]

The 2008 Hiawatha extension to Madison had an ultimate buildout of 17 daily trains CHI/MKE, with 10 of them continuing to Madison and 7 of them continuing to Green Bay.

The Eau Claire route is a bit of a mystery to me. The study for the 2nd daily for CHI/MKE/MSP did include this routing as an alternate. But that alternate has not been chosen (it will follow the existing Empire Builder route) and I don't think there is another study or plan for Eau Claire.

The 2nd daily CHI/MKE/MSP route is well on its way to running by 2024, with or without this new federal money. (it is very much being driven by Minnesota, and Wisconsin is playing along and not contributing nearly as much money) Wisconsin has the will to improve frequency on the MKE/CHI Hiawatha, but currently is being held back by northern Illinois NIMBYs. (longer passing tracks for freight trains to idle)

Unfortunately, given the current political climate in Wisconsin, I don't see how the route to Green Bay or the direct Madison access would happen.

Stranger things than Eau Claire have happened. The Empire Builder went via Yakima because a member of the original Amtrak board was the former congresswoman from that area. She called Senator Magnusson ("Maggie! He can do more for Washington!") to clear it with him. He suggested running one way via Wenatchee and the other way via Yakima. She said she had already asked about that, but "they" said there would be problems. So Maggie blessed the line through Yakima based on population. Washington population that is. It made the trip for Portland longer by missing connections, which is why I was green-lighted at ODOT to work on a Portland<>Pasco connection.

 

[neroden]

The problem with the Western Routes now is mostly how difficult North/South movement is anywhere between the Pacific Coast and Chicago. Even before the pandemic, to get from Salt Lake City to Spokane involves...two days of travel? With two long layovers. SLC to Spokane is not exactly a corridor, but there are probably enough people along the routes of the Empire Builder and the California Zephyr who would want to travel to cities along either line, without going to California/Portland or Chicago.

The planned map actually does something for that in the east, because people will be able to go from Dallas to Albuquerque without having to go through LA or St. Louis. But for a 14 year plan, that seems like a pretty minimal improvement.

You have to remember how *depopulated* the Mountain Time Zone and the western half of the Central Time Zone actually is.

If you want to provide north-south routes, you're going to help a lot more people with a Chicago-Louisville-Nashville-Atlanta route, or closer to me, Syracuse-Binghamton-Scranton-Allentown-Philadelphia, than with anything in the Mountain Time Zone. I could also point out the missing east-west routes from St Louis to Indianapolis and Cincy, and the missing east-west routes from Dallas to Birmingham and Atlanta, and from Little Rock to Memphis, and east-west across Tennessee and Kentucky. Or indeed the Florida Panhandle route which everyone wants back.

Because population densities are so much higher in the East, any one of these routes would end up serving a lot more people than a Montana to Colorado route. Of course, they're also missing from Amtrak's uninspired map.

 

[AM_ROAD]

I know I am late to the party on this, but I really don't see this helping. I would rather focus on a few projected high rail speed corridors and focus on that. I know we are love LD trains, but we need high speed rail corridors with the track bed and right of way. I would rather have 2 practical options like that to be invested with than 5-7 new routes over freight rail. However, some options like Scranton with the return of the old Lackawanna Cut Off is great since NJ Transit is already working on it.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I know I am late to the party on this, but I really don't see this helping. I would rather focus on a few projected high rail speed corridors and focus on that. I know we are love LD trains, but we need high speed rail corridors with the track bed and right of way. I would rather have 2 practical options like that to be invested with than 5-7 new routes over freight rail. However, some options like Scranton with the return of the old Lackawanna Cut Off is great since NJ Transit is already working on it.

Which 2 would you pick?