No heat at night

[NYC_Writer]

I just completed a trip on the Silver Star, train #92, from Tampa to New York City. While the trip was mostly okay there was a situation that I would like to run by the forum. The heating system did not work at night. I spoke with our car attendant (car 9211) the first evening around 7:00 PM when I noticed that the heat would not come on in my roomette. He said that a technician had told him that if he turned on a certain switch for the heat the rooms would get too hot. During the night it got really chilly. In the morning the attendant did get up at 6:00 AM or so and turned on the heat for a awhile. During the morning breakfast I talked with others who also said there was no heat at night. One Australian couple who were staying in a bedroom in the adjoining sleeper car (car 9210) also said that the heat was off all night. I heard them talking with their attendant who gave them a puzzled look when they complained, then said he would "reset" things to see if that would help. By that time, of course, it was too late since we were all up and about and the sun was warming up things. Neither attendant would be committal about whether the heating system was actually broken.

The whole thing seems odd to me, as I have never had a heat problem on Amtrak before and neither attendant seemed open about sharing information about the heat. Furthermore, on other matters both attendants were quite friendly and helpful.

Anyone else experience anything similar?

Anyhow, I sent an email with the above details to Amtrak using their website, with the idea that someone should inspect those cars to fix any problems. Someone on the train also suggested writing a surface mail letter to the president of Amtrak. Can someone provide the address-- I cannot seem to find it anywhere.

Oh -- I should also mention the dining car was not working the first night because there was a problem with the water system. The crew ordered in sandwiches for us.

Other than that - the scenery was great!

 

[AlanB]

I've never had a problem with the heating before, which is not to say that it can't happen, but I've had 2 situations with the AC. On the CZ a few years back the AC in our car wasn't working properly, so it got quite warm in our car during the daylight hours. Then on the Crescent about 3 years ago we had a hyper-active AC system. It was way too cold in the car, despite it being nearly 90 outside. In fact, as we rolled down the NEC, our sleeping car attendant wisely ordered extra blankets from the comissary in DC to hand out to all her passengers.

 

[Gord]

I had a defective thermostat in a Viewliner roomette on the LSL a couple of years back. The heat wouldn't shut off so it got pretty uncomfortable. The rest of the rooms and the corridor were fine.

Gord

 

[Grandpa D]

Last fall I had a TE superliner roomette in which the heat would not turn off. It got so bad I couldn't hold my hand on the wall underneath the heater vent. When we finally found the LSA he tried to turn off our room and when that didn't work he turned off the heat for the entire car. That worked. It wasn't all that cold outside.

 

[TraneMan]

I know I am going off track here.. What is used for heat on these train? Heat Pump/Electric heat strips or Hot water from the engine?

 

[pdxjim]

I experienced no heat on the CL from Pittsburgh to Chicago in roomette last November and on the EB from Chicago to Seattle (also roomette). A call to Customer Relations and they mailed me a voucher.

On the CS a few weeks ago, Sacramento to Portland, same deal, no heat in a roomette. I took a walk to view out the rear window and the coach there was freezing. All the passengers were bundled in blankets.

I would have stayed in the Parlour Car, but it was broken due to flat wheels. The substitute CCC was not very comfortable, so I put on a sweatshirt and asked for another blanket.

Another call to Customer Relations and another voucher was mailed.

 

[zephyr17]

I know I am going off track here.. What is used for heat on these train? Heat Pump/Electric heat strips or Hot water from the engine?

Electric heat. 3 phase 480 VAC HEP (Head-End Power) from engine. Everything powered off that. One of the hallmarks of a passenger engine today is ability to supply HEP. Heat provided by radiant heat through resistance.

HEP failure would not cause just the heat to go out, but cuts power to the entire train. The ventilation stops, and the lights switch over to battery. No power to the diner's appliances. Toilets won't flush.

Failure of heat is local, sometimes to the room, sometimes to the car. Doesn't mean more than one car can't have a failure, or the attendant not set it.

Prior to HEP, most trains were heated by steam, with car electricity provided by axle generators and battery, often 32 VDC. In the diesel era, steam provided by a steam generator in engine. In some cases, even the AC was run with steam (really, used a "steam ejector" system to power AC. Santa Fe used it a lot). Amtrak switched over completely to HEP by 1981.

Bit of trivia. "Heritage Fleet" was specifically the name of the RR-inherited equipment converted to HEP. Unconverted equipment wasn't "Heritage Fleet".

I've had the heat stuck on (with the little dial just being decorative) and failed/stuck off. Of the 2, I much prefer no heat to too much. If more blankets (like the upper's) unavailable or insufficient, I can always throw my coat on the bed as an extra blanket. Getting a clean bath towel from the shower's supply to function as another blanket can help, too.

 

[oldtimer]

I know I am going off track here.. What is used for heat on these train? Heat Pump/Electric heat strips or Hot water from the engine?

Electric heat. 3 phase 480 VAC HEP (Head-End Power) from engine. Everything powered off that. One of the hallmarks of a passenger engine today is ability to supply HEP. Heat provided by radiant heat through resistance.

HEP failure would not cause just the heat to go out, but cuts power to the entire train. The ventilation stops, and the lights switch over to battery. No power to the diner's appliances. Toilets won't flush.

Failure of heat is local, sometimes to the room, sometimes to the car. Doesn't mean more than one car can't have a failure, or the attendant not set it.

Prior to HEP, most trains were heated by steam, with car electricity provided by axle generators and battery, often 32 VDC. In the diesel era, steam provided by a steam generator in engine. In some cases, even the AC was run with steam (really, used a "steam ejector" system to power AC. Santa Fe used it a lot). Amtrak switched over completely to HEP by 1981.

Bit of trivia. "Heritage Fleet" was specifically the name of the RR-inherited equipment converted to HEP. Unconverted equipment wasn't "Heritage Fleet".

I've had the heat stuck on (with the little dial just being decorative) and failed/stuck off. Of the 2, I much prefer no heat to too much. If more blankets (like the upper's) unavailable or insufficient, I can always throw my coat on the bed as an extra blanket. Getting a clean bath towel from the shower's supply to function as another blanket can help, too.

Actually there are two forms of heat on Amtrak railcars

1) Overhead heat this is 480 Volt 3 phase AC powered resistance grid heaters which are located in the ventilation system for each end of the car.

this system has two grids a first stage that is used for heat and in conjunction with the air conditioning for dehumidification. On most cars if the outside air temperature goes below 20 oF. the second stage is enabled and used in combination with the first stage.

2) The railcars also have what is know as floor heat. This is another 480 Volt 3 phase system these are strip heaters. On all cars except Sleeper and Trans-Dorm cars these also have two stages, again the second stage becomes energized at approximately 20 o F. On Sleeper and Trans-Dorm railcars the compartments have the floor hear controlled individually. These are also strip heaters with the same source of power, but the power is regulated by an electronic control box for each room. this box is controlled by the room heat selector knob that we are familiar with and an electronic device called a thermistor. On Superliners this is located is the approx 1"x3/4" screen box near the air vent.

This arrangement has several things that can fail, most commonly the control box or a fuse in the control box this can cause a no heat condition most commonly but it can also cause the heat runaway, that is the heat cannot be turned off in that room and it the circuit breaker is opened it will cause a no heat condition for a major portion of the car.

The engineers that designed the Superliner car never had to maintain them as some times it can take as many as 8 man-hours to change the control box or even change a fuse as access requires taking both sections of the lower berth out, the step and the grill covering the heaters and some locations even a half berth in the adjoining room. Not a quick nor easy repair and usually not done on a turnaround train if no replacement car is available. If it is possible the crew is told not to use that room due to the heat problem.

 

[zephyr17]

I know I am going off track here.. What is used for heat on these train? Heat Pump/Electric heat strips or Hot water from the engine?

Electric heat. 3 phase 480 VAC HEP (Head-End Power) from engine. Everything powered off that. One of the hallmarks of a passenger engine today is ability to supply HEP. Heat provided by radiant heat through resistance.

HEP failure would not cause just the heat to go out, but cuts power to the entire train. The ventilation stops, and the lights switch over to battery. No power to the diner's appliances. Toilets won't flush.

Failure of heat is local, sometimes to the room, sometimes to the car. Doesn't mean more than one car can't have a failure, or the attendant not set it.

Prior to HEP, most trains were heated by steam, with car electricity provided by axle generators and battery, often 32 VDC. In the diesel era, steam provided by a steam generator in engine. In some cases, even the AC was run with steam (really, used a "steam ejector" system to power AC. Santa Fe used it a lot). Amtrak switched over completely to HEP by 1981.

Bit of trivia. "Heritage Fleet" was specifically the name of the RR-inherited equipment converted to HEP. Unconverted equipment wasn't "Heritage Fleet".

I've had the heat stuck on (with the little dial just being decorative) and failed/stuck off. Of the 2, I much prefer no heat to too much. If more blankets (like the upper's) unavailable or insufficient, I can always throw my coat on the bed as an extra blanket. Getting a clean bath towel from the shower's supply to function as another blanket can help, too.

Actually there are two forms of heat on Amtrak railcars

1) Overhead heat this is 480 Volt 3 phase AC powered resistance grid heaters which are located in the ventilation system for each end of the car.

this system has two grids a first stage that is used for heat and in conjunction with the air conditioning for dehumidification. On most cars if the outside air temperature goes below 20 oF. the second stage is enabled and used in combination with the first stage.

2) The railcars also have what is know as floor heat. This is another 480 Volt 3 phase system these are strip heaters. On all cars except Sleeper and Trans-Dorm cars these also have two stages, again the second stage becomes energized at approximately 20 o F. On Sleeper and Trans-Dorm railcars the compartments have the floor hear controlled individually. These are also strip heaters with the same source of power, but the power is regulated by an electronic control box for each room. this box is controlled by the room heat selector knob that we are familiar with and an electronic device called a thermistor. On Superliners this is located is the approx 1"x3/4" screen box near the air vent.

This arrangement has several things that can fail, most commonly the control box or a fuse in the control box this can cause a no heat condition most commonly but it can also cause the heat runaway, that is the heat cannot be turned off in that room and it the circuit breaker is opened it will cause a no heat condition for a major portion of the car.

The engineers that designed the Superliner car never had to maintain them as some times it can take as many as 8 man-hours to change the control box or even change a fuse as access requires taking both sections of the lower berth out, the step and the grill covering the heaters and some locations even a half berth in the adjoining room. Not a quick nor easy repair and usually not done on a turnaround train if no replacement car is available. If it is possible the crew is told not to use that room due to the heat problem.

Thanks, Oldtimer. That really explains a lot on the vagaries of that Superliner sleeper heating control. That is some seriously bad design to have to go to that degree of disassembly to change a fuse, or change out the control (I always thought it was a rheostat). Also never really realized that there was that much in the ventilation. It was always the silly floor heat that always cause me problems...

 

[TraneMan]

Thanks for sharing the info on how the heat works! I used to be in HVAC, and still enjoy it as a "Hobby".

I take it cooling is just single stage system? Are they pretty good about keeping the air filter changed?

Also, I am sure there's fresh air brought into the cars too?

 

[oldtimer]

Thanks for sharing the info on how the heat works! I used to be in HVAC, and still enjoy it as a "Hobby".

I take it cooling is just single stage system? Are they pretty good about keeping the air filter changed?

Also, I am sure there's fresh air brought into the cars too?

Traneman,

I wondered about the name as I taught HVAC and EPA certification for Amtrak for several years(for those not into HVAC Tane is a brand name in the industry).

I'll take your questions in reverse order:

1) fresh air is mixed into the car at a 20% fresh and 80% reused ratio unless the Outside air temperature is below -10 at that point to fresh air shutters only allow 5% fresh air into the car as the 20% would allow the cold to overcome the heat.

2) air filters are changed very regularly on LD trains every trip.

3) the AC system has several steps and I don't know if others on the board would be bored with a detailed explanation. If others want an explanation I'll be glad to do so in a post. If not I'll PM you. Either way it will be later in the week or next week as I'll be away from the keyboard for a while.

Thanks

Oldtimer2

:giggle:

 

[zephyr17]

Thanks for sharing the info on how the heat works! I used to be in HVAC, and still enjoy it as a "Hobby".

I take it cooling is just single stage system? Are they pretty good about keeping the air filter changed?

Also, I am sure there's fresh air brought into the cars too?

Traneman,

I wondered about the name as I taught HVAC and EPA certification for Amtrak for several years(for those not into HVAC Tane is a brand name in the industry).

I'll take your questions in reverse order:

1) fresh air is mixed into the car at a 20% fresh and 80% reused ratio unless the Outside air temperature is below -10 at that point to fresh air shutters only allow 5% fresh air into the car as the 20% would allow the cold to overcome the heat.

2) air filters are changed very regularly on LD trains every trip.

3) the AC system has several steps and I don't know if others on the board would be bored with a detailed explanation. If others want an explanation I'll be glad to do so in a post. If not I'll PM you. Either way it will be later in the week or next week as I'll be away from the keyboard for a while.

Thanks

Oldtimer2

:giggle:

I, for one, would be interested.

 

[Steve4031]

Last February, I rode on a newly refurbished sleeper on 449 from Boston to Chicago. The attendant told this to me at some point. The heat was fine for most the afternoon. However, about an hour out of Albany it stopped working. It did get kind of cold, and I did mention it. The attendant explained that he did not know how to work the controls, or do something or other, because the refurbishment was different from what he was used to.

He took steps to have it looked at in Albany. When he discovered that his requests were being ignored, he went into the station and insisted that we get refunds. (He told me this, I don't know if it really happened. He did seem really concerned about our comfort though.) We were delayed about 30 minutes while the issue was looked at. I went to dinner, and when I came back, still no heat.

As we rode across upstate New York, it got colder. I figured I would use an extra blanket, and persevere. Not too hard since I was on a train. If GF had been with me, this would have been a drama queen moment for sure.

About 3 hours out of Albany, the heat "magically" came on. I felt the heat from the floor level heater.

There were no more problems the rest of the trip. I don't really understand what happened. But i felt the attendent did his best.

 

[TraneMan]

Thanks for sharing the info on how the heat works! I used to be in HVAC, and still enjoy it as a "Hobby".

I take it cooling is just single stage system? Are they pretty good about keeping the air filter changed?

Also, I am sure there's fresh air brought into the cars too?

Traneman,

I wondered about the name as I taught HVAC and EPA certification for Amtrak for several years(for those not into HVAC Tane is a brand name in the industry).

I'll take your questions in reverse order:

1) fresh air is mixed into the car at a 20% fresh and 80% reused ratio unless the Outside air temperature is below -10 at that point to fresh air shutters only allow 5% fresh air into the car as the 20% would allow the cold to overcome the heat.

2) air filters are changed very regularly on LD trains every trip.

3) the AC system has several steps and I don't know if others on the board would be bored with a detailed explanation. If others want an explanation I'll be glad to do so in a post. If not I'll PM you. Either way it will be later in the week or next week as I'll be away from the keyboard for a while.

Thanks

Oldtimer2

:giggle:

Please do when you get a chance! I love learning about these things.

Thing I am impressed with is the staying on top of the filters.. I know how how many hotel/motel I stay in and those filters are PLUGGED up!

 

[TraneMan]

Thanks for sharing the info on how the heat works! I used to be in HVAC, and still enjoy it as a "Hobby".

I take it cooling is just single stage system? Are they pretty good about keeping the air filter changed?

Also, I am sure there's fresh air brought into the cars too?

Traneman,

I wondered about the name as I taught HVAC and EPA certification for Amtrak for several years(for those not into HVAC Tane is a brand name in the industry).

I'll take your questions in reverse order:

1) fresh air is mixed into the car at a 20% fresh and 80% reused ratio unless the Outside air temperature is below -10 at that point to fresh air shutters only allow 5% fresh air into the car as the 20% would allow the cold to overcome the heat.

2) air filters are changed very regularly on LD trains every trip.

3) the AC system has several steps and I don't know if others on the board would be bored with a detailed explanation. If others want an explanation I'll be glad to do so in a post. If not I'll PM you. Either way it will be later in the week or next week as I'll be away from the keyboard for a while.

Thanks

Oldtimer2

:giggle:

Hey oldtimer,

Just wanted to touch face with you on this since I haven't heard back from you..

Hope all is well!

 

[RRrich]

If the heat had gone out when I was with wifey, we would have enjoyed that as an excuse to cuddle. If the AC had gone our, we would NOT have been pleased.

 

[amamba]

When I rode the CS earlier this month, the heat was unbearable. It came pouring out of the vent by the floor and could not be turned off. Basically, my bedroom was so hot that I was unable to sit in it without sweating profusely - and I changed into a tank top because I was so hot. Additionally, I pushed up my suitcase next to the heater and then the suitcase became extremely hot to the touch.

I told the car attendant and he tried to turn it down, but it seemed to be worse in my bedroom than the other rooms in the sleeper. I was on an AGR award and didn't want a stink afterwards, but if I had paid for that bedroom I would have called customer relations.

 

[me_little_me]

Anyone else experience anything similar?

Anyhow, I sent an email with the above details to Amtrak using their website, with the idea that someone should inspect those cars to fix any problems. Someone on the train also suggested writing a surface mail letter to the president of Amtrak. Can someone provide the address-- I cannot seem to find it anywhere.

Oh -- I should also mention the dining car was not working the first night because there was a problem with the water system. The crew ordered in sandwiches for us.

If you never experienced heat failures, A/C failures, total electrical failures, water problems or toilet issues, you have never taken Amtrak. Their equipment has a lot of failures because they don't have enough cars to pull them out of service often enough for maintenance, their equipment takes a lot of beating and they can't afford to invest in redundant, vibration resistant equipment.

Your best bet is to call/write/email Customer Service, explain both problems that occurred (heat and dinner) and ask for compensation. We had a heater-gone-wild and a toilet that wouldn't stop filling up on one trip last year and they sent us $400 ($200 each) in vouchers. I considered that to be very generous of them and it was more than we expected.

I could kick myself for not doing more for the SCA. Not only did she try to fix the toilet problem, on her cell phone she called her husband who is an Amtrak repair guy and he tried to walk her through a fix - but it didn't work. Now that is an employee dedicated to customer service.

Always get the conductor or assistant conductor involved and ask him/her to record that the problems occurred. Mention that it was reported to the conductor in your Customer Service contact.