Notes from NARP meeting in MT

[CHamilton]

I just got back from yesterday's NW meeting of NARP in Whitefish, MT.

http://allaboardwash...org/springrail/

There were good presentations from Amtrak, Talgo, and NARP, as well as from the state advocacy organizations in the Northwest. I didn't take extensive notes, since much of what was discussed has been talked about on AU, but here are some items I hadn't heard before.

Joe McHugh, Amtrak

• The 40th anniversary train will have 75,000 visitors before its tour is over.
• People liked the old paint schemes well enough that they will repaint many of the long-distance engines in the "bloody nose" livery as they cycle through maintenance.
• The oil boom in ND has caused safety concerns around Williston and Stanley. They have had issues with drunkenness and "working girls" working the train.
• Amtrak is negotiating to keep the SWC on its current route. They are not interested in moving to the transcon, since the move would cost $30M. It's cheaper to keep maintaining the existing service.
• They are returning a bunch of P40s to service.
• A revised Fleet Strategy document will be published soon.
• One of the new Viewliners will be used to re-establish overnight sleeper WAS-BOS.
• Statistic: Acela generates 20% of all Amtrak revenue.
• A new POS system is coming to diners and lounges, which will eliminate the enormous forms needed to manage 136 revenue items.
• MI, IL equipment will only be able to be used in those locates, due to non-standard track configurations.
• McHugh doesn't think that the Senate transportation bill will pass this year.

Antonio Perez, Talgo

• The equipment built now is essentially the same as the Talgo 250 series used in Europe. However, FRA required flat windshields, which caused the ugly front end. The train sets will be delivered this summer.
• There will eventually be 13 RTs SEA-PDX-EUG.
• The new individual cars won't be able to be mixed with the existing cars, since the new ones have different equipment underneath the floors. They will have the same capacity, though, so it will be possible to swap out a train set as needed.
• The new train sets won't require an FRA waiver.
• These are US trains, since they are made with 65% US parts, and are assembled here.
• OR and WI cars could be mixed except for colors. WI train sets have coach only, no BC.

Bob Stewart, NARP

• Donations to NARP will shortly get AGR points.

 

[Eric S]

• Amtrak is negotiating to keep the SL on its current route. They are not interested in moving to the transcon, since the move would cost $30M. It's cheaper to keep maintaining the existing service.
• They are returning a bunch of P40s to service.

Sunset Limited on its current route, or Southwest Chief? Assuming the latter, that is first time I think I've seen a cost figure established for moving to the Transcon. You didn't happen to hear more details as to what that $30 million pays for, did you?

The "bunch of P40s" - any idea if this is in addition to the 15 restored in the last couple years?

Thanks for taking notes and passing them along.

 

[Blackwolf]

• People liked the old paint schemes well enough that they will repaint many of the long-distance engines in the "bloody nose" livery as they cycle through maintenance.

Really?? Now that would not only be interesting, but absolutely amazing! Of course, seeing is believing in a case like this, but I've never been the biggest fan of the current "Acela" wave scheme the road diesels are wearing. A modified Phase I, though likely with the current Over the Hill logo in the place of the Pointless Arrow, would bring a grin to my face as a possible new paint phase scheme. I have to wonder if there are measurable safety and visibility advantages enough to having a red nose again?

• The oil boom in ND has caused safety concerns around Williston and Stanley. They have had issues with drunkenness and "working girls" working the train.

Did not see or hear issues about prostitution earlier this month while aboard the EB, but you know what they say about there "being a will." Drunkenness is much more prevalent, I'll bet. It is hard not to walk through the coach section or SSL and not catch a whiff of alcohol on someone's breath from time to time.

• They are returning a bunch of P40s to service.

I'd been wondering when more P-40's would get back on the road. True, all of them are far from new and have many hard-worn miles beneath their wheels. But getting the 40's back on point will certainly buy time until new diesels can be ordered.

• One of the new Viewliners will be used to re-establish overnight sleeper WAS-BOS.

A return of the Twilight Shoreliner after all? Should be fantastic!

• McHugh doesn't think that the Senate transportation bill will pass this year.

Lets hope he's wrong, but there are more skeptics out there than just him.

• Donations to NARP will shortly get AGR points.

YES! YES! YES!!

 

[CHamilton]

Sunset Limited on its current route, or Southwest Chief? Assuming the latter, that is first time I think I've seen a cost figure established for moving to the Transcon. You didn't happen to hear more details as to what that $30 million pays for, did you?

The "bunch of P40s" - any idea if this is in addition to the 15 restored in the last couple years?

Thanks for taking notes and passing them along.

Eric, you're right, it was the SWC. I've edited my original post. I didn't take notes on what the $30M paid for, but it included a lot of stuff, like new stations.

Re the P40s, it sounded like it was in addition to the 15 already done, but I'm not sure.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Nice that Amtrak will paint more retro locomotives. Maybe some retro cars will be a great match, too! I think that they should at least paint one Genesis in the original Phase I and Phase III liveries.

 

[afigg]

• The oil boom in ND has caused safety concerns around Williston and Stanley. They have had issues with drunkenness and "working girls" working the train.
  

So there is some additional in-room paid entertainment on the EB. How is that a problem? -_- Ok, I can see the problem if it does not stay as in-room entertainment.
 

They are returning a bunch of P40s to service.

The 15 P-40s returned to service with stimulus funding were all completed by early 2011. Either the presentation was referring to equipment that has been in service for over a year or there are a few more laid up P40s that can be rebuilt and Amtrak has decided to spend the coin to restore them.
 

McHugh doesn't think that the Senate transportation bill will pass this year.

I think the Senate Transportation bill actually has a chance of passing reasonably intact because Speaker Boehner and the House Republicans have boxed themselves in with an extreme House Transportation bill that can't get passed on the floor of the House and the clock is ticking. The Senate can tell the House to take the Senate bill as is with only a few small changes to save face or forget it. The angry screams from the highway and business interests who contribute to the Republican campaign funds will hit category 10 when they face the prospects of no highway funding and thus new contracts at all.

 

[Anderson]

On the Shoreliner (thank the Lord that's coming back), I'm just wondering...are they planning to set out/cut the sleeper at WAS? Or just run it through with the rest of the train?

Also, I'm wondering...if I donate to NARP and I get AGR points for it, what is the tax advice going to look like regarding deducting that donation?

 

[TCRT]

The 15 P-40s returned to service with stimulus funding were all completed by early 2011. Either the presentation was referring to equipment that has been in service for over a year or there are a few more laid up P40s that can be rebuilt and Amtrak has decided to spend the coin to restore them.

This page, while unofficial, would seem to indicate that there are an additional 13 P40s that are not "stored dead", refurbished, or sold.

 

[jis]

On the Shoreliner (thank the Lord that's coming back), I'm just wondering...are they planning to set out/cut the sleeper at WAS? Or just run it through with the rest of the train?

Also, I'm wondering...if I donate to NARP and I get AGR points for it, what is the tax advice going to look like regarding deducting that donation?

Most likely the same as getting AGR point from making the donation using the AGR Mastercard. The market value of 100 AGR points is so miniscule that it would fall way under any reporting threshold of IRS.

 

[user 1215]

• The oil boom in ND has caused safety concerns around Williston and Stanley. They have had issues with drunkenness and "working girls" working the train.
  

So there is some additional in-room paid entertainment on the EB. How is that a problem? -_- Ok, I can see the problem if it does not stay as in-room entertainment.
 

They are returning a bunch of P40s to service.

The 15 P-40s returned to service with stimulus funding were all completed by early 2011. Either the presentation was referring to equipment that has been in service for over a year or there are a few more laid up P40s that can be rebuilt and Amtrak has decided to spend the coin to restore them.
 

McHugh doesn't think that the Senate transportation bill will pass this year.

I think the Senate Transportation bill actually has a chance of passing reasonably intact because Speaker Boehner and the House Republicans have boxed themselves in with an extreme House Transportation bill that can't get passed on the floor of the House and the clock is ticking. The Senate can tell the House to take the Senate bill as is with only a few small changes to save face or forget it. The angry screams from the highway and business interests who contribute to the Republican campaign funds will hit category 10 when they face the prospects of no highway funding and thus new contracts at all.

The problem with the "In Room Entertainment" is that it's not Amtrak getting paid! 8)

Where are these P40s being used?

It would be GREAT to see trains 66/67 get a sleeper or two or three - and a NAME!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The upsetting thing is the NARP donation. It just confirms how much conflict comes from NARP being an employee of Amtrak.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The upsetting thing is the NARP donation. It just confirms how much conflict comes from NARP being an employee of Amtrak.

Instead of complaining about NARP for the hundredth time, why don't you tell us which national activist group you DO like and why?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Rail Users Network is a better example.

 

[CHamilton]

Here's a report on the meeting from a Missoula TV station. Not detailed, of course, but it may be of interest. http://www.kpax.com/news/whitefish-hosts-railroad-conference/#!prettyPhoto/0/

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The Rail Users Network is a better example.

And the why part?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

They aren't corrupted by an extreme conflict of interest? They actually represent the riders?

 

[jis]

They aren't corrupted by an extreme conflict of interest? They actually represent the riders?

My problem with NARP is that it is too close to Amtrak to give Amtrak any really unbiased feedback. This works against providing truly independent feedback. But they do have very good and deep contacts into Amtrak. OTOH they are completely absent in the way of having contacts with any of the Commuter organizations. I wish they would separate out the Amtrak Marketing part clearly so that the advocacy part does not get infected by it. Fortunately once you establish contact with folks in Amtrak via that route, you can go rogue and work directly with folks from Amtrak. Of course one does have to gain the trust and confidence of Amtrak management folks as an individual, in order to be taken seriously by them.

I would have liked RUN more if they spent a little less time and effort bad mouthing NARP and a little more time doing anything useful. Just my personal opinion, so just take it as such.

Jishnu.

 

[MikefromCrete]

They aren't corrupted by an extreme conflict of interest? They actually represent the riders?

My problem with NARP is that it is too close to Amtrak to give Amtrak any really unbiased feedback. This works against providing truly independent feedback. But they do have very good and deep contacts into Amtrak. OTOH they are completely absent in the way of having contacts with any of the Commuter organizations. I wish they would separate out the Amtrak Marketing part clearly so that the advocacy part does not get infected by it. Fortunately once you establish contact with folks in Amtrak via that route, you can go rogue and work directly with folks from Amtrak. Of course one does have to gain the trust and confidence of Amtrak management folks as an individual, in order to be taken seriously by them.

I would have liked RUN more if they spent a little less time and effort bad mouthing NARP and a little more time doing anything useful. Just my personal opinion, so just take it as such.

Jishnu.

I thought NARP was out of the marketing effort. They certainly should be. They should be an independent voice representing passengers and not Amtrak. NARP seems to be the only group actually lobbying congress. URPA seems like a totally off the wall group. I've never heard of RUN.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I would have liked RUN more if they spent a little less time and effort bad mouthing NARP and a little more time doing anything useful. Just my personal opinion, so just take it as such.

Jishnu.

On this we are completely in agreement.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

They aren't corrupted by an extreme conflict of interest? They actually represent the riders?

My problem with NARP is that it is too close to Amtrak to give Amtrak any really unbiased feedback. This works against providing truly independent feedback. But they do have very good and deep contacts into Amtrak. OTOH they are completely absent in the way of having contacts with any of the Commuter organizations. I wish they would separate out the Amtrak Marketing part clearly so that the advocacy part does not get infected by it. Fortunately once you establish contact with folks in Amtrak via that route, you can go rogue and work directly with folks from Amtrak. Of course one does have to gain the trust and confidence of Amtrak management folks as an individual, in order to be taken seriously by them.

I would have liked RUN more if they spent a little less time and effort bad mouthing NARP and a little more time doing anything useful. Just my personal opinion, so just take it as such.

Jishnu.

I thought NARP was out of the marketing effort. They certainly should be. They should be an independent voice representing passengers and not Amtrak. NARP seems to be the only group actually lobbying congress. URPA seems like a totally off the wall group. I've never heard of RUN.

RUN or Rail Users Network is a national rail advocacy group run by Richard Rudolph. Look it up. They do some good.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

RUN or Rail Users Network is a national rail advocacy group run by Richard Rudolph. Look it up. They do some good.

Sounds like they deserve their own thread where you can tell us about what they're interested in and how it's going. Kind of like how the OP of this thread was kind enough to do for NARP.

 

[haolerider]

They aren't corrupted by an extreme conflict of interest? They actually represent the riders?

My problem with NARP is that it is too close to Amtrak to give Amtrak any really unbiased feedback. This works against providing truly independent feedback. But they do have very good and deep contacts into Amtrak. OTOH they are completely absent in the way of having contacts with any of the Commuter organizations. I wish they would separate out the Amtrak Marketing part clearly so that the advocacy part does not get infected by it. Fortunately once you establish contact with folks in Amtrak via that route, you can go rogue and work directly with folks from Amtrak. Of course one does have to gain the trust and confidence of Amtrak management folks as an individual, in order to be taken seriously by them.

I would have liked RUN more if they spent a little less time and effort bad mouthing NARP and a little more time doing anything useful. Just my personal opinion, so just take it as such.

Jishnu.

I thought NARP was out of the marketing effort. They certainly should be. They should be an independent voice representing passengers and not Amtrak. NARP seems to be the only group actually lobbying congress. URPA seems like a totally off the wall group. I've never heard of RUN.

RUN or Rail Users Network is a national rail advocacy group run by Richard Rudolph. Look it up. They do some good.

Although they are a national rail advocacy group, their board seems heavily weighted with northeast individuals. Not much from west of the Mississippi or down south. From past working experience, I have dealt with some of them and found them to be a bit personally demanding and somewhat unrealistic; however if they have accomplished more than NARP, I would like to know exectly what. I am no great fan of NARP or certainly not of URPA.

 

[jis]

I thought NARP was out of the marketing effort. They certainly should be. They should be an independent voice representing passengers and not Amtrak. NARP seems to be the only group actually lobbying congress. URPA seems like a totally off the wall group. I've never heard of RUN.

URPA is also not a group open membership like NARP or RUN. It is a few individuals with a few opinions who publish a newsletter. Nothing more than that. They actually by design do not have members and do not particularly appear to care what anyone else might think about anything they say.

 

[CHamilton]

More press coverage of the NARP meeting.

http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/amtrak_lobbying_group_meet_to_talk_passenger_rail/27155/

 

[Anderson]

Because of the long distance it must travel, the Empire Builder doesn’t make much of a profit

According to McHugh and McBroom, the Empire Builder covers more than 65 percent of its operational costs, the second most of any long-distance Amtrak passenger train.

...there seems to be some confusion on the definition of "profit" in that article.