Old Northeastern Passenger Lines

[Anderson]

I know that at the turn of the century (and through the 1950s) there was a network of passenger railroad lines in the NE that was substantially larger than what we've got now (to put it mildly). I know that the main lines were the modern NEC (with some variations) from DC-Boston (often with a change in NYC), the Empire Corridor/Water Level Route, and the Pennsy "main line". There was also the Lackawanna Cutoff route and the B&O line from DC up to Pittsburgh. Were there any other major trunk lines that I'm missing that got a lot of use by intercity passenger lines?

 

[railiner]

There were a lot of other routes with passenger service in the northeast, but they had for the most part less trains than the ones you mentioned.

Besides the Lackawanna Cutoff route, there was also the old Erie line from Hoboken all the way to Chicago. Today it has no passenger service west of Port Jervis.

Then there was the Lehigh Valley, the Jersey Central (several routes), the Susquehanna, the Reading, and a lot more routes on the major lines--PRR, NYC, NH, B&O, D&H,B&M,MEC, BAR,etc.

Try to acquire an old Official Guide on EBay. You'll be amazed at what used to be.

 

[Anderson]

I'll try and round one up from either the 50s or the early 60s. The ones from after '65 or so, I suspect, will be far more truncated.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I'll try and round one up from either the 50s or the early 60s. The ones from after '65 or so, I suspect, will be far more truncated.

Nickel plate comes to mind in addition to the ones railiner named. Anderson, from this question and other questions you have asked I insist that you MUST round up a mid 1950's Railroad Guide. As Railiner said, you will be surprised.

And you are right on target when you suspect a lot of service would be gone by the 60s.

Get that Guide sooner rather than later.

You will not put it down for a week, i.e. forget all about eating, sleeping, shaving, etc.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Anderson, adding to the post I already made (be sure to read it also), do not get too old of a guide. You do not want one which does not show the Hi Level El Cap, the new streamliners in Canada such as the Super Continental and the Canadian. Also, slumbercoches were not invented until about 1956. So I would say about 1957.

It would also be good to have one when the Florida trains were still longer, and more of them, during the winter season, which was about December 16 to April 24.

Also, and I admit this sounds extremely self serving, but let me float out that the last through Streamlined service via the Dixie Flagler and Dixieland route from CHI to MIA was Novemer 1957.

When you put all that together my very best suggestion for an old RR guide would be December 1956.

 

[MrFSS]

Many of the old Official Guides are on CD (from eBay) and they are easier to use on the computer and print what you need.

 

[Anderson]

Bill,

Scrap my emails. I found one from December, 1956 and ordered it. $15 plus $5 shipping...I am going to suspect that I got a good deal here. Hopefully this will stop all of the questions...though I may be in here bubbling a bit once I get it!

 

[jis]

Bill,

Scrap my emails. I found one from December, 1956 and ordered it. $15 plus $5 shipping...I am going to suspect that I got a good deal here. Hopefully this will stop all of the questions...though I may be in here bubbling a bit once I get it!

$15 to $20 is the typical price for most. There is one outlier that I have come across for one specific rare issue that was going for $125. But it was not one that was of any interest to me fortunately.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Bill,

Scrap my emails. I found one from December, 1956 and ordered it. $15 plus $5 shipping...I am going to suspect that I got a good deal here. Hopefully this will stop all of the questions...though I may be in here bubbling a bit once I get it!

Good deal. And if I may, I would like to elaborate my remark about the Dixie Flagler route.

Several know I grew up on that route.

But many may not realize that was one of the oldest and most popular routes--so that makes it mean more than just my personal preference road. That is, Chicago, Evansville, Nashville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Jacksonville and Miami.

Yet it was the first to fall!!

The Dixie Flagler was renamed the Dixieland in December 1954 so that is what you will find in your Official Guide.

 

[Anderson]

Bill,

If it was so popular, why did it fall so soon?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Bill,

If it was so popular, why did it fall so soon?

I have read that the Chicago and Eastern Illinois, which carried it from Chicago to Evansville, wanted out.It also was broadsided by a freight train in Kentucky in summer 1957 and is said to have lost business due to the negative publicity. Also the L&N RR had just taken over the Nashville Chattanooga and ST.Louis and wanted to trim services. Two other trains went at about the same time.

Its chief competitors, the South Wind and the City of Miami, received new pullmans about four years before the FLagler, sending more passengers their way. Each of those trains were built as all coach streamliners in 1940. When sleepers were placed in 1949 all they had were old heavyweight cars on lightweight trains. The City and the SW got their new sleepers earlier.

It must be noted that when the almost new Dixieland(1954-57) coaches and pullmans were no longer needed, they did not just go "anywhere" but instead spruced up the South Wind and the Georgian, an overnight streamliner from Chicago to ATL.So the railroads made lemonade out of lemons.

Also I have heard that 1957 was a bad year for Florida tourism for some reason I no longer remember.

Then there is this: the historical old Dixie highway. both train and car that was the original route.

 

[railiner]

Bill,

Scrap my emails. I found one from December, 1956 and ordered it. $15 plus $5 shipping...I am going to suspect that I got a good deal here. Hopefully this will stop all of the questions...though I may be in here bubbling a bit once I get it!

Congratulations on your purchase!

Now, instead of asking, you may indeed be answering questions on this board.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Once you get your guide, there are several differences from today's timetable you will notice. Some of which I think you already know.

More details on sleepers. More types of rooms and many different floor plans. Everything was NOT just a 10 roomette 6 double bedroom. And the car numbers were usually shown. And the numbering pattern was not always the same consistency as it is today. You will find yourself questioning why some of them are what they are.

Only some trains had reserved seats in the coaches. And that really did mean an exact space at the time you made your reservation. Car 5, Seat 20. The number of coaches and sometimes the numbers of seats in the coaches was often shown on trains which had reserved seats. Other trains it just said "coaches" leaving you guessing how many coaches a particular train had.Many lines still listed the coaches as having reclining seats. Actually that was mostly a relic by the 50's.

Usually the first pages of a timetable showed equipment and condensed schedules of main trains. That was followed by a section showing ALL the local stops and some trains so slow and insignificant as to not even be listed in the first part of the tables. These trains were usually primarily for mail.

Many trains were operated by more than one railroad. For example, the California Zephyr ran from Chicago to Denver on the Chicago Burlington and Quincy. Then from Denver to Salt Lake City on the Denver and Rio Grande, Then Western Pacific from Salt Lake City to Oakland.

That normally meant a change of locomotives at least every time you changed railroads but of course the timetables did not mention that.One train which was a glaring exception to this was the South Wind usually handled either by Pennsylvania locos all the way from Chicago to Miami or an Atlantic Coast line, when actually two other lines participated in this operation as well.

NOW....from point above.....to see the full scope of equipment and local stops and other trains on the same lines you normally had to go to all the timetables involved to get the complete data for a given train. Not as simple as it is today. Maybe one reason trains almost went out of existence is that they could be hard to understand.

The old timetable/Guide sometimes said something about baggage and dorms but usually not anything about mail cars. So, the RR Guide, as thick and juicy as it looks, still was not not a substitute for seeing the train in person due to non reserved coaches, head end, etc. Yet, you usually could get exact info on sleepers, diner, lounges and reserved seat coaches.

You will find many more cars added and subtracted en route for traffic pattern reasons, and set out for sleeping in convenience than today. Lots more switching around today proportionately.

 

[railiner]

Once you get your guide, there are several differences from today's timetable you will notice. Some of which I think you already know.

More details on sleepers. More types of rooms and many different floor plans. Everything was NOT just a 10 roomette 6 double bedroom. And the car numbers were usually shown. And the numbering pattern was not always the same consistency as it is today. You will find yourself questioning why some of them are what they are.

Only some trains had reserved seats in the coaches. And that really did mean an exact space at the time you made your reservation. Car 5, Seat 20. The number of coaches and sometimes the numbers of seats in the coaches was often shown on trains which had reserved seats. Other trains it just said "coaches" leaving you guessing how many coaches a particular train had.Many lines still listed the coaches as having reclining seats. Actually that was mostly a relic by the 50's.

Usually the first pages of a timetable showed equipment and condensed schedules of main trains. That was followed by a section showing ALL the local stops and some trains so slow and insignificant as to not even be listed in the first part of the tables. These trains were usually primarily for mail.

Many trains were operated by more than one railroad. For example, the California Zephyr ran from Chicago to Denver on the Chicago Burlington and Quincy. Then from Denver to Salt Lake City on the Denver and Rio Grande, Then Western Pacific from Salt Lake City to Oakland.

That normally meant a change of locomotives at least every time you changed railroads but of course the timetables did not mention that.One train which was a glaring exception to this was the South Wind usually handled either by Pennsylvania locos all the way from Chicago to Miami or an Atlantic Coast line, when actually two other lines participated in this operation as well.

NOW....from point above.....to see the full scope of equipment and local stops and other trains on the same lines you normally had to go to all the timetables involved to get the complete data for a given train. Not as simple as it is today. Maybe one reason trains almost went out of existence is that they could be hard to understand.

The old timetable/Guide sometimes said something about baggage and dorms but usually not anything about mail cars. So, the RR Guide, as thick and juicy as it looks, still was not not a substitute for seeing the train in person due to non reserved coaches, head end, etc. Yet, you usually could get exact info on sleepers, diner, lounges and reserved seat coaches.

You will find many more cars added and subtracted en route for traffic pattern reasons, and set out for sleeping in convenience than today. Lots more switching around today proportionately.

An excellent description of some of what is in the Official Guide. Well said.

To me, the purchase of a Guide from a choice time rewards its purchaser with perhaps the greatest single value in railroad collectibles. You can look at a piece of hardware, hold it, display it, etc. for just so long. Sitting down in a comfortable chair with a Guide will provide untold hours of fascinating and entertaining and educating reading pleasure, that can then be refered to again and again, as curiosity arises. And once you get one, you'll probably want more from other times, to see the history of railroad services, as it evolved.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Once you get your guide, there are several differences from today's timetable you will notice. Some of which I think you already know.

More details on sleepers. More types of rooms and many different floor plans. Everything was NOT just a 10 roomette 6 double bedroom. And the car numbers were usually shown. And the numbering pattern was not always the same consistency as it is today. You will find yourself questioning why some of them are what they are.

Only some trains had reserved seats in the coaches. And that really did mean an exact space at the time you made your reservation. Car 5, Seat 20. The number of coaches and sometimes the numbers of seats in the coaches was often shown on trains which had reserved seats. Other trains it just said "coaches" leaving you guessing how many coaches a particular train had.Many lines still listed the coaches as having reclining seats. Actually that was mostly a relic by the 50's.

Usually the first pages of a timetable showed equipment and condensed schedules of main trains. That was followed by a section showing ALL the local stops and some trains so slow and insignificant as to not even be listed in the first part of the tables. These trains were usually primarily for mail.

Many trains were operated by more than one railroad. For example, the California Zephyr ran from Chicago to Denver on the Chicago Burlington and Quincy. Then from Denver to Salt Lake City on the Denver and Rio Grande, Then Western Pacific from Salt Lake City to Oakland.

That normally meant a change of locomotives at least every time you changed railroads but of course the timetables did not mention that.One train which was a glaring exception to this was the South Wind usually handled either by Pennsylvania locos all the way from Chicago to Miami or an Atlantic Coast line, when actually two other lines participated in this operation as well.

NOW....from point above.....to see the full scope of equipment and local stops and other trains on the same lines you normally had to go to all the timetables involved to get the complete data for a given train. Not as simple as it is today. Maybe one reason trains almost went out of existence is that they could be hard to understand.

The old timetable/Guide sometimes said something about baggage and dorms but usually not anything about mail cars. So, the RR Guide, as thick and juicy as it looks, still was not not a substitute for seeing the train in person due to non reserved coaches, head end, etc. Yet, you usually could get exact info on sleepers, diner, lounges and reserved seat coaches.

You will find many more cars added and subtracted en route for traffic pattern reasons, and set out for sleeping in convenience than today. Lots more switching around today proportionately.

An excellent description of some of what is in the Official Guide. Well said.

To me, the purchase of a Guide from a choice time rewards its purchaser with perhaps the greatest single value in railroad collectibles. You can look at a piece of hardware, hold it, display it, etc. for just so long. Sitting down in a comfortable chair with a Guide will provide untold hours of fascinating and entertaining and educating reading pleasure, that can then be refered to again and again, as curiosity arises. And once you get one, you'll probably want more from other times, to see the history of railroad services, as it evolved.

Railiner, I agree with you 1,000%. I just hope that someday Amtrak does not quit printing a physical timetable. I cannot think of anything I would rather not read in a comfy chair than at a computer table.

 

[George Harris]

Bill,

If it was so popular, why did it fall so soon?

I have read that the Chicago and Eastern Illinois, which carried it from Chicago to Evansville, wanted out.It also was broadsided by a freight train in Kentucky in summer 1957 and is said to have lost business due to the negative publicity. Also the L&N RR had just taken over the Nashville Chattanooga and ST.Louis and wanted to trim services. Two other trains went at about the same time.

C&EI wanting out was also what killed the Georgian - Humming Bird. I went to work for the L&N in June 1968, which was shortly after it went. All the rest of its route south of Evansville was still going. I remember the passenger agent at the L&N station talking about it. He seemed almost in shock about it. His comment was they sold almost 100 tickets a day to Chicago and points that took you through Chicago on the Bird.

Somehow, C&EI seemed to be able to get train offs for trains with ridership far higher than those that other railroads were forced to keep running.