Ownership of Amtrak stations?

[Matthew H Fish]

This might seem like a minor question, but I think it is interesting, and might have important implications.
In another thread, I happened to mention that Amtrak doesn't own many of their stations---and I got curious, and looked it up, and apparently Amtrak owns almost none of their stations. But it is complicated, because some of the most important stations (like NY Penn and Chicago Union) they do own!
I can look up the ownership of individual stations, and from scanning wikipedia, it seems that stations are owned by a combination of freight railroads, state governments, city or local governments, and port authorities/transit authorities. And here also seems to be a somewhat obvious pattern that freight railroads own a lot of the lesser-used stations on long distance routes, while multimodal stations on corridor routes are owned by transit agencies. But it would be interesting to see a statistical breakdown of station ownership, including for ridership! If such a thing doesn't exist, I will probably end up making it.
It also has implications for customer experience---I will go out on a limb and guess that freight railroads are a lot less interested in whether a station has working drinking fountains and clean bathrooms than a transit agency. I think even city governments might be less responsive than transit agencies, but that is just a guess.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Appendix B here has many of them, in no particular order: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...ning/Amtrak-Stations-ALP-Appendix-FY22-27.pdf It was hard to find, then it was easy, right in Google. There's also a csv of stations (includes Amtrak bus), but it doesn't have what you want. If you download it rather than view the table, you get two additional columns, latitude and longitude.

I've wondered about the same thing for platform lengths and heights. Wikipedia sort of tries to encourage editors to submit structured data along with the basic editing. Some web site covers bridges of all types comprehensively, and the federal government has a mega database of bridge ratings. And another giant one of RR crossings. Many sundry tables of transportation things at https://www.bts.gov/ too.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

It appears the information is out there...now all I need to do is make a graph of it!
It would probably be a lot harder to draw any conclusions based on the data, though.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

There is no reason we could not start an easy to edit Google Sheet that listed Station, Code, Ownership of Staton, Ownership of platfrom, Ownership of rail (all could be different), # Platforms, Platform Length, Covered (Y/N), Length of Cover, Staffed, Baggage.

Most all of that can be found on the Amtrak Page for each station, or the Great American Stations website, or the Wikipedia page for each station and the measurements of of the platform lengths and cover is not hard to measure in Google Earth. I did this for Charlotte and Greensboro a few months ago when I realized while I walked it just how long the platform is at Charlotte (conclusion, trains were clearly longer in the past it would seem)

I can set this up later today and share the link. Open up for editing by anyone. List the columns we would like to include and I should be able to include that or at least have it started and we can add more columns as needed.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

There is no reason we could not start an easy to edit Google Sheet that listed Station, Code, Ownership of Staton, Ownership of platfrom, Ownership of rail (all could be different), # Platforms, Platform Length, Covered (Y/N), Length of Cover, Staffed, Baggage.

Most all of that can be found on the Amtrak Page for each station, or the Great American Stations website, or the Wikipedia page for each station and the measurements of of the platform lengths and cover is not hard to measure in Google Earth. I did this for Charlotte and Greensboro a few months ago when I realized while I walked it just how long the platform is at Charlotte (conclusion, trains were clearly longer in the past it would seem)

I can set this up later today and share the link. Open up for editing by anyone. List the columns we would like to include and I should be able to include that or at least have it started and we can add more columns as needed.

OK, did some text processing and I have a CSV combining the full station list with Appendix B (ownership). I excluded bus, which the ownership list doesn't cover anyway.

Only 14 are missing from the ownership list: BNN, CNL, GCN, LEX, LKL, LTM, NSF, NYF, PLS, SAY, SPP, TRC, VAS, WMA.

If someone opens up a Google Doc, or messages me their email address, I can share it.

By the way, funny story about looking for these. I came across a purported 2012 xls sheet of the simple station list. It was on two sketchy sites that collect government docs, said Google. One had no data, and the other was offered at some price. The one with no data had instead two letters from the Amtrak FOIA office. Seems whatever worthy person requested the station list, got it in pdf format, requested it again in xls, was denied, appealed, and the appeal was denied. That would be a good story for the Transit Costs Project at NYU, relevant to transparency. The Amtrak FOIA page hints it gets lots of requests, and there makes available the most commonly requested ones, it says.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

OK, did some text processing and I have a CSV combining the full station list with Appendix B (ownership). I excluded bus, which the ownership list doesn't cover anyway.

Only 14 are missing from the ownership list: BNN, CNL, GCN, LEX, LKL, LTM, NSF, NYF, PLS, SAY, SPP, TRC, VAS, WMA.

If someone opens up a Google Doc, or messages me their email address, I can share it.

By the way, funny story about looking for these. I came across a purported 2012 xls sheet of the simple station list. It was on two sketchy sites that collect government docs, said Google. One had no data, and the other was offered at some price. The one with no data had instead two letters from the Amtrak FOIA office. Seems whatever worthy person requested the station list, got it in pdf format, requested it again in xls, was denied, appealed, and the appeal was denied. That would be a good story for the Transit Costs Project at NYU, relevant to transparency. The Amtrak FOIA page hints it gets lots of requests, and there makes available the most commonly requested ones, it says.

Here you go. You may need to add the https:// part as it was trying to embed the spreadsheet to view and we don't need that right now. And not set as a link so need to cut and paste for the same reason.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GCTpsGh5Rj-VTsD8xM1a8OC9iMD8gQe_N0WDcwZRF7s/edit?usp=sharing

Google Sheet is just a start with two columns I froze the top row. Anyone with a link can edit. I'll make a backup to save from anyone messing it up but we seem to be friendly group and likely not needed.

 

[MarkInAustin]

Worthy effort, to which I have nothing to add, but I look forward to the development of this information resource. Thanks.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Here you go. You may need to add the https:// part as it was trying to embed the spreadsheet to view and we don't need that right now. And not set as a link so need to cut and paste for the same reason.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GCTpsGh5Rj-VTsD8xM1a8OC9iMD8gQe_N0WDcwZRF7s/edit?usp=sharing

Google Sheet is just a start with two columns I froze the top row. Anyone with a link can edit. I'll make a backup to save from anyone messing it up but we seem to be friendly group and likely not needed.

Thank you. I imported the CSV to it.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

Thank you. I imported the CSV to it.

Well done. I think the only thing that is missing that I have noticed someone having questions on is platform length and cover from rain. Maybe info about steps/escalaotor/elevator could be interesting to know.

 

[jis]

Well done. I think the only thing that is missing that I have noticed someone having questions on is platform length and cover from rain. Maybe info about steps/escalaotor/elevator could be interesting to know.

I think information about platform length and coverage in all detail would be quite an effort specially at large stations which have platforms of many different lengths, some through and some terminating etc.. Perhaps it would be more fruitful to capture information about the longest and shortest platform in multi-platform stations instead of trying to capture complete platform length information. Also useful would be number of platforms at each station.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

I think information about platform length and coverage in all detail would be quite an effort specially at large stations which have platforms of many different lengths, some through and some terminating etc.. Perhaps it would be more fruitful to capture information about the longest and shortest platform in multi-platform stations instead of trying to capture complete platform length information. Also useful would be number of platforms at each station.

True, I am not getting much on NYP from Google Earth. Most stations are 1 platfrom or one that is use with others long dormant like Tampa. Or Greensboro has two platforms but not for the number of trains but just the fact the Crescent and Carolinian/Piedmonts diverge here. Those two platforms are of different length.

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

I added some more columns. I have no idea about x- and y- coordinates beyond it is some sort of latitude and longitude in a special format. Google Earth was not having it.

I added some links to go straight to the RPA and/or Amtrak factsheets. I assume RPA would not mind. They do not have them behind a paywall that I can tell. I also included a link to the Amtrak website for the station and the Great American Station website for the station. I also included the link for the Wikipedia page for the station. Those pages are full of information. I am done with my home station, Greensboro. I used Google Earth to measure the platforms and covers. Greensboro's platform are curved so I did segments and rounded to the nearest 5 ft. Being a science teacher it pained me to measure in feet instead of meters butI did it while I was holding my breath.

You can edit and such if you have the link. Hopefully some of you will edit your home station.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GCTpsGh5Rj-VTsD8xM1a8OC9iMD8gQe_N0WDcwZRF7s/edit#gid=1773921283

 

[Matthew H Fish]

I started making a tally sheet by going through the wikipedia articles for stations one by one, but that spreadsheet really sped up the process!


This chart has so many asterisks attached, but I think it gives an interesting way to start to think about the data. Cities are the single largest owner of Amtrak stations, and in fact, own about half of them. Freight railroads also own a lot.
When going through the data, I had to make a few guesses---historical societies that own stations I called "Other", but if it seemed to be a for-profit thing, I called it "Private". Jeff is also among the "Private" owners. Since Federal and County are both so small, maybe I should have rolled them under "Other".

 

[Anderson]

County/Municipality probably go together.

What are the Federal stations? And how did you handle some of the goofier multi-party stations?

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

I started making a tally sheet by going through the wikipedia articles for stations one by one, but that spreadsheet really sped up the process!

View attachment 35644
This chart has so many asterisks attached, but I think it gives an interesting way to start to think about the data. Cities are the single largest owner of Amtrak stations, and in fact, own about half of them. Freight railroads also own a lot.
When going through the data, I had to make a few guesses---historical societies that own stations I called "Other", but if it seemed to be a for-profit thing, I called it "Private". Jeff is also among the "Private" owners. Since Federal and County are both so small, maybe I should have rolled them under "Private".

In the case of Greensboro, Southern RR sold the station to the city for $1 or $100. I ran across this and was posted on here a few weeks/months ago. That was the avoid potential property taxes and upkeep. Now the city of Greensboro owns the station. I bet that is the case for most all of these city owned stations. A few new stations such as Raleigh are city owned. Clearly the model now is, "If you want a station then build it, but we at Amtrak are not."

 

[Barb Stout]

County/Municipality probably go together.

What are the Federal stations? And how did you handle some of the goofier multi-party stations?

I'm wondering if the Federal stations are the ones that stop at national parks like West Glacier and East Glacier.

 

[PVD]

Pretty sure NYF is NYS Fair owned, tracks are CSX (temp use, only open for the duration of the fair)

 

[alanh]

The feds own the main station building in DC, although Amtrak owns the platforms and tracks,

 

[Matthew H Fish]

The information about the individual station is all in the great spreadsheet, I just made a graph to review.
There are all sorts of weird edge cases, but hopefully when viewed in total, it gives a good general impression.
The three federal stations are Washington DC, and two owned by the NPS--- Harper's Ferry and Jefferson City, Missouri.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

One thing is that some of the "Other" include museums or historical organizations, sometimes a foundation named after the station itself. So I put those in "Other", while things that seemed to be for-profit businesses I put in "Private", but a few times I guessed at that.

 

[west point]

very complicated problem.
1. Who owns the land? Is all the land controlled by just one entity or are portions owned by others? Is some or all land leased? Is the land subject to real estate taxes or just partial all or some?
2. Same questions about the buildings. Especially is station portions of building(s) exempt or treduced?
3. Same with platforms?
4. Same with track, signals. switches?
5. Same with servicing facilities such as potable watering?
6, Separate taxing districts different for each political agency that covers all of the above? Some which exempt and others do not. All or some?
7. Different states with various differences? Texarkana as an example
8. Utility charges different depending on various uses?

 

[Anderson]

very complicated problem.
1. Who owns the land? Is all the land controlled by just one entity or are portions owned by others? Is some or all land leased? Is the land subject to real estate taxes or just partial all or some?
2. Same questions about the buildings. Especially is station portions of building(s) exempt or treduced?
3. Same with platforms?
4. Same with track, signals. switches?
5. Same with servicing facilities such as potable watering?
6, Separate taxing districts different for each political agency that covers all of the above? Some which exempt and others do not. All or some?
7. Different states with various differences? Texarkana as an example
8. Utility charges different depending on various uses?

I know that at one point, RVR was:
-Tracks: CSX
-Station: Amtrak
-Parking lot: Part DRPT, part Henrico County

That latter resulted from a bungled lot expansion and led to several years of free parking in an unpaved part of the lot (until the state+county could sort out plans to pave the whole thing and deal with revenue...the county had paid for the land to expand the lot and wanted a cut of the revenue IIRC).

 

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

I added a column for frequency. NC has two stations are are used for the state fair and our BBQ festival so those are listed as Seasonal.

I was going more than just yes/no on staffed as some stations in NC have station attendants that at NC DOT employees, which can not sell tickets. So for NC Staffed can be Amtrak/NC DOT/No as options.

Thanks for adding in what has been but wanted to alert those that edited some of the stations already. I'll take care of NC over the next few days.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GCTpsGh5Rj-VTsD8xM1a8OC9iMD8gQe_N0WDcwZRF7s/edit?usp=sharing

 

[WBG Station 1935]

The Williamsburg station, is tucked in with the city administration building and firestation. It was built by C&O and John D Rockefeller buring the restoration of Colonial Williamsburg. In 2000 CW sold it to the city and it was restored.

So it's owned by the city, tracks are owned by CSX and serves as the intermodal transportation center.

 

[jpakala]

The Kirkwood [MO] Train Station Foundation, to which we (though not Kirkwood residents) and many others contribute is a splendid example of support for major preservation and longer-range enhancement projects. For years the garden club has helped provide flower beds, window boxes and also huge flower-urns here & there around the station exterior. Dozens of volunteers share staffing duties at the station and are very engaged compared to when Amtrak had an agent who in my experience didn't even get out of his chair (when you walked up to the high surrounding desk which now includes a guest & comment notebook). A little self-serve lending library, puzzles, magazines, some tables with built-in checkboard tops, glass cabinets with model trains, fine decorations (such as large "snowflakes" in the windows) at Christmas, etc. are among other amenities. Events include the Amtrak Day. The volunteers help whenever someone needs the wheelchair elevator unit or other aid. They keep everyone informed of the train status and work well with each trains' Amtrak employees. The volunteer staffing, gardening, etc. are not part of the Foundation and well predate its origin in 2013. ABOUT US - Kirkwood’s historic Train Station