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Guest_Ben_*
Guest
What is the track speed/condition between Phoenix and Cadiz, CA on the A&C? Could the Sunset Limited be routed onto this route to LA? Would it add a lot of time to the trip?
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the_traveler
Engineer
I think in points, it is VERY low (like 20-25 MPH)! If it is to get up to "normal" track speeds, it would need Millions of $s in investment - and with the SL only operating 3 days a week and UP running -0- trains on that stretch - the chances of that investment are slim to none! (If indeed it's that high! 
)
)George Harris
Engineer
Traveler: I believe that you are talking about the ex Southern Pacific line west of Phoenix that the Sunset Limited traditionally ran on. Ben it talking about the ex Santa Fe line that hits their main line at Cadiz, California.
The line now:
Phoenix to Matthie: 58.8 miles on the BNSF Phoenix Subdivision, unsigaled 49 mph limit, but with a number of speed restrictions, including 20 mph for the last 10 miles into Phoenix. This line meets the main line at Williams Junction 160 very crooked and hilly miles north of Matthie.
Mathie to Parker to Cadiz: 190.5 miles, based on an old Official Guide. This is now a short line. I know nothing about their speed limits, track conditions, or curves and grades.
Cadiz is 97.7 miles east of Barstow on the BNSF main line used by the Southwest Chief.
Barstow to Los Angeles is 156 miles in the Amtrak timetable.
Total distance by this route: 503 miles
The eastbound SW Chief takes 3h40m between LA and Barstow. Assuming speed limits on the other lines are up to whatever they were in about 1950, which could be a really bad assumption for the Matthie to Cadiz section, we would have something like:
Barstow to Cadiz: 1h40m
Cadiz to Matthie: 5 hours more or less - this would suggest a fairly fast speed limit for a branch line.
Matthie to Phoenix: 1h40m to maybe 2 hours.
Total time could be around 12 hours.
If Cadiz to Matthie would be limited to 40 mph or less, which is likely and if the low speed restrictions in approach to Phoenix could not be lifted, the time could easily be much longer.
The line now:
Phoenix to Matthie: 58.8 miles on the BNSF Phoenix Subdivision, unsigaled 49 mph limit, but with a number of speed restrictions, including 20 mph for the last 10 miles into Phoenix. This line meets the main line at Williams Junction 160 very crooked and hilly miles north of Matthie.
Mathie to Parker to Cadiz: 190.5 miles, based on an old Official Guide. This is now a short line. I know nothing about their speed limits, track conditions, or curves and grades.
Cadiz is 97.7 miles east of Barstow on the BNSF main line used by the Southwest Chief.
Barstow to Los Angeles is 156 miles in the Amtrak timetable.
Total distance by this route: 503 miles
The eastbound SW Chief takes 3h40m between LA and Barstow. Assuming speed limits on the other lines are up to whatever they were in about 1950, which could be a really bad assumption for the Matthie to Cadiz section, we would have something like:
Barstow to Cadiz: 1h40m
Cadiz to Matthie: 5 hours more or less - this would suggest a fairly fast speed limit for a branch line.
Matthie to Phoenix: 1h40m to maybe 2 hours.
Total time could be around 12 hours.
If Cadiz to Matthie would be limited to 40 mph or less, which is likely and if the low speed restrictions in approach to Phoenix could not be lifted, the time could easily be much longer.
sky12065
Conductor
I'm a bit confused by this discussion. Could you tell me why you're even asking about routing the SL through Cadiz? It seems to me that you're trying to theorize a way one could train to Phoenix. And if that's so, why should it even be thought about since Phoenix is only 35 miles from the Maricopa AZ stop on the SL. If I'm out in left field in my thoughts, please forgive me. As I said "I'm a bit confused!"
There is no service (hotel, car rental, etc.) at Maricopa. Even there is no public transportation. That's why Maricopa is isolated from Phoenix.
sky12065
Conductor
Thanks! I wasn't familiar with Maricopa. I checked car rentals and the nearest seems to be National but it's around 20 miles away! However I still question why? (especially with track conditions, as explained in prior posts, being what they are) Amtrak has bus service from Flagstaff via the SWC as well as Tucson via the SL or the TE routes.
It's a shame that such a large populas area like Phoenix and it's surrounding communities has not been directly serviced for around 12 years now and it would be great if it were once again serviced in the future, but without the prospects of that happening anytime soon, I do find that their are acceptable alternatives. In our trip last month to Mesa, we took the SWC from CHI to FLG where we picked up a rental from Hertz right at the station. Hertz keeeps an agent available until the SWC arrives and in our case that was 5 hours late - around 1:30 - 2:00 in the AM. Amtraks bus service could have also been used. The same scenario goes for Tucson, which is about 30 miles closer to Phoenix than Flagstaff, but would have made for a longer train trip from CHI.
A private transportation company can pick them up at Maricopa and head/from Phoenix, but the problem is the Sunset Limited is three times a week. In a financial way, it's not feasible for them. If the train is daily, they will jump into it.
George Harris
Engineer
This route has been kicked around on several occasions as an alternative to the ex SP Phoenix Line West as a way of getting the Sunset into Phoenix and on west to LA without having to either rebuild the ex SP tracks west or backtrack to Picacho.
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G
Guest
Guest
IMHO, using the Cadiz to Mathie (then Phoenix) link, ASSUMING the track is usable for passenger, or restorable, or even capable, would allow a very creative reroute of the Sunset Limited to terminate in Bakersfield! This would demand a connection at Barstow with the SW Chief, and connections with the San Joaquins at Bakersfield. This should not require significant extra train miles for Amtrak.
This would do several things. First allow a direct route market and route for Stockton/Fresno/Bakersfield access to Phoenix/Tuscon in addition to Phoenix to LAX (connecting) service. The San Joaquin valley does not have great air service and has generally high air fares so this could generate good traffic for Amtrak over just a decent Phoenix connection.
Second, SW Chief passengers would have direct access to Oakland/SF and SJ valley points, and again should generate additional traffic.
Third, an alternate route for Portland/Seattle to LAX passengers.
Fourth, If Pioneer, Desert Wind, or Las Vegas service is restored connections at Barstow could be then made for LAX via Mojavie, Las Vegas, Salt Lake, Bosie, Portland.
Are there problems? Sure! Track, equipment availablility, crew base, maintainance bases come to mind. But it does seem like a least effort modification with high potential gain. One idea, is if the track in Phoenix is so bad, a public purchase with lease back to the Class 1's might just pay back enough to "revenue bond" the purchase. Whether one entity or a partnership of Feds/State/Amtrak does not matter, it might pencil out.
This would do several things. First allow a direct route market and route for Stockton/Fresno/Bakersfield access to Phoenix/Tuscon in addition to Phoenix to LAX (connecting) service. The San Joaquin valley does not have great air service and has generally high air fares so this could generate good traffic for Amtrak over just a decent Phoenix connection.
Second, SW Chief passengers would have direct access to Oakland/SF and SJ valley points, and again should generate additional traffic.
Third, an alternate route for Portland/Seattle to LAX passengers.
Fourth, If Pioneer, Desert Wind, or Las Vegas service is restored connections at Barstow could be then made for LAX via Mojavie, Las Vegas, Salt Lake, Bosie, Portland.
Are there problems? Sure! Track, equipment availablility, crew base, maintainance bases come to mind. But it does seem like a least effort modification with high potential gain. One idea, is if the track in Phoenix is so bad, a public purchase with lease back to the Class 1's might just pay back enough to "revenue bond" the purchase. Whether one entity or a partnership of Feds/State/Amtrak does not matter, it might pencil out.
Since, if I'm reading the schedules correctly, this would have you sitting in Maricopa for at least 6 or 12 hours( depending on whether you're leaving/going to Phoenix or Tempe), I'd have to say -- No thanks, I'll walk!( which would be also insane, btw).
Ed
George Harris
Engineer
To somewhat close the loop on this discussion:
BNSF route: Phoenix - Matthie - Parker - Cadiz - Barstow - Los Angeles: 503 miles
UP -Southern Pacific original route: Phoenix - Yuma - Colton - Los Angeles: 387 miles
Should California and Arizona ever decide to go the high speed rail route between these places, this distance could be coverred in under 3 hours, possibly 2.5.
BNSF route: Phoenix - Matthie - Parker - Cadiz - Barstow - Los Angeles: 503 miles
UP -Southern Pacific original route: Phoenix - Yuma - Colton - Los Angeles: 387 miles
Should California and Arizona ever decide to go the high speed rail route between these places, this distance could be coverred in under 3 hours, possibly 2.5.
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