Pioneer and three others coming back?

Advertise with us
Shop deals on ebay
shop deals on amazon
Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
This article is the continuing saga of the Crapo Amendment of 2007. There was a Crapo Amendment to PRIIA 2008. And of course there were corresponding articles like this one from his office:

https://www.crapo.senate.gov//media/newsreleases/senate-adopts-crapo-amtrak-amendment
This resulted in a PRIIA Section 224 study of the route

https://transitzac.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/amtrak_pioneerservicestudy.pdf
All the numbers in that article are quoted from this study which are in 2008-2010 dollars.

So bottom line is 28%-33% farebox recovery, and assuming Amtrak is lowballing one could possibly add another 5 percentage point to that, but I suspect not much more. So anyone that is ready to contribute of the order of $25 to $35 million per year plus some startup which can be wangled out of Congress, should get this project going. ;) And then of course there is UP to deal with.
 
jis said:
This article is the continuing saga of the Crapo Amendment of 2007. There was a Crapo Amendment to PRIIA 2008. And of course there were corresponding articles like this one from his office:

https://www.crapo.senate.gov//media/newsreleases/senate-adopts-crapo-amtrak-amendment
This resulted in a PRIIA Section 224 study of the route

https://transitzac.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/amtrak_pioneerservicestudy.pdf
All the numbers in that article are quoted from this study which are in 2008-2010 dollars.

So bottom line is 28%-33% farebox recovery, and assuming Amtrak is lowballing one could possibly add another 5 percentage point to that, but I suspect not much more. So anyone that is ready to contribute of the order of $25 to $35 million per year plus some startup which can be wangled out of Congress, should get this project going. ;) And then of course there is UP to deal with.
Click to expand...
So, not strictly impossible but certainly nowhere near easy much less a done deal.
 
OlympianHiawatha said:
We've been hearing the same song and dance in Oklahoma regarding extending the Heartland Flyer into Kansas for at least 15 years and we are no closer to that becoming a reality than we were on Day 1 of HF service.
Click to expand...
It's now on official Amtrak maps and docs as something the're planning to do, or is that not new?
 
OlympianHiawatha said:
We've been hearing the same song and dance in Oklahoma regarding extending the Heartland Flyer into Kansas for at least 15 years and we are no closer to that becoming a reality than we were on Day 1 of HF service.
Click to expand...
This is not an Amtrak Train, they just Operate it and Supply Equipment.

Remember, this Train depends on funding from Texas and Oklahoma, both of whom have threatened to withhold funding in the past.

And Kansas, which is in a financial mess due to its Government's policies,would be asked to fund it too!
 
OMG...i went to school in caldwell idaho and was thrilled when i took my son on the pioneer, one my absolutely fav routes and would so like to take my grand...
 
hlcteacher said:
OMG...i went to school in caldwell idaho and was thrilled when i took my son on the pioneer, one my absolutely fav routes and would so like to take my grand...
Click to expand...
When the state rail passenger associations worked on the Pioneer most recently in 2009 we concluded that Caldwell should replace Nampa as a stop.
 
although caldwell was not a "stop" it was a crew change and they were nice enough to let us get off so i could show my kid exactly where his mom lived for awhile in the dorm! he had never forgotten it...i did the pioneer several times and miss it
 
The one Amtrak fallen flag that I really like to see reinstated is the Amtrak Pioneer. Not only would it return passenger service to Wyoming, but also it would allow a direct route from Utah to the Northwest.

I don't know if the Pioneer will ever return, but if it did, I was thinking about whether, or not, many of the old train stations/depots along the route could be returned to service. However, most all of the old depots need to be renovated. The ones in better condition now house various museums, art centers, hotels, etc. Possibly, in such cases, a portion of the building could, once again, be used as a train station.

There was an article in the November issued of TRAINS magazine concerning the 113 year old UP train depot in Green River, Wyoming. The Green River community wants the old depot restored and possibly used to house a museum, craft shops, brewery, event center, etc. If the Pioneer route should return, how about having the building once again serve as a train depot?

I hate to see some of the newer, quick-build, prefab cracker box depots that Amtrak now uses.

There are a lot of picturesque old Amtrak stations and depots still standing along the old Pioneer route.

Cheyenne, WY


Rawlins, WY


Rock Springs, WY


Green River, WY


Ogden, UT (station lobby)


Pocatello, ID


Boise, ID


The Dalles, OR


Hood River, OR
 
Last edited:
Northwestern said:
The one Amtrak fallen flag that I really like to see reinstated is the Amtrak Pioneer. Not only would it return passenger service to Wyoming, but also it would allow a direct route from Utah to the Northwest.

I don't know if the Pioneer will ever return, but if it did, I was thinking about whether, or not, many of the old train stations/depots along the route could be returned to service. However, most all of the old depots need to be renovated. The ones in better condition now house various museums, art centers, hotels, etc. Possibly, in such cases, a portion of the building could, once again, be used as a train station.

There was an article in the November issued of TRAINS magazine concerning the 113 year old UP train depot in Green River, Wyoming. The Green River community wants the old depot restored and possibly used to house a museum, craft shops, brewery, event center, etc. If the Pioneer route should return, how about having the building once again serve as a train depot?

I hate to see some of the newer, quick-build, prefab cracker box depots that Amtrak now uses.

There are a lot of picturesque old Amtrak stations and depots still standing along the old Pioneer route.

Cheyenne, WY


Rawlins, WY


Rock Springs, WY


Green River, WY


Ogden, UT (station lobby)


Pocatello, ID


Boise, ID


The Dalles, OR


Hood River, OR
Click to expand...
cocojacoby said:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/amtrak-passenger-train-boise-ended-100000258.html
(Got to find out what the other 3 are)
Click to expand...
My absolute favorite route, zephyr to slc and then north! i lived in caldwell, id, which was not a "stop"but was a crew change, so i was able to show my son and my bff where i lived (college of idaho), and then the glorious snake and columbia rivers to seattle...bring it back (and the desert wind that wound through glorious deserts to and from vegas to la (we took if form seattle)
cocojacoby said:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/amtrak-passenger-train-boise-ended-100000258.html
(Got to find out what the other 3 are)
Click to expand...
 
In 2008 a friend and I took a rental car the length of the route to document the stations in preparation for the PRIIA "study". We also looked at alternative stations. Caldwell was our recommendation instead of Nampa. Gooding was our recommendation instead of Shoshone. In the video presentation we had Boardman instead of Hinkle, but subsequently Stanfield expressed interest.

Here's a link to some of the material the Pioneer Restoration Organization collected:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/135141530@N04/albums/72157668130775833
Go to the end of the album and then work toward the beginning of the slides to get PowerPoints to appear in oldest to newest order.

Salt Lake City, back when it was "the Crossroads of the West."
SLC05 Pioneer.jpg
 
I am all for restoration of the Pioneer service BUT there is no equipment to put it in service right now. You can't put the "cart before the horse" I would also like to see the Desert Wind return but Brightline will probably have this route in service before Amtrak. My main interest would be the restoration of the National Ltd as a straight path from the East to the midwest without going out of the way through Chicago. That would require rebuilding part of the ROW. All great ideas here BUT again no equipment is available at the present time.
 
Willbridge said:
In 2008 a friend and I took a rental car the length of the route to document the stations in preparation for the PRIIA "study". We also looked at alternative stations. Caldwell was our recommendation instead of Nampa. Gooding was our recommendation instead of Shoshone. In the video presentation we had Boardman instead of Hinkle, but subsequently Stanfield expressed interest.

Here's a link to some of the material the Pioneer Restoration Organization collected:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/135141530@N04/albums/72157668130775833
Go to the end of the album and then work toward the beginning of the slides to get PowerPoints to appear in oldest to newest order.

Salt Lake City, back when it was "the Crossroads of the West."
View attachment 34498
Click to expand...
thank you
 
dlagrua said:
I am all for restoration of the Pioneer service BUT there is no equipment to put it in service right now. You can't put the "cart before the horse" I would also like to see the Desert Wind return but Brightline will probably have this route in service before Amtrak. My main interest would be the restoration of the National Ltd as a straight path from the East to the midwest without going out of the way through Chicago. That would require rebuilding part of the ROW. All great ideas here BUT again no equipment is available at the present time.
Click to expand...
I hear what you are saying but isn't always the case? Amtrak decides on a new route, gets approval then obtains the new equipment to operate on the route. I wouldn't expect Amtrak to have surplus equipment sitting around waiting for a new route.
 
In a sense, Amtrak should be celebrating the 50th anniversary of trying not to add service due to equipment shortages. VIA Rail will come to that anniversary a few years from now. Catch 22 comes to mind.

In our submission for the 2008/9 "study" we suggested running the Pioneer as a Seattle <> Portland <> Denver train, rather than going through to Chicago, so it could use various types of equipment, including add-ons to single-level subfleet orders. Amtrak instead proposed a Seattle <> Portland <> Salt Lake City train with through Superliner cars to Chicago, and a whopping big layover in SLC. Very clever: wait for rolling stock that is many years in the future, only order enough cars for existing service, and then if the train actually starts up two decades after the study, build in a fatal flaw.
 
Willbridge said:
In a sense, Amtrak should be celebrating the 50th anniversary of trying not to add service due to equipment shortages. VIA Rail will come to that anniversary a few years from now. Catch 22 comes to mind.

Very clever: wait for rolling stock that is many years in the future, only order enough cars for existing service, and then if the train actually starts up two decades after the study, build in a fatal flaw.
Click to expand...

The conspiracy theories come home!

Wait, but I agree with this. Do everything possible to prevent expansion. New routes or just 10 block further south to a airport station.

“Built in fatal flaw” might be my new favorite terminology.
 
Just-Thinking-51 said:
The conspiracy theories come home!

Wait, but I agree with this. Do everything possible to prevent expansion. New routes or just 10 block further south to a airport station.

“Built in fatal flaw” might be my new favorite terminology.
Click to expand...
Since even President Biden has to be brought along kicking and screaming into the business of actually populating the Board with people other than politically friendly bureaucratic hacks, the prognosis often seems bleak. As things stand we are yet to get the Board fixed, including its Chair.

However, the fact that Pioneer route is a highly visible item on the LD Network Study of the FRA, maybe something will happen. But we have to keep the pressure on on Congress for funding appropriation and the Executive for executing what has been legislated in proper spirit instead of the normal bureaucratic foot dragging to somehow just do the minimal and hope the rest falls through the cracks.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top