Possible abandonment of Canadian National into Chicago?

[Larry H.]

Don't know if this has come up somewhere here but I was shocked to read the morning Centraila Sentinel for Jan. 11, 07. " The city Chamber Executive Director Bob Kelsheimer made an announcement that would effect not only Centralia but the entire area around the city. According to Kelsheimer the City is in danger of losing Amtrak service because the city of Chicago is promoting a development agreement with the Canadian National Railway that owns the track that run from Centralia to Union Station in downtown Chicato. Chicago is encouraging the CN to abandon the line coming into Chicago because it runs next to lake Michigan and is prime land for development".

That would appear to mean all short distance as well as City of New Orleans which uses the same route! Anyone heard anything about this. Sounds pretty scary but I wouldn't think very possible?

 

[frj1983]

Don't know if this has come up somewhere here but I was shocked to read the morning Centraila Sentinel for Jan. 11, 07. " The city Chamber Executive Director Bob Kelsheimer made an announcement that would effect not only Centralia but the entire area around the city. According to Kelsheimer the City is in danger of losing Amtrak service because the city of Chicago is promoting a development agreement with the Canadian National Railway that owns the track that run from Centralia to Union Station in downtown Chicato. Chicago is encouraging the CN to abandon the line coming into Chicago because it runs next to lake Michigan and is prime land for development". That would appear to mean all short distance as well as City of New Orleans which uses the same route! Anyone heard anything about this. Sounds pretty scary but I wouldn't think very possible?

I think Mr. Kelsheimer might be a little confused...there is talk, even some planning about CN/IC abandoning the use of the St. Charles Airline which goes over the Amtrak yards south of Union Station and then proceeeds east to the lakefront CN/IC trackage. The plan is for Amtrak to use the Ex-Santa Fe tracks going straight south out of Union Station and then creating a connecting track that will join the CN/IC about 3 miles south of the City. I have not read anywhere about abandoning the rest of that line!

 

[user 1215]

I wouldn't put anything past Chicago's dictatorship. They freakin' illegally closed a very popular and busy airport to convert it into a park.

 

[frj1983]

I wouldn't put anything past Chicago's dictatorship. They freakin' illegally closed a very popular and busy airport to convert it into a park.

VentureForth,

Your point about the airport is true, however, Mayor Dailey's big point is to get rid of the St Charles Airline and open up the area for development east of the river. I don't think he's concerned about tracks anywhere else...besides he's more worried about the Olympic Bid right now...which I fervently hope and pray will NEVER come to pass!

 

[Larry H.]

Local radio stations are also confirming the story, but may well all be based on the newspaper article. I would have thought too that some other way out of chicago would certainly be found should such an abandonment proceed. In reality I have always thought the cumbersome route into chicago could be much improved with some thought put into it. I can't quote the radio as my mom mentioned it, but she did say the ridership downstate on that line was in the millions last year and huge ridership to such locations as Carbondale and Champaign would surely cause Amtrak to want to maintain some connection to those towns.

 

[battalion51]

I think the connection that frj is referring to is a part of the larger CREATE initiative. For anyone who has been keeping up on CREATE it's stalled out right now waiting for federal money. So while the city may be pushing to abandon the route, at least this portion of CREATE will have to happen before they can really get rid of the route. I think if CN were to file to abandon the route it would be declined very quickly after large protests by Amtrak, the state, and the cities downstate served by these services.

 

[meatpuff]

Local radio stations are also confirming the story, but may well all be based on the newspaper article. I would have thought too that some other way out of chicago would certainly be found should such an abandonment proceed. In reality I have always thought the cumbersome route into chicago could be much improved with some thought put into it. I can't quote the radio as my mom mentioned it, but she did say the ridership downstate on that line was in the millions last year and huge ridership to such locations as Carbondale and Champaign would surely cause Amtrak to want to maintain some connection to those towns.

I second that the Centralia paper is probably confused. Here's what I know of the history, for those who are interested. I'm sure many of you already know more than me...

Illinois Central passenger trains running from the south into Chicago, be they the electrified commuter line that is now the Metra Electric or the LD CHI-NOL trains, always went up to Central Station. This was at Randolph and Michigan (building is long-gone now), right next to Grant Park, and a terrific location. The IC joined Amtrak with everyone else in 1971, and for a time nothing changed. Amtrak had passenger trains coming and going from four different passenger terminals in Chicago, one of them Central Station. After a few years of operation they decided to consolidate them all at Union Station. This isn't so easy, because Central Station is the better part of a mile east of Union Station through some of the most densely populated real estate in the country. So they diverted the City of N.O. and the Illini south of the CBD onto an old lakefront rail line, the St. Charles Airline (now CN-owned) that could take them to Union Station. It was kind of out of the way and required backing the train up, but it worked.

The St. Charles Airline is to be eliminated through a public-private State of Illinois infrastructure program known as CREATE. See, for example the question "How will CREATE increase space near the lakefront?" at http://www.createprogram.org/faq.html . The plan for CREATE is finished but right now it is only partially funded, so eliminating the St. Charles Airline isn't immediately imminent but will happen. But also part of CREATE is to rebuild a connection so that trains on the IC can go more directly into Union Station, as the previous poster mentioned (see here http://www.midwesthsr.org/promote_create.htm ). So the passenger rail advocacy associations around here are all CREATE because when it's all finished it will shave 15-20 minutes off the CHI-CDL run due to the shorter route. Which is a pretty big chunk of time to pick up with a fairly simple fix. And Daley is all for it because it will open real estate near the lake for development by getting rid of a rail line that I don't think is used for much else besides these 3 Amtrak RTs per day.

So looks like the Centralia fellow only got half the story. This should actually be a good thing. And the one other reason I'm not worried is that passenger rail actually has a surprising amount of momentum in the state at the moment, including with the state government. And finally, there is no way CN is abandoning the entire old IC line from CHI-NOL. It has fairly heavy freight traffic and is in great repair.

 

[Bruce]

While the St Charles Air Line would/could be abandoned under the CREATE plan, it is necessary to route all CN (former IC) somewhere, somehow, to 'the rest of the world'.

That's why CN is trying to buy the EJ&E as a means of connecting its northern route (former Soo) to the East (former GTW) and south (former IC). If the feds allow the purchase to go through, there is no reason whatsoever for CN to continue using/maintaining the St Charles Air Line, as the connecting trains would then leave the IC at the Harvey connection with EJ&E.

Should this happen, Amtrak will either have to pay to operate/maintain/own the St Charles Air line (and possibly the trackage north of Harvey), or, build (restore, actually) the connection at Grand Crossing (where the IC goes under the NW (former PRR & NYC) to get to Union Station, or, as a last resort, reroute the IC trains via some circuitous route to get from the station to the IC trackage. Abandonment is not likely, as the State of Illinois is quite commited to supporting rail travel.

 

[Kramerica]

Your point about the airport is true, however, Mayor Dailey's big point is to get rid of the St Charles Airline and open up the area for development east of the river. I don't think he's concerned about tracks anywhere else...besides he's more worried about the Olympic Bid right now...which I fervently hope and pray will NEVER come to pass!

Why don't you want Chicago to get the Olympics? Just curious. I'm in the Milwaukee area, so I'd get benefits without any of the potential hassles.

About the St. Charles Airline: How is abandoning it along the lakefront going to open up any new development land? Doesn't it sit right next to the Metra Electric tracks, which presumably would stay? It just doesn't seem like an abondoned SCA would be that great of a development space. The E-W portion yes, but the lakefront portion, no.

 

[Trogdor]

Don't the Olympics tend to cost cities more to prepare for them (i.e. build all the junk needed to host a few events) than they actually get in revenue?

I've only been in this city for just under two years, but the sense I get is that Chicago has a lot of infrastructure issues (particularly with mass transit) that need to be addressed. While the Olympics will drive investment in transportation infrastructure, it may not necessarily drive the *right* investment. Meaning, we could build a lot of flashy new stuff that won't be needed in October 2016, while stuff that is needed still won't be fixed. Meanwhile, we'll be about a billion dollars in debt paying for all the flashy new stuff.

That may be a simplistic view of things, but that's what I've heard a lot of people saying around here.

 

[Amtrak OBS Employee gone freight]

Knowing the intense commitment the State of Illinois has in regard to the support of rail travel, as one poster already states, it is VERY unlikely an abandonment of this magnitude will occur. I highly doubt it, and I don't think Amtrak is too concerned about it anyway. And I am sure there are contigency plans in place should this come to pass. The "City" is one of the long distance trains being focused on (the Cross County Dining for example), and is a rather important train within the state of Illinois as it sees quite a bit of ridership especially between Carbondale and Chicago along with the other short distance trains. OBS gone freight...

 

[Steve4031]

Chicago will never get the Olympics because we have a third world transportation system that could not handle the overflow of people. Our expressways are already jammed, even on weekends.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

New York ain't any better. IIRC, New York hasn't seen much in the way of new roads since Robert Moses got canned (which was overdue by then)

 

[AlanB]

New York ain't any better. IIRC, New York hasn't seen much in the way of new roads since Robert Moses got canned (which was overdue by then)

Actually thanks to our superior transit system, NY actually is in much better shape than most major US cities. Despite the fact that we really haven't had many new roads built since Robert Moses, and most of those roads are only 3 lanes in each direction, NYC doesn't rank in the top 10 for most time lost sitting in traffic while commuting to work. Cities like LA, Dallas, and Atlanta all of which have highways with 4, 5, 6, even 7 lanes in each direction are in the top ten for most time lost, because they don't have the system that we have here in NYC.

Amtrak brings in around 60,000 people on a work day, NJT almost 200,000, MN I believe is up to about 220,000, and the LIRR is pushing 300,000 per day. And that's just people moved into/out of NYC, those railroads also move a fair amount of people in between other stations that don't serve NYC. And then there is the subway which moves something like a million people per day.

If we were to put all those people on the roads, then I have no doubt that we would rank in the top 10, if not number 1.

 

[battalion51]

If you didn't have the trains you'd have chaos. :lol:

 

[AlanB]

If you didn't have the trains you'd have chaos. :lol:

Which is what most other major US cities already have.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I was referring to roads only. Canning Moses and replacing his TBTA with the MTA was perhaps the most intelligent decision ever made in the history of a US city. Because of it New York has had the capacity to expand long after the other cities infrastructure reached their capacity.

Your numbers are off though. A million people ride New York's subway daily? Try, on average, 5,076,000. Penn Station serves about 600,000 people per day (thats Amtrak, NJT, MN WOH, and LIRR), MN handles about 216,000 a day. But that fails to take into account several other serious mechanisms. Hundreds of thousands come across each day on various ferries, and then there's the PATH, which handles another 250,000 people. And lest we forget, NYC is the only major city with 24/7 rapid transit.

However, the problem is: the nature of people visiting from far away tends to mean the need to use roads, because quite a few people (read: Americans from places other than New York) are generally less than comfortable with mass transit. Also, the MTA is operating close to capacity, a problem that is going to be compounded by Bloomberg's brilliant congestion charging plan. I fully support it, but capacity is going to need expansion to handle it. You have to be a neanderthal to drive into the city anyway.

 

[George Harris]

And lest we forget, NYC is the only major city with 24/7 rapid transit. . . .

You have to be a neanderthal to drive into the city anyway.

Unless you mean rail only, New York is not the only city with 24/7 rapid transit. San Francisco has a very widespread series of "Owl" bus routes that give reasonable middle of the night frequencies.

Neanderthals: known a few that did it as tourists, even after being told it was a bad idea.

 

[wayman]

And lest we forget, NYC is the only major city with 24/7 rapid transit. . . .

You have to be a neanderthal to drive into the city anyway.

Unless you mean rail only, New York is not the only city with 24/7 rapid transit. San Francisco has a very widespread series of "Owl" bus routes that give reasonable middle of the night frequencies.

Neanderthals: known a few that did it as tourists, even after being told it was a bad idea.

Philly's subway runs all night, and so does the hi-speed-rail. There is also a loose network of all-night buses in the city and through the suburbs.

Having been tutored by a few lifelong-Manhattan families, I'm now actually quite fond of driving into and in Manhattan. It's astoundingly efficient when you know how to use the avenues to your advantage (there's little more empowering than driving straight for ninety city blocks with green lights at every intersection). It helps a lot that I've also been instructed on the fine art of finding long-term free (and *legal*) parking in (safe parts of) Manhattan. I'll take driving into/in NYC over Boston any day of the week.

Though the only reason I'd actually drive into NYC is if I were bringing in or taking out cargo that requires a personal vehicle!

 

[meatpuff]

And lest we forget, NYC is the only major city with 24/7 rapid transit. . . .

You have to be a neanderthal to drive into the city anyway.

Unless you mean rail only, New York is not the only city with 24/7 rapid transit. San Francisco has a very widespread series of "Owl" bus routes that give reasonable middle of the night frequencies.

Neanderthals: known a few that did it as tourists, even after being told it was a bad idea.

Philly's subway runs all night, and so does the hi-speed-rail. There is also a loose network of all-night buses in the city and through the suburbs.

Let's not forget Chicago. The CTA Blue and Red lines run their entire routes 24/7.

I think I read someplace else the list of all 24/7 *rail* rapid transit services in the USA. I think now we've covered them all. Those being MTA, PATH, SEPTA and CTA.

-meatpuff

 

[AlanB]

And lest we forget, NYC is the only major city with 24/7 rapid transit. . . .

You have to be a neanderthal to drive into the city anyway.

Unless you mean rail only, New York is not the only city with 24/7 rapid transit. San Francisco has a very widespread series of "Owl" bus routes that give reasonable middle of the night frequencies.

Neanderthals: known a few that did it as tourists, even after being told it was a bad idea.

Philly's subway runs all night, and so does the hi-speed-rail. There is also a loose network of all-night buses in the city and through the suburbs.

Let's not forget Chicago. The CTA Blue and Red lines run their entire routes 24/7.

I think I read someplace else the list of all 24/7 *rail* rapid transit services in the USA. I think now we've covered them all. Those being MTA, PATH, SEPTA and CTA.

-meatpuff

Actually Philly's subway's don't run all night, they have bus service that replaces the trains after midnight. A few of the trolleys do run all night, but not the subways.

And the difference between the CTA and the NYC subway systems is that NYC provides subway service to all stations, but one, 24/7. And that one stop still gets a shuttle bus during the hours where the train doesn't serve it.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I was referring entirely to rail. Since buses are subject to local traffic, they don't qualify as rapid transit to me.

It ain't called the City that Never Sleeps for nothing.

 

[transit54]

My understanding is that NYC is the only rapid transit system in the world that is 24/7 to all stations. I have tried for some time to find another system that is, but simply have been unable to do so. Am I wrong?

 

[CNO RIDER]

The seriousness of the threat is real. As you remember, CN was not anxious to run the two extra passenger trains last year, and attempted at that time to eliminate the CNO and the Carbondale trains. The trains are operating on a tenous 1 year trail agreement right now.

The media coverage referred to was not releative to the St. Charles Airline, but rather to the CN takeover of the EJE. If Amtrak's trains are rerouted onto the EJE, there will be injection of much more uncertainty into the schedules, perhaps as much as two more hours between Carbondale and Chicago. I think the thread has gotten off subject. It has nothing to do with the Olympics, rather it is another insideous threat to eliminate a transit corridor altogether. I do agree with the commentor about the airport situation in Chicago being relevent though, there is validity to the comment that if an administration can arbitrarily plow up an airport runway in the middle of the night, it can certainly do the same to a railroad corridor.

Sure, the St. Charles Airline controversy has been long-simmering, and has been one method CN has thought of in the past for making passenger trains go away. Asking Amtrak to take over operation of the St. Charles Airline has been one possible kiss of death, as we all know Amtrak does not, and never will have, any money for acquiring infrastructure or lines. As it is, there is no money to acquire rolling stock or locomotives, and the poor company has been attritting itself out of existence for many years.

If you have run on the Cardinal/Statehouse, you can draw a comparison to the existing relatively smooth operation of the CNO's, the Saluki's, and so forth. There is a little slow running and the back up move to get out of the yard and onto the CN main, but it is nothing compared to the numerous stops that the Cardinal has to make in order to cross intersecting rail lines. Imagine, if you will, the additional congestion and delay that will occur if passenger trains are routed onto the EJE.

The Surface Transportation Board is holding local town meetings on the EJE issue right now, and sadly, no passenger rail advocates have spoken up on this matter. Rather it is just about a bunch of NIMBY's who moved up against the EJE to get back to nature, and would never agree to it actually running as a railroad.

 

[Matt McC]

While the St Charles Air Line would/could be abandoned under the CREATE plan, it is necessary to route all CN (former IC) somewhere, somehow, to 'the rest of the world'.
That's why CN is trying to buy the EJ&E as a means of connecting its northern route (former Soo) to the East (former GTW) and south (former IC). If the feds allow the purchase to go through, there is no reason whatsoever for CN to continue using/maintaining the St Charles Air Line, as the connecting trains would then leave the IC at the Harvey connection with EJ&E.

Should this happen, Amtrak will either have to pay to operate/maintain/own the St Charles Air line (and possibly the trackage north of Harvey), or, build (restore, actually) the connection at Grand Crossing (where the IC goes under the NW (former PRR & NYC) to get to Union Station, or, as a last resort, reroute the IC trains via some circuitous route to get from the station to the IC trackage. Abandonment is not likely, as the State of Illinois is quite commited to supporting rail travel.

The four track ex-IC main for suburban service is right next to the two and four-track freight main. Where is all this extra space coming from for development? The Metra electric line is not going anywhere and on the other side is mostly park land that by state law dating from the time of Daniel Burham cannot be developed.