Possible Schedule Change to SB Silver Meteor - train 97

[Qapla]

I'd also like to see 92 moved to an hour or so earlier so the SS can become the primary connecting train for the CL and have non-overnight NER connections for points north of NYP.

Do you mean an earlier departure of NB or SB?

The problem with making the NB earlier is that it would make a "day trip" to Tampa from north of there harder to do. Before we took a day trip we had no idea how many people do this on a regular basis.

 

[Palmland]

I had been focused on that 2001 schedule for the Meteor. But the Star’s southbound schedule is equally interesting. It looks like that may be what we have been discussing. The 4:30pm Washington departure should ensure a Capitol Ltd connection. And I like the the 11:30 NYP departure as it allows better times for outlying commuter train connections. But, the times in the Carolinas are bad. You can please some of the people some of the time but.....

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Do you mean an earlier departure of NB or SB?

The problem with making the NB earlier is that it would make a "day trip" to Tampa from north of there harder to do. Before we took a day trip we had no idea how many people do this on a regular basis.

Yes, I meant northbound. Day trips to Tampa would definitely become less viable, but I think the ridership losses would be much less than the gains from improving calling times at Jacksonville and Savannah and adding connections at NEC stations. Excluding bus connections, there are currently no same-day connections from Tampa or Raleigh to Chicago, and in turn everywhere west of there.

 

[neroden]

If they make the change to the Meteor (97) that is being rumbled about, they could concurrently push the departure of the Star a little later so that the connection between 30 and 92 becomes viable. I suppose the thing that gravitates against that is that such would lead it to run behind the Auto Train upto Selma instead of ahead of it IIRC.

A later Star or Meteor depature from NYP would have better connections from upstate NY as well, so I strongly support that...

 

[Qapla]

A third "Silver" train would be nice although I don't see that happening but it would make for some nice options for train times

 

[neroden]

Now that I've thought about this more carefully, I can see the benefit of a later 97 for someone who, for example, has to work til 5:00 but would like to leave for Florida that same day/evening, especially since the Star can pick up passengers from a lot of the same stations.

An evening departure from NY to Florida would solve a *lot* of problems, including creating reliable connections to Florida from upstate NY, Toronto, Montreal, Vermont, and Maine. Also West Virginia (via the Cardinal).

If it can be done while reducing the number of consists for the Meteor (which seems highly questionable to me), so much the better.

But for a station like FBG, where the Meteor stops but the Star doesn't, those passsengers are stuck leaving an outside, unstaffed station in the wee hours of the morning, which seems a bit hard on them.

Tell it to passengers at Elyria, OH or Bryan, OH -- or Elko, NV or Winnemucca, NV.

At least the climate for all the southern stations on the Meteor and Star is *warm*. I don't consider this a big deal.

Late thought: this will hurt within-Florida traffic, of course, but maybe Amtrak is finally looking forward, since Brightline is openly planning to seize all the within-Florida traffic in a few years anyway.

 

[Bonser]

An evening departure from NY to Florida would solve a *lot* of problems, including creating reliable connections to Florida from upstate NY, Toronto, Montreal, Vermont, and Maine. Also West Virginia (via the Cardinal).

If it can be done while reducing the number of consists for the Meteor (which seems highly questionable to me), so much the better.



Tell it to passengers at Elyria, OH or Bryan, OH -- or Elko, NV or Winnemucca, NV.

At least the climate for all the southern stations on the Meteor and Star is *warm*. I don't consider this a big deal.

Late thought: this will hurt within-Florida traffic, of course, but maybe Amtrak is finally looking forward, since Brightline is openly planning to seize all the within-Florida traffic in a few years anyway.

The SB Adirondack arrives at NYP at 8:50 PM. A 9:15 SM departure would bring it to South Florida near midnight and that's assuming it's on time.

 

[the_traveler]

Tell it to passengers at Elyria, OH or Bryan, OH -- or Elko, NV or Winnemucca, NV.

At least the climate for all the southern stations on the Meteor and Star is *warm*. I don't consider this a big deal.

Even though you may consider FBG as “a southern station” it is 55 miles south of WAS. The last time I was there, overnight temperatures were in the 20’s & 30’s! I at least would not call that “warm” - or want to wait outside at midnight for aa train.

And VRE (which also serves FBG) has “snow schedule” times showing which trains run on SNOW DAYS and which do not.

 

[jis]

The FBG problem is solved easily by having the Star stop there instead of the Meteor.

 

[Anderson]

With the choice of the 3:05 regional or the 3:15 SM, guess which I picked? Especially when the SM in the old days had real food.

One time I even took a roomette from NYP to FBG - even though it arrived at 8:30 pm - just so I could have dinner. The “flexible dining” killed that, I can’t even get real food in coach (except whatever you find in the cafe). I’m more inclined to consider the regional now.

Speaking of the food situation on the SM, the last time I went to FBG I went coach. A few rows from me, a passenger asked the coach attendant what time the dining car opens! (He was going from NYP to like GA or FL.) He had no idea that he only had the cafe all the way!

Oh, you and me both. I'd occasionally take the Meteor in a roomette from WAS to RVR since the price difference between that and BC on a Regional was usually at least 50% covered by the cost of the steak dinner (which by my estimate I did somewhere between 50 and 75 times over the years). NB, being able to grab breakfast heading north was always a winner.

We might not be able to make a connection to the Adirondack work (on the present timetable, at least), but it might be possible to massage a Montreal-bound Vermonter to that end.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Anyhow...I think the culprit here is VA shaking up its schedules with the additional Norfolk train. My guess is that there are a few interests lining up for this: VA has a reason to want 91 to go "somewhere else" and probably wouldn't mind 97 doing so as well so as to cover other timing markets. L

This has nothing to do with Virginia. It has everything to do with attempting to save a set of equipment.

 

[neroden]

While I deplore 'equipment saving' thinking, the improved connections make this a good idea.

 

[Anderson]

While I deplore 'equipment saving' thinking, the improved connections make this a good idea.

And I suspect it's more than just one thing. Shaking three sleepers and three or four coaches loose is definitely not a zero gain proposition (the diner and cafe are a more dubious bit); I can't speak to load factors, but in theory that's another sleeper and coach on the LSL, but I do suspect that somebody at HQ at least ran an analysis that said Amtrak wouldn't lose so much ridership with the move that it would neuter any gains.



Well, at least I hope they checked those numbers. These days, you never know.

 

[neroden]

LSL needs its food service back. It used to run full and have the highest coach sales in the dining car of any train. Saboteurs removed the ridership and revenue. I think Gardner was probably the saboteur.

 

[Anderson]

LSL needs its food service back. It used to run full and have the highest coach sales in the dining car of any train. Saboteurs removed the ridership and revenue. I think Gardner was probably the saboteur.

I'm going to point the finger in a more complicated direction. I don't think you're wrong, but there was a lot more going on (e.g. the Mica Mandate had a gun to Amtrak's head).

 

[neroden]

I'm going to point the finger in a more complicated direction. I don't think you're wrong, but there was a lot more going on (e.g. the Mica Mandate had a gun to Amtrak's head).

I don't buy that argument on the train with the highest cash dining car sales. On the Texas Eagle, where the dining car was consistently less than half full, sure, but it still has full dining service. It was kept where most unprofitable and removed where most profitable. I call that sabotage.

I can blame Amtrak's borked accounting, which means they probably had no idea how much revenue each dining car made or how much each one cost to operate.

However, a businesslike management would have retained and expanded full service on the LSL, where the market demand for sit down dining was demonstrated, and made cuts to the TE and CONO first -- trains where the dining car did not do enough business to be commercially viable.


Anyway, my point is that management sabotage of the LSL has reduced ridership enough that it currently does not need the extra sleeper and coach which it needed for years.

 

[Thirdrail7]

However, a businesslike management would have retained and expanded full service on the LSL, where the market demand for sit down dining was demonstrated,

Anyway, my point is that management sabotage of the LSL has reduced ridership enough that it currently does not need the extra sleeper and coach which it needed for years.

It is not only the LSL. I mentioned this years ago:

Additionally, I think a comparison to past operations will not yield much since Amtrak makes no real effort to make the car worthwhile. The trains don't even car the ridership to support it. Look at the puny trains that are operated. A great deal of passengers on a given train aren't designated long haul passengers. Plus, there is a cafe car competing for funds.

Bring back the cafeteria car and call it a day.

With the winter plan in effect, the LSL base coach consist is two out of NYP and one out of BOS. It is no wonder the dining car is now a lounge. You've eliminated its need by driving down ld ridership while providing a competing cafe car.

 

[Seaboard92]

There is something else I’ve heard rumored long time ago that also would make sense.

Rerouting the Crescent via RVR and RGH and it’s almost in the Meteors slot as it is right now. Then rerouting the Star via CVS and CLT taking it down the NS R line.

Stations that would lose would be CAM, HAM, and SOP.

But it wouldn’t be god awful.

 

[neroden]

With the winter plan in effect, the LSL base coach consist is two out of NYP and one out of BOS. It is no wonder the dining car is now a lounge. You've eliminated its need by driving down ld ridership while providing a competing cafe car.

The cafe car service has also been cut to the point where I suspect cafe sales are dropping, and I know ticket sales are. It's just sabotage -- attempts to drive down revenue, drive down ridership, and increase the need for Congressional subsidy. It's actually illegal, since they're supposed to be running it like a for-profit business -- running it like the bankrupt Penn Central is not running it like a for-profit business. But the only way to fix it is to get Congress to come down on the heads of the unbusinesslike Anderson and Gardner.

Add a full service dining car to the LSL, staff it enough to make eggs and bacon in the morning and steak and salad in the evening, advertise it, watch it make a profit, watch the train fill up.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

There is something else I’ve heard rumored long time ago that also would make sense.

Rerouting the Crescent via RVR and RGH and it’s almost in the Meteors slot as it is right now. Then rerouting the Star via CVS and CLT taking it down the NS R line.

Stations that would lose would be CAM, HAM, and SOP.

But it wouldn’t be god awful.

IMO that would add too much time to the schedule. It would be nice if better Carolinian/Piedmont connections were available to the SS and Crescent though, especially a train after 79 to connect to 19.

 

[cocojacoby]

Amtrak has just published a new Silver schedule effective May 1. No change for the NYP departure. Quick look shows times are the same throughout I think. The Silver Star diner has been added.

 

[west point]

There has not been any proposal to reroute the Crescent by way of RGH and RVR. However there has been proposals that the Crescent route needs a day time ATL - NYP train. That train would be serving a much higher population area by going ATL - CLT - RGH - RVR - WASH and to NYP.

Based on Carolinian times that route only would take 1 hour longer for any common stations. 19 hours end to end. However the route ends up connecting 5 capitols including WASH together.

Once the "S" line is restored the scheduled time will be same or maybe even slightly less than the present Crescent route. But end to end times are not important but all the intermediate city pairs will be. Departure times ? No later than 0530 from NYP and no later than 0630 from ATL. Of course this train has no chance of starting before 3 - 4 years in future while Amtrak waits for more equipment.

 

[JP1822]

For years Amtrak ran the Silver Meteor out of NYP at a post-5 pm time (typically 7 pm). This is not something brand new. It was a schedule that was in place for quite a few years and did make sense from equipment utilization. I do applaud Amtrak for looking to go back to a "same day turn" at NYC. As has been mentioned, the main advantage:

1) Increased connections from the North (particularly New England, Upstate NY, Lake Shore Limited, etc.). It had a very good following off of the Vermonter, and that was when the Vermonter did have the bus connection from Montreal. It was a tight and close connection in NYP between southbound Vermonter and southbound Silver Meteor, but it was done!
2) It saved an equipment set and allowed for a same day turn, thus reducing train sets required from four to three for the Silver Meteor.
3) The southbound Meteor had a great market following for people leaving from the Northeast to Richmond (it was the last train out for the evening, affording a full day of work in the Northeast - leave NYP at 7 pm arrive Richmond at midnight)
4) It provided passenger friendly arrival times to major station stops at Charleston and Savannah particular.
5) The southbound Meteor and Star were less on the rear markers of each other south of Savannah. Provided more travel time options, course it used to be NYP and MIA departures in early morning, mid-day, and evening - be it the Silver Meteor, Silver Star, or Silver Palm.
6) I hope they consider putting the three Silvers back in place.
7) The fourth train set could allow an additional sleeper to be put on the Silver Meteor. Silver Meteor regularly had three sleepers on it when departing at 7 pm out of NYP.
8) Amtrak could get away from serving dinner in the Diner leaving southbound. Thus, it you just have breakfast, lunch and dinner to provide for. Reduces the F&B costs while retaining revenue, and growing it if additional sleeper is added.
9) The main downfall was arrival into Miami - it was typically at a late hour, this is why Amtrak should really consider a trio of train service between NYP to Miami. Go back and look at the old time table schedule that was posted. It was a very popular schedule back then.
10) Amtrak advertised the "day room" service for the Viewliner Sleeping cars for travel south from Savannah and through Florida.

Amtrak only expanded the Silver Meteor to four train sets after the Three Rivers was bumped off (the sleepers from the Three Rivers went to create the fourth trainset for the Silver Meteor and eventually the coach cars were re-allocated too. If the northbound Silver Meteor was late, often times Amtrak would turn the Crescent and send it out as the southbound Meteor. They did some "rob Peter to pay Paul" back then. I think Amtrak could avoid that now though.....

 

[Anderson]

There has not been any proposal to reroute the Crescent by way of RGH and RVR. However there has been proposals that the Crescent route needs a day time ATL - NYP train. That train would be serving a much higher population area by going ATL - CLT - RGH - RVR - WASH and to NYP.

Based on Carolinian times that route only would take 1 hour longer for any common stations. 19 hours end to end. However the route ends up connecting 5 capitols including WASH together.

Once the "S" line is restored the scheduled time will be same or maybe even slightly less than the present Crescent route. But end to end times are not important but all the intermediate city pairs will be. Departure times ? No later than 0530 from NYP and no later than 0630 from ATL. Of course this train has no chance of starting before 3 - 4 years in future while Amtrak waits for more equipment.

The problem, at least for now, is that 19 hours end-to-end means that you have to leave before 0500 and/or arrive after 0000. Either of those would be murder on ridership at the "losing" end, and it is entirely possible to envision a train spilling a few hours further over that line to "save" ridership at the other end (basically, stretching the "overnight" bit as far as two-set operation would allow). There's probably a case to "only" run such a service ATL-WAS (which I believe the old Piedmont Limited did back in the 70s), which I think you could support on either route.

The other wrinkle is that CLT-RGH-RVR-WAS is set to have quite heavy service down the line while the other line doesn't have much to speak of (it has two trains in the morning as far down as LYH but that's about it, and the Cardinal isn't daily so you don't even have a daily reverse-peak service), and airline service to most of the airports between CLT and IAD/DCA is pretty thin versus what you get in RIC and RDU. There's also no parallel interstate to speak of (I-81 is too far west while I-85 is mostly too far east).

 

[MARC Rider]

8) Amtrak could get away from serving dinner in the Diner leaving southbound. Thus, it you just have breakfast, lunch and dinner to provide for. Reduces the F&B costs while retaining revenue, and growing it if additional sleeper is added.

Under the current schedule, the diner-lounge serves breakfast lunch and dinner, so what's the savings?