Possible Schedule Change to SB Silver Meteor - train 97

[Just-Thinking-51]

My guess is based upon their desire to tinker with the Silver Meteor. If they go through with it, you'll only need three for the Meteor, two for the Pigeon and four cars will go into the Crescent. That leaves one for a protect. That is hardly ideal but it is a possibility.

Maybe they'll just use them as axle cars.

Meteor uses 4 trains set, since you stated 3 train set and a desire to change it. One thinks we’re going back to a schedule that permits a same day turn around in NYC.

Now off to the schedule website to find out when that last occurs and what a same day turn looks like for connects, and major stops.

MODERATOR NOTE: Discussions of a possible Silver Meteor schedule change were moved to a its own new thread.

 

[chrsjrcj]

Meteor uses 4 trains set, since you stated 3 train set and a desire to change it. One thinks we’re going back to a schedule that permits a same day turn around in NYC.

Now off to the schedule website to find out when that last occurs and what a same day turn looks like for connects, and major stops.

I want to say it changed when the Silver Palm/Palmetto was truncated to Savannah in the Fall of 2004. I'm not sure how a later departure on 97 would benefit anything from a passenger perspective (from my view). At best, maybe a transfer to the Vermonter, but I'm not sure that's a big market.

If they do save a trainset, I'd hope to see that used to extend the Palmetto back to Miami, but that would probably require 2 additional trainsets.

 

[pennyk]

I want to say it changed when the Silver Palm/Palmetto was truncated to Savannah in the Fall of 2004. I'm not sure how a later departure on 97 would benefit anything from a passenger perspective (from my view). At best, maybe a transfer to the Vermonter, but I'm not sure that's a big market.

If they do save a trainset, I'd hope to see that used to extend the Palmetto back to Miami, but that would probably require 2 additional trainsets.

I recall in the 90's connecting from the Vermonter to the Silver Meteor in WAS. I seem to recall the Meteor left WAS around 11pm. As a frequent rider connecting from 30 to 97, I hope they do not return to that schedule (although I have heard rumblings).

 

[jis]

If they make the change to the Meteor (97) that is being rumbled about, they could concurrently push the departure of the Star a little later so that the connection between 30 and 92 becomes viable. I suppose the thing that gravitates against that is that such would lead it to run behind the Auto Train upto Selma instead of ahead of it IIRC.

 

[Palmland]

In the early 2000’s the Meteor left NYP about 7pm and as a result provided decent overnight schedule to the Carolinas with Jax arrival around noon. Now it only works well northbound. And yes, this would then allow the Star schedule to be pushed back an hour or two to better connect from the Capitol.

With the only LD route with 3 trains (4 if you include the Carolinian) I’m surprised Amtrak hasn’t tried some schedule changes before now. Although constrained by trying to avoid scheduling key stations in the overnight hours, it seems to me some of the trains run very close to one another and some markets aren’t served as effectively as they could be.

 

[Thirdrail7]

The rumblings are around 7pm-730pm.

Although constrained by trying to avoid scheduling key stations in the overnight hours, it seems to me some of the trains run very close to one another and some markets aren’t served as effectively as they could be.

This is quite often done at the behest of the host. They often want the Amtrak trains grouped in certain areas since they claim they interfere with freight operations.

 

[blueman271]

Do these rumblings include the possibility of a third NY-FL train?

 

[pennyk]

Do these rumblings include the possibility of a third NY-FL train?

The rumblings I heard was that 97 will be leaving WAS later - around 11pm, which is consistent with what Thirdrail7 stated above. I heard nothing about an additional train.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

So that makes 97 inconvenient for just about everyone--who wants to start from the Northeast in the late evening? Plus of course it basically sticks you with flexible dining, since many people will be on the train for most of the next day--no chance to have a good meal before boarding and a nice late breakfast or lunch after detraining.

Do they have a complete department at Amtrak of people thinking up ways to annoy the passengers?

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Yes, they do it’s called the Executive Management Department.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Miss Joe Boardman yet??

 

[cocojacoby]

I would think that leaving later in the day in the northeast is fine. You can leave after work and get a quicker start to your Florida vacation.

The problems I have always had with the Silvers is that they leave too early in the morning northward and arrive too late in the evening southbound at the Florida end.

We often cruised out of Miami and had to get hotels at both ends because the trains don't arrive early enough to make the usual 4 PM departure times and left too early to guarantee transfers to head back north.

The same is true for people heading to Disney or other theme parks. You lose a full day of vacation at both ends.

 

[Palmland]

The rumblings I heard was that 97 will be leaving WAS later - around 11pm, which is consistent with what Thirdrail7 stated above. I heard nothing about an additional train.

Here is the schedule from April 2001 I mentioned earlier. The later departure enables all NEC passengers to have a good dinner before boarding. I would go for an early dinner at the Oyster Bar before 97’s 7:05 NYP departure. Not sure what my choice would be in Washington but plenty of time before the 10:55 pm departure.

What’s old is new again?

 

[Barciur]

Leaving WAS at 11pm instead of current 7:25pm will get us into Miami around midnight. So even more inconvenient for this part of the trip.

 

[jiml]

Here is the schedule from April 2001 I mentioned earlier. The later departure enables all NEC passengers to have a good dinner before boarding. I would go for an early dinner at the Oyster Bar before 97’s 7:05 NYP departure. Not sure what my choice would be in Washington but plenty of time before the 10:55 pm departure.

What’s old is new again?

View attachment 16610

Ah, the Silver Palm. Only took it once. Thanks for posting that "memory lane" schedule. Many family trips on Silver Service over the years.

 

[Palmland]

Leaving WAS at 11pm instead of current 7:25pm will get us into Miami around midnight. So even more inconvenient for this part of the trip.

Sorry I didn’t post the rest of the schedule. Assuming run time stays the same, the Meteor arrived Orlando around 4pm and Miami at 9:45pm.

As pointed out above, the schedule works well for those wanted a full workday in the northeast and headed to SC, GA, and Fl as far as Orlando. Gets late in the day beyond that but it would save a vacation day.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

I generally would like this change, although I never use the SM since always get off in Tampa when I go to Florida. This would allow for a same day connection from the Cardinal and possibly the Vermonter. It also increases the gap between 91 and 97 and improves calling times at Charleston and Savannah, besides the equipment utilization reasons that have already been mentioned. I'd also like to see 92 moved to an hour or so earlier so the SS can become the primary connecting train for the CL and have non-overnight NER connections for points north of NYP.

 

[jis]

So that makes 97 inconvenient for just about everyone--who wants to start from the Northeast in the late evening? Plus of course it basically sticks you with flexible dining, since many people will be on the train for most of the next day--no chance to have a good meal before boarding and a nice late breakfast or lunch after detraining.

Do they have a complete department at Amtrak of people thinking up ways to annoy the passengers?

I recall similar sentiments were expressed when the change was made from late departure to the current departure too. Apparently no matter what happens someone will ***** and moan about it.

Apparently they have had a continuously operating department to annoy passengers for their entire existence.

 

[Anderson]

I'd like to point out some secondary context: Virginia is getting an additional train sometime in the next year or so, going into Norfolk. While I highly doubt that this would affect the NB Meteor, SB there's room for this to be the result of a cascade effect. Please do not forget that the SB Star is also "stacked" on top of a Regional (95/195) in one of the strangest scheduling decisions in that part of the world (seeing as the two trains are in the middle of a five-hour schedule "hole", and only avoid being stacked with 125 as well by dint of 125 getting parked at WAS for 50 minutes...otherwise you'd have three trains hitting RVR within an hour in the middle of a seven-hour "hole" from 1100 to 1800. By the same token, 97 chases 85 down the line (to the point that if 85 gets held up, it can foul 97).

Bear in mind that as of right now, the last train out of NYP that can make it into Virginia is 97, and 97 leaves at 1515. Pulling that backwards, it means I can't get to within a reasonable distance of home from Boston without leaving mid-morning. Likewise, there's NB connectivity to the LSL but no SB connectivity, leaving the only option there to be to use 67 (with no sleeper). Bluntly, this sucks.

A departure from NYP at 1900 would correspond to PHL about 2040 and BAL at 2200. Neither of these are awful times. WAS is getting on the late side...but to be blunt, with how badly Amtrak screwed the pooch, in all cases this allows getting a passable dinner prior to departure.

On the southern end, I would suggest that opening up more space between the Star and Meteor in SC, GA, and FL would probably help ridership as well...especially since it would do a better job of syncing daytime service at various stations: Right now, the NB train has its "daytime" cutoff at about Florence, SC (2300-ish) but the SB train has its cutoff at either Savannah or Jesup (0630-ish and 0730-ish, respectively). Likewise, the SB train provides decent times in VA (as I long experienced), but the NB train's times sort-of suck (0430, anyone?). The situation in SC and GA is the more important of the two since folks in VA heading north have other options. Folks on the A-line heading south of Savannah don't.

Anyhow...I think the culprit here is VA shaking up its schedules with the additional Norfolk train. My guess is that there are a few interests lining up for this: VA has a reason to want 91 to go "somewhere else" and probably wouldn't mind 97 doing so as well so as to cover other timing markets. Local traffic will divert to the Regionals (little or no net loss) while other riders can be scooped up in passing.

The only problem with some of the timing is access into NYP (and into the Hudson tunnels) around rush hour. Were I to redo the trains, I would probably try to get the Meteor in as close to the end of the rush hour slug as possible (1830 would probably be the ideal here, but 1900 may be the best that can be done for one reason or another). I'd probably edge the Star later (I don't know how late they can hit Raleigh without losing ridership, but if we go by the ballpark of 2300 that would give about two hours...and get 91 into the middle of a prime-hour "hole" on the Richmond line with a departure around 1700 from WAS since that slot's Regional goes to Roanoke), and it would also line it up quite nicely with 78 (as opposed to 76) and allow better times for Savannah and Jacksonville, while there's no connection to be lost to Charlotte in any event. I might also consider moving 91 earlier, but that risks cannibalizing 79's ridership if they get too close (while a later departure increases the differentiation).

For the record, I have no idea when the extra Regional VA is arranging is going to run...but I strongly suspect that it will result in a lot of trains moving around by varying degrees.

 

[striker64]

The same is true for people heading to Disney or other theme parks. You lose a full day of vacation at both ends.

I'm not so sure I agree with that. I ride between WAS and ORL several times per year, and the Meteor is a really nice ride. I can work all day, leave at night, and arrive at Disney around 1:30 the next day. It's unusual for a hotel to be ready before that anyway, and if it is I can drop my bags and head to the park. A later departure means I for sure lose that partial arrival day.

I realize the 3:30 PM departure from NYP isn't ideal, but I guess thinking from the standpoint of someone who does this often, I would be perfectly fine using a few hours of vacation for an earlier departure as well. But that's an individual case.

I don't love the northbound Meteor though. Hotel checkout is at 11 AM, so I'll have lunch and be stuck killing time waiting for the train. But then I get home at 7 AM and have the entire day. I can understand why this isn't good for a majority though.

I can see the arguments on both sides, but it seems like the southbound works out well for Florida - it hits the first stop, Jacksonville, in the morning, and the final stop, Miami, in the evening (but not too late).

 

[chrsjrcj]

The 2001 schedule was okay, because there was still the Star with earlier times going SB, and no dogleg to Tampa so it was similar time wise.

 

[the_traveler]

I always found that schedule strange!

I travel to FBG occasionally. I have a choice of departing on a regional out of NYP at 3:05 pm, or the SM at 3:15 pm - 10 minutes later!

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Now that I've thought about this more carefully, I can see the benefit of a later 97 for someone who, for example, has to work til 5:00 but would like to leave for Florida that same day/evening, especially since the Star can pick up passengers from a lot of the same stations.

But for a station like FBG, where the Meteor stops but the Star doesn't, those passsengers are stuck leaving an outside, unstaffed station in the wee hours of the morning, which seems a bit hard on them.

 

[Skyline]

I want to say it changed when the Silver Palm/Palmetto was truncated to Savannah in the Fall of 2004. I'm not sure how a later departure on 97 would benefit anything from a passenger perspective (from my view). At best, maybe a transfer to the Vermonter, but I'm not sure that's a big market.

If they do save a trainset, I'd hope to see that used to extend the Palmetto back to Miami, but that would probably require 2 additional trainsets.

If you include the AT, Meteor, and Star there are already multiple schedules from the NE to FL. Any equipment freed up should go to more worthy causes, like advancing a daily Cardinal or at least equipping the 3x/wk Cardinal better.

 

[the_traveler]

With the choice of the 3:05 regional or the 3:15 SM, guess which I picked? Especially when the SM in the old days had real food.

One time I even took a roomette from NYP to FBG - even though it arrived at 8:30 pm - just so I could have dinner. The “flexible dining” killed that, I can’t even get real food in coach (except whatever you find in the cafe). I’m more inclined to consider the regional now.

Speaking of the food situation on the SM, the last time I went to FBG I went coach. A few rows from me, a passenger asked the coach attendant what time the dining car opens! (He was going from NYP to like GA or FL.) He had no idea that he only had the cafe all the way!