Progress on service to Madison WI

[jis]

Article has some details on possible station locations that are under consideration in Madison WI

https://www.nbc15.com/2022/11/29/madison-amtrak-project-chugs-along-city-seeks-public-input/

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Ohhhh, my station has a first name, it's O S C....

While I think downtown would be a good location for a station, the First Street is probably better for train movements. I hadn't been there for ages and hadn't remembered all the grade crossings in the central parts of the city that were still active.

 

[jis]

https://www.cityofmadison.com/news/passenger-rail-station-study-kick-off-meeting

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Thanks for posting these, JIS!

As an aside, I think I remember reading somewhere that the "beautiful" (to quote Michael Feldman, radio host, broadcasting from) Monona Terrace was designed with a shell space for a station.

 

[Kramerica]

Monona Terrace (DOWNTOWN on the study map) was the planned station location for the ill-fated (and poorly marketed) 2008 Madison-Milwaukee train line. It would be a great location for people getting on or off the train in Madison. But because of the backup move required, I don't think it is the best location for through trains.

It seems most likely that the Monona Terrace will be chosen again, with the Madison Airport location being the next most likely.

Best case scenario IMO:
- Monona Terrace downtown station now
- Madison Airport station later, when they re-route the Milwaukee-MSP trains through Madison
- Madison builds good transit (BRT, streetcar, etc) between Madison Airport and downtown
- Trains that end or begin in Madison use Monona Terrace
- Through trains use Madison Airport

 

[NorthShore]

Thanks for posting these, JIS!

As an aside, I think I remember reading somewhere that the "beautiful" (to quote Michael Feldman, radio host, broadcasting from) Monona Terrace was designed with a shell space for a station.

Whad'ya Know!

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

Madison builds good transit (BRT, streetcar, etc) between Madison Airport and downtown

I used to ride Amtrak (the Illini) coming back to the University of Illinois after visiting my then-fiance in Mattoon, and would surely have ridden it to & from library school at UW-Madison earlier, had it been available. (And I probably could have gotten Mom & Dad to pick me up at the Milwaukee station, too, as they used to do when I'd ride the Empire Builder home from my undergrad college (nearest station Fargo, ND).) Good transit between downtown and a Madison Airport station would be essential for UW-Madison students wanting to ride the train. (And I expect there's a sizeable contingent of UW-Madison students from metro Milwaukee, just like how UIUC has a large metro Chicago contingent in its student body.)

 

[Steve4031]

The map in the article is extremely helpful in understanding the railroad layout in Madison. The area just east of downtown where the trains make a sharp turn to head back out from the airport would be the best IMHO. The distance from there to Monona Terrace and the Campos is not that far. There are a lot of grade crossings along the tracks to Monona Terrace. I am not sure about the other sets of tracks.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

The map in the article is extremely helpful in understanding the railroad layout in Madison. The area just east of downtown where the trains make a sharp turn to head back out from the airport would be the best IMHO. The distance from there to Monona Terrace and the Campos is not that far. There are a lot of grade crossings along the tracks to Monona Terrace. I am not sure about the other sets of tracks.

One of the articles JIS posted listed that location as the preferred location iirc.

Lots of grade crossings around campus too - I was really surprised by that when I was up there this summer.

One of them also indicated a two-line BRT system.

 

[Steve4031]

Where would through trains rejoin the route to the twin cities? I suspect if the Empire Builder was rerouted via Madison then at least Columbus and Portage would lose service. It looks like the tracks from Madison rejoin the line to the twin cities near Wiscon Dells.

 

[jis]

Where would through trains rejoin the route to the twin cities? I suspect if the Empire Builder was rerouted via Madison then at least Columbus and Portage would lose service. It looks like the tracks from Madison rejoin the line to the twin cities near Wiscon Dells.

The only way for a through train to get back to the current route would be to leave Madison by way of the Airport and rejoin the route just east of Portage. There is no other viable route to get back to the present route east of the Missouri River. This would imply a reversal of direction of running at the Monona or Campus location if either of those are used. The most direct station location would appear to be in the area highlighted in Yellow in the diagram or at the Airport.

Incidentally a quick reversal of direction en route would not be an issue if the rolling stock used is ICT style.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Where would through trains rejoin the route to the twin cities? I suspect if the Empire Builder was rerouted via Madison then at least Columbus and Portage would lose service. It looks like the tracks from Madison rejoin the line to the twin cities near Wiscon Dells.

There's a map in JIS's first link (rough map, but map none the less).

I'm wondering if eventually Chicago service via Rockford could happen?

The only way for a through train to get back to the current route would be to leave Madison by way of the Airport and rejoin the route just east of Portage. There is no other viable route to get back to the present route east of the Missouri River. This would imply a reversal of direction of running at the Monona or Campus location if either of those are used. The most direct station location would appear to be in the area highlighted in Yellow in the diagram.

Wow, that'd be a long detour to get west of the Missouri... *wink & grin*

 

[WICT106]

"Here we go again … …"

 

[Kramerica]

My recollection from 2008 is that Monona Terrace and the Airport were the two leading candidates, picked from this same group of options. I don't think things have changed much since 2008. IMO the yellow 1st Street area is too far away from the walkable Capitol / UW area to be useful for anyone that wants to walk to the station. You need some sort of other transportation to get between the station and the primary walkable area. So if that's the case, why not do the Airport and gain the benefits of transportation integration with the airport, with rental cars, and with existing parking facilities.

A reroute of the Empire Builder would leave the existing route at Watertown and rejoin just before Portage. Effectively you'd be replacing the Columbus stop with the Madison stop. I'm not sure how much extra time it would take, maybe 20 or 30 minutes? I'm guessing that would be worthwhile to pick up a city that would become the third-most populous intermediate stop on the entire Empire Builder route. And a very liberal city that should provide excellent ridership.

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

A reroute of the Empire Builder would leave the existing route at Watertown and rejoin just before Portage. Effectively you'd be replacing the Columbus stop with the Madison stop.

I suspect the current Columbus stop is to Madison as the Sturtevant stop (for the Empire Builder and Hiawatha?) is to Racine and Kenosha - doable but rather inconvenient for residents of the larger nearby cities. As a college student, I always took either buses or got Mom & Dad to drive me (Kenosha to Madison, or at least Kenosha to Milwaukee (to catch the Empire Builder to Fargo, ND), and took commuter rail (Chicago NorthWestern back in the day; it would probably be Metra now) to Chicago to catch Amtrak (Illini or Saluki) to Champaign, IL.

 

[jis]

A reroute of the Empire Builder would leave the existing route at Watertown and rejoin just before Portage. Effectively you'd be replacing the Columbus stop with the Madison stop. I'm not sure how much extra time it would take, maybe 20 or 30 minutes? I'm guessing that would be worthwhile to pick up a city that would become the third-most populous intermediate stop on the entire Empire Builder route. And a very liberal city that should provide excellent ridership.

This is the exact conclusion I came to staring at the Wisconsin rail map together with the diagram of Madison in the article referenced above. Interesting factoid that Madison would be the third most populous city on the Empire Builder route, should this come to pass.

 

[MarkInAustin]

To take my granddaughters on a college tour to Madison the rerouting of the Empire
Builder would be welcome. I still have two more years before that trip is necessary.

 

[Steve4031]

How much work would be needed to upgrade the tracks for 79 mph running on Watertown to Madison area and then on to portage?

 

[jis]

How much work would be needed to upgrade the tracks for 79 mph running on Watertown to Madison area and then on to portage?

I found the 2009 implementation plan for the Milwaukee - Madison High Speed Rail which was nixed by the then Governor. Anyway it is an interesting read. It is a largish PDF file:

Milwaukee - Madison High-Speed Intercity Passenger Rail Service - Financial Plan

It will give you ballpark idea about the costs of the Milwaukee - Madison (Airport) leg. Naturally, it does not discuss the Madison (Airport) to Portage leg since it was not part of that plan. It also did not envisage the rerouting of Twin Cities service since it did not include the Madison - Portage connection.

Anyhow, thought it would be a useful addition to this discussion nonetheless.

And here is a 2011 Slideset PDF on an Alternative Selection Report for the

Twin Cities - Milwaukee High Speed Rail Corridor Program

MnDOT wants to run at least one more train (and maybe a few more as becomes evident in the next document below) on the current Amtrak route. Wisconsin withdrew from the entire process presumably because at the end of the day all that they want is Madison - Milwaukee - Chicago, and do not give a hoot about what happens west of Madison. Oddly enough, to run one more train somehow it requires an entire EIS! The whole thing seems to be borderline lunacy or legalized foot dragging by making suitable selective use of regulations with scant justification if you ask me. But what do I know?

And finally the 2017 document:

Twin Cities-Milwaukee-Chicago Intercity Rail Passenger Service Alternative Analysis

A report which basically seems to say don't bother with new routes, just try to increase frequency and speeds on existing routes. Basically it takes 52 pages to conclude that only one additional frequency should be added with no specific speed improvements as far as I can tell. I did not know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

It should be doable to increase those speeds - the Chicago-Minneapolis routes were (once) the highest speed regular service trains of their time.

 

[Bob Dylan]

This is the exact conclusion I came to staring at the Wisconsin rail map together with the diagram of Madison in the article referenced above. Interesting factoid that Madison would be the third most populous city on the Empire Builder route, should this come to pass.

Are you not counting Seattle,Portland and Chicago as Populus Cities on the BB Route?

That leaves Milwaukee,Minneapolis,St Paul, and Madison as the Largest Cities on the Builder Route since Madison has passed Spokane in Population.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Are you not counting Seattle,Portland and Chicago as Populus Cities on the BB Route?

I think he was referring to the quote about it being the third largest intermediate stop (with MSP & MKE being the largest intermediates).

 

[jis]

I think he was referring to the quote about it being the third largest intermediate stop (with MSP & MKE being the largest intermediates).

Yes.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Yes.

Wow, you were quick with that reply!

 

[jis]

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of posts focused on Chicago - Twin Cities second service with no mention of Madison have been moved to the pre-existing thread on the subject of Chicago Twin Cities second service:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/chicago-twin-cities-second-daily-service.80803/
Please post about Chicago - Twin Cities service on that thread and leave this thread for primarily discussing service to Madison, and even Madison to Twin Cities service.

Thank you for you understanding, cooperation and participation.