Proposals for Restored Gulf Coast Service

[WoodyinNYC]

. . . nobody is proposing a restoration of pre-Katrina service

First things first, get the NOL-ORL . . . running again.

One possible solution . . .

If UP / BNSF would allow speed up of Sunset east of SAS could passengers connect to CNO Florida.

I'm still getting used to this forum's quoting and editing system.

Please note that you can use the delete key to zero in on the points you are replying to in previous posts. In fact, you are encouraged to cut copied text, so readers don't have to scroll down so much.

 

[MikefromCrete]

It doesn't surprise me CSX is slowing the progress of the restoration of City of New Orleans extension. You would think they would remember that Amtrak never discontinued the route east of New Orleans.

Who said CSX is impeding the progress of this plan? As far we know, negotiations with the railroad are proceeding at a good pace. The main problem is the service isn't funded.

 

[jis]

Who said CSX is impeding the progress of this plan? As far we know, negotiations with the railroad are proceeding at a good pace.

And your source is who?

 

[MikefromCrete]

Who said CSX is impeding the progress of this plan? As far we know, negotiations with the railroad are proceeding at a good pace.

And your source is who?

I don't have a source. The previous poster said CSX was dragging out the process. I've seen no previous reports of this. I just pointed out that we don't know how negotiations are going. Seems to me the biggest delays are coming from the state governments involved. Besides, with the new secretary of transportation being a fellow of the notoriously anti-rail Heritage Foundation, all this talk of LD or even SD expansion is probably moot.

 

[jis]

You just had to read a few posts back to see a short discussion of the issue. I have actually heard of certain well ahem ... obstacles in the negotiation for trackage agreement ... that have come up. My source is a certain legislative assistant of Senator Wicker originally. I agree it is hearsay. But at least one with a putative source attached

 

[Gulfwind2]

Who said CSX is impeding the progress of this plan? As far we know, negotiations with the railroad are proceeding at a good pace.

And your source is who?

I don't have a source. The previous poster said CSX was dragging out the process. I've seen no previous reports of this. I just pointed out that we don't know how negotiations are going. Seems to me the biggest delays are coming from the state governments involved. Besides, with the new secretary of transportation being a fellow of the notoriously anti-rail Heritage Foundation, all this talk of LD or even SD expansion is probably moot.

Hi Mike,

My source (whom I will not name as a courtesy to said person and their affiliates) personally reviewed the letter sent to the US Department of Transportation by the CSX Passenger Relations Department which cites an absolutely monumental amount (worth more money than is appropriated each year by Congress to all facets of passenger rail combined) of infrastructure upgrades which they claim will be needed before Amtrak returns to the Gulf Coast. Of course anyone with experience in railroad operations would know that almost none of the cited infrastructure will actually be necessary for passenger trains to run regularly on CSX trackage between Orlando and New Orleans.

I will be a bit bold here and say that CSX concocted an intentionally dishonest review of the situation at hand in order to call attention to the STB 80% Passenger OTP ruling which they (through the auspices of AAR) are working once again to repeal. The political strategy from CSX is to hold the Gulf Coast Amtrak negotiations hostage, so to speak, until the STB Ruling ends up being bent to their liking. It is a deceptive strategy but it is hardly any different from the usual set of playbook maneuvers that Class I's will use in order to protest government regulatory actions which their shareholders disapprove of.

 

[CCC1007]

Who said CSX is impeding the progress of this plan? As far we know, negotiations with the railroad are proceeding at a good pace.

And your source is who?

I don't have a source. The previous poster said CSX was dragging out the process. I've seen no previous reports of this. I just pointed out that we don't know how negotiations are going. Seems to me the biggest delays are coming from the state governments involved. Besides, with the new secretary of transportation being a fellow of the notoriously anti-rail Heritage Foundation, all this talk of LD or even SD expansion is probably moot.

Hi Mike,

My source (whom I will not name as a courtesy to said person and their affiliates) personally reviewed the letter sent to the US Department of Transportation by the CSX Passenger Relations Department which cites an absolutely monumental amount (worth more money than is appropriated each year by Congress to all facets of passenger rail combined) of infrastructure upgrades which they claim will be needed before Amtrak returns to the Gulf Coast. Of course anyone with experience in railroad operations would know that almost none of the cited infrastructure will actually be necessary for passenger trains to run regularly on CSX trackage between Orlando and New Orleans.

I will be a bit bold here and say that CSX concocted an intentionally dishonest review of the situation at hand in order to call attention to the STB 80% Passenger OTP ruling which they (through the auspices of AAR) are working once again to repeal. The political strategy from CSX is to hold the Gulf Coast Amtrak negotiations hostage, so to speak, until the STB Ruling ends up being bent to their liking. It is a deceptive strategy but it is hardly any different from the usual set of playbook maneuvers that Class I's will use in order to protest government regulatory actions which their shareholders disapprove of.

Sounds like the same thing UP did with the sunset route.

 

[bretton88]

Who said CSX is impeding the progress of this plan? As far we know, negotiations with the railroad are proceeding at a good pace.

And your source is who?

I don't have a source. The previous poster said CSX was dragging out the process. I've seen no previous reports of this. I just pointed out that we don't know how negotiations are going. Seems to me the biggest delays are coming from the state governments involved. Besides, with the new secretary of transportation being a fellow of the notoriously anti-rail Heritage Foundation, all this talk of LD or even SD expansion is probably moot.

Hi Mike,

My source (whom I will not name as a courtesy to said person and their affiliates) personally reviewed the letter sent to the US Department of Transportation by the CSX Passenger Relations Department which cites an absolutely monumental amount (worth more money than is appropriated each year by Congress to all facets of passenger rail combined) of infrastructure upgrades which they claim will be needed before Amtrak returns to the Gulf Coast. Of course anyone with experience in railroad operations would know that almost none of the cited infrastructure will actually be necessary for passenger trains to run regularly on CSX trackage between Orlando and New Orleans.

I will be a bit bold here and say that CSX concocted an intentionally dishonest review of the situation at hand in order to call attention to the STB 80% Passenger OTP ruling which they (through the auspices of AAR) are working once again to repeal. The political strategy from CSX is to hold the Gulf Coast Amtrak negotiations hostage, so to speak, until the STB Ruling ends up being bent to their liking. It is a deceptive strategy but it is hardly any different from the usual set of playbook maneuvers that Class I's will use in order to protest government regulatory actions which their shareholders disapprove of.

Sounds like the same thing UP did with the sunset route.

The difference is UP isn't really committed to that number, they put that out there when Amtrak made a blunder and pissed UP off. This is just CSX saying that they are not interested.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The deal between UP and Amtrak for the Sunset Ltd. was bungled because of the arrogance of an ex-Amtrak Suit.

Now that the time limit on renogiating has been reached,its time to once again consider the Daily Texas Eagle between CHI and LAX with the stub train from SAS-NOL-SAS as part of the deal.

 

[neroden]

CSX is a notoriously mismanaged railroad, just on the freight side, even apart from their illegal and dishonest actions when it comes to passenger trains. Don't imagine that the shareholders like the incompetent way it's been run; there have been multiple activist-shareholder attempts to change the management in recent memory.

They can be strongarmed by a combination of state Governors and US Senators -- the CSX weasels know that they're lying weasels, so if push comes to shove, they'll capitulate on their dishonest and overpriced demands, the way they capitulated in Massachusetts (twice) and in New York. (They'll be capitulating in NY again one of these days.) However, I'm not sure the state governments and US Senators in the Gulf Coast area are unified enough and presenting a strong enough threat to make CSX capitulate. In Massachusetts, IIRC, it got to the point of open threats from the governor and the US Senators from Massachusetts to change federal railroad law. (These were not empty threats; although it was not guaranteed that the Senators could do that, it was certainly possible.) At that point CSX backed down and started making reasonable requests.

CSX is testing the resolve of the government officials in the Gulf Coast region, seeing if the coalition is solid or not.

 

[amtrakpass]

I think these kind of issues show there needs to be a change in the law. There needs to be some kind of neutral way to decide how much it actually costs to add some passenger trains with the regulatory authority to encforce their decision. Now you have a situation where freight carriers can basically make demands for huge spending out of thin air. Of course the situation could be reversed and you could have a passenger carrier demanding unreasonable things also. So that is why there should be independance to how it is decided. But the situation now is basically pretend railroading in my book. Any mainline in the United States should be able to add a few daily trains without a lot of investment as is. When needed, some new investment may be good for everyone. But this current situation is a recipe for inaction or wasteful spending.

 

[jis]

If what CSX is demanding comes anywhere near the liquidated cost of the property then just for the heck of it the states should make a counter proposal for an eminent domain acquisition of the entire property involved together with a subsidiary trackage rights to CSX agreement and watch CSX's reaction. Heck they might even agree like they have been crying door to door to try to sell off their properties to any takers in FL. Too bad that the states involved would not have the intestinal fortitude for such.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Well. it looks like CSX is being is usual obstinate self. This is a railroad that takes seven days to run six days worth of freight trains. CSX is the worst managed railroad in the U.S. I would hope the Gulf Coast politicians have the resolve to stand up to this outfit.

 

[jis]

Status update from Senator Nelson. No mention of CSX issue is probably a good thing.

http://www.chipleypaper.com/news/20161213/officials-briefed-on-amtraks-return-to-panhandle

Good to see Nelson moving ahead bypassing the quagmire of Tallahassee, and trying to bring together all the involved Counties to bring pressure on all involved.

 

[MARC Rider]

Ultimately it will be a competition between how much revenue accrues from Sunset to Coast Starlight Connection in LAX vs. Sunset to other trains connection at NOL on the one hand for rescheduling the Sunset, and on the other hand the revenue from beyond New York passengers on the Crescent vs. those transferring from the Crescent to other trains at NOL, and the potential loss of Atlanta ridership due to oh-dark thirty time at Atlanta that is the consequence of rescheduling the Crescent to make the connections in NOL. My bet is that connections at NOL will be sacrificed.

Hey, how about a through sleeper and coach from the Crescent that gets hooked on to the Sunset? Wasn't that done once upon a time? Sure, the cars would sit overnight in New Orleans, but you'd have a place to crash after enjoying the French Quarter and not have to pay for a hotel room.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Hey, how about a through sleeper and coach from the Crescent that gets hooked on to the Sunset? Wasn't that done once upon a time? Sure, the cars would sit overnight in New Orleans, but you'd have a place to crash after enjoying the French Quarter and not have to pay for a hotel room.

The last schedule I could find with that option advertised was way back in 1977 (the National Limited and SWC also had the same option in KCY):

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19770622&item=0036

 

[west point]

Hey, how about a through sleeper and coach from the Crescent that gets hooked on to the Sunset? Wasn't that done once upon a time? Sure, the cars would sit overnight in New Orleans, but you'd have a place to crash after enjoying the French Quarter and not have to pay for a hotel room.

That was done with the SOU Crescent with steam line cars. Once the Sunset went to HEP the thru sleeper was discontinued.

Very unlikely as there isn't a transition sleeper on sunset for a V-1 or V-2 sleeper. Other problem there will not be enough V-1&2 sleepers available. Now if sometime in future more single level sleepers were built ? ? ?

 

[Palmetto]

There was a through sleeper only. It was great when I used it--a long, long time ago. What was NOT great was the next morning when there was knocking on the door for a ticket check. In those days, the Southern Crescent was still running and the Southern Railway conductor had to do a ticket check upon leaving New Orleans.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Actually, MARC Rider said:

Hey, how about a through sleeper and coach from the Crescent that gets hooked on to the Sunset?

Very unlikely as there isn't a transition sleeper on sunset for a V-1 or V-2 sleeper. Other problem there will not be enough V-1&2 sleepers available. Now if sometime in future more single level sleepers were built ? ? ?

In a few years, most of the Sunset/Eagle should go daily, using Superliners. Then the plan is for a daily Sunset Shuttle, running New Orleans-Houston-San Antonio, using (rehabbed) Horizon cars. That could be worth doing without a transition car; cross platform transfer at SAS for everybody, even sleeper passengers.

Of course, we'd need more Viewliner sleepers to do that. But we need more Viewliner sleepers anyway.

By the time the last of the current order comes off the line, we should know if Amtrak as we know it will survive.

 

[striker64]

http://m.wlox.com/wlox/db_345521/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=yAtXcNRw

Sounds like 4 coastal towns are getting money to start repairing/upgrading their train stations, so that seems like a great first step. I can't speak to the others, but the station in Bay St Louis was renovated a while ago and has been in use as sort of a tourism center, so it needs very little work.

 

[me_little_me]

http://m.wlox.com/wlox/db_345521/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=yAtXcNRw

Sounds like 4 coastal towns are getting money to start repairing/upgrading their train stations, so that seems like a great first step. I can't speak to the others, but the station in Bay St Louis was renovated a while ago and has been in use as sort of a tourism center, so it needs very little work.

Means little. The state of NC was going to run a train to Asheville back in 2005 and the local towns had their stations restored. No train. No hint of a train.

 

[xyzzy]

There was never a firm schedule for an Asheville train, just a basic outline adopted in 2001 in response to grassroots activity in the western part of the state. NCDOT did not have the necessary equipment or operational funding from the General Assembly. There was no agreement with Norfolk Southern who wanted $135 million at the time for CTC and track improvements. Stations were renovated in Marion, Morganton, and Old Fort as a holding measure, with interim usage allowed. Stations in Stateville and Hickory were separately renovated.

Now the Asheville-Salisbury line is all 25 mph, creating another hurdle. And people in Wilmington want a train, too. I don't see anything happening for quite some time.

 

[DSS&A]

Hi,

The FRA announcement states that 1 communities will share a $2 million grant to make station facility improvements. This is a good first step. Naturally, additional funding and agreements will need to be secured for track,trains and operations.

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/FRA-allocates-funds-for-Amtrak-Gulf-Coast-service--50433

 

[neroden]

This is an odd mishmash of grants.

http://www.southernrailcommission.org/fra-station-grants

-- Three grants to Alabama are for stations on the Crescent! This is good news, of course.

Anniston gets $139,500 to rebuild the parking lot and extend the platform. (Extended platform presumably means they don't have to stop the train twice, speeding up the Crescent a little.)

Birmingham gets $150,000 for vague purposes ("enhancement and construction of new multimodal station"). I'd love to know what part of the station this is being applied to. They already have full funding for a new multimodal station, which is under construction, *except* that it feeds back into the old passenger tunnel, elevator, and decrepit platform. Here's hoping this is doing something to improve the platform.

Tuscaloosa gets $314,457 for a brand new station.

-- Mobile gets planning funding: a master plan and architectural design for a new station. No construction

-- All three grants to Louisiana are for station design and planning (no construction) for stations on the *Baton Rouge to New Orleans* route! I hope something comes of this but that one's been in limbo as long as I can remember.

-- Mississipi is the one which is serious about Gulf Coast Service Restoration. All four suspended Sunset stations are being fixed up.

Bay St. Louis gets $55,000 for ADA compliance and general improvements

Biloxi gets $252,000 for a new platform and a walkway to the city bus station

Gulfport gete $190,000 for ADA compliance (new platform) and general improvements

Pascagoula gets $659,943 for restoration of the historic station building

So we have three Crescent projects which should be constructed immediately, and the Gulf Coast stations in Mississippi should be ADA-compliant and ready for service, and the rest of the funding is for planning. Given this, I'm a little suspicious that we might see a stub run from New Orleans out to Pascagoula or Mobile long before we see full service restoration along the Gulf Coast; the Mississippi Gulf Coast communities seem really eager.

The PDF gives the total project budgets as well as the size of the grants. I haven't looked to see which projects are now fully funded, which would require figuring out what *other* sources of funding were used for each project. I'm strongly guessing that most of the construction projects are now fully funded, since they're mostly about 50% and the cities have probably provided the other half.

OK, looking further, Tuscaloosa isn't fully funded. They have $1.5 million local and $314457 federal, but the total is 2.95 million so they have a 1.1 million dollar gap

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/news/20160419/city-seeks-money-for-new-train-station

Anniston only requires a $20,000 local match so it's presumably funded, though apparently agreement with NS is still necessary and the plan seems a little screwy (platform extension on the other side of West Fourth Street?).

Birmingham seems to be an add-on to an existing project, so although I can't tell for sure, I really expect that it's fully funded.

It appears that the four Gulf Coast cities in Mississippi have already guaranteed their local funding matches. The local governments are talking about the projects as done deals.

http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/34088043/115m-coming-to-4-coast-cities-to-prepare-for-passenger-rail-service

 

[WoodyinNYC]

The FRA announcement states that 11 communities will share a $2 million grant to make station facility improvements.

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/FRA-allocates-funds-for-Amtrak-Gulf-Coast-service--50433

To me the news is that almost $400,000 is going to Baton Rouge (and Gonzales and St John Parish, which lie between Baton Rouge and New Orleans).

There's been beaucoup studies about adding passenger trains or light rail to this busy industrialized stretch of the Mississippi. In favor, obviously, Greater Baton Rouge with roughly 600,000 citizens is only 80 miles from New Orleans, with its 1,250,000 metro area. Working against it, the usual: no money, no equipment, current rail system crowded with freights, Louisiana's corrupt and disfunctional politics.

Baton Rouge would nicely extend the proposed New Orleans-Biloxi-Pascagoula-Mobile corridor service. Looks like the FRA could be trying to help smooth the way by dropping a few pennies along the future route.