Raton Pass Route vs. Transcon

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Guest_Tom_*

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Which route would be faster for the Southwest Chief? It seems like the Transcon Route would be much faster since all the BNSF trains use it from LA to Chicago. If the Chief used the southern route, a bus connection could serve Albuqurque from Belen. Could this work?
 
One probably wouldn't even need a bus connection between Belen and ABQ, as I believe that they can get the train up to ABQ without much hassle from the Transcon. They did it two years ago during a period where heavy snow closed the passes in Raton.

However, such a detour would cut out one of the more scenic parts of the trip and probably only save a few hours in running time overall. And that also assumes that BNSF actually wants Amtrak on the transcon at that point.
 
The Raton track (from ABQ to Trinidad via Lamy, Las Vegas, and Raton) is now owned by state of New Mexico. BNSF wants to get out of that area because it is no longer needed because of more efficient Transcon. Rest of Colorado and Kansas is owned by BNSF.

Some days there will be commuter trains between ABQ and Denver. It could be 30 to whenever years you think it may happened.

As for Belen and ABQ track, there is a wye in trackyard area as it was mentioned on trip report.
 
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A time savings of ONLY a few hours? About how many hours are we talking about here? If the Transcon route saves much more time, it could be wise to route it on that route, even at the expense of less scenery.
 
A time savings of ONLY a few hours? About how many hours are we talking about here? If the Transcon route saves much more time, it could be wise to route it on that route, even at the expense of less scenery.
The so called "transcon" is totally plugged with freight traffic and would be a poor choice for the SWC. If you have ever been out there you are virtually never out of site of a headlight. It's basically nonstop action day and night. Back when the AT&SF ran all the passenger trains a section of the Grand Canyon and the San Francisco Chief both ran via the transcon via Amarillo and Belen bypassing Albuquerque. Timing for the SFC between Newton and Gallup was about 15 hours. The Chief, Super Chief and El Capitan via Raton took almost the same amount of time.....15 hours. So there would be no saving of time to reroute the SWC. And......if you took the SWC up to Albuquerque from Belen, something the San Francisco Chief did not do, it would actually lengthen the timing.
 
Frankly it's not even really the fact that the Transcon is too busy that it would slow down Amtrak because of freight interferance. The simple fact is that the route isn't any faster and is in fact slightly longer than the current route. I hope that George Harris won't mind my requoting his old post.

For General Information:
In the Nov. 1956 Official Guide, the distance Kansas City to Albuquerque was shown as 933.0 miles via Topeka, Amarillo, Belen and the San Francisco Chief took 17 hours 20 minutes each way. The Passenger Route through La Junta was shown as 902.0 miles KC to Albuq., again via Topeka, 15 miles less via the Ottawa cutoff, and the Super Chief took 15 hours 30 minutes westbound and 15 hours 10 minutes, bypassing Topeka.
And none of what has been discussed so far deals with the issue and costs of building/refurbishing the train stations on the Transcon.
 
It would be nice to have faster service whenever possible, but faster doesn't outweigh abandoning communities. Would we want to add another mid/large city to the list that our national passenger railroad system does not serve? (Not to rant too much about this, but doesn't it already reflect very poorly on us that we have no direct service to some of our biggest and most important cities...Phoenix, Las Vegas, San Francisco, etc.)...

BTW, I couldn't find a map of exactly which line in the BNSF system is the Transcon. Does it...continue straight past Belen to Vaughn, then go northeast towards Chicago from there?

One issue about the ABQ-Raton route I wonder about is what will happen to the Lamy stop when the Rail Runner is up and running. As many of you are probably aware, the new line to Santa Fe branches off the former BNSF tracks at Waldo Canyon, directly south of Santa Fe, then continues north in the I-25 median. There are going to be 7-8 trains a day initially and service will start in December.

Will Amtrak keep Lamy, or just close it and tell passengers to connect to Santa Fe via Albuquerque? If you are going from LA-Chicago, it would make sense to get off at the Alvarado Transit Center/Amtrak complex in ABQ and just catch the commuter train to Santa Fe. Coming from Chicago-LA, it wouldn't be as good...you would have to travel 80-90 minutes from Lamy to ABQ, then transfer and go another 80-90 minutes back up to Santa Fe via Rail Runner. Also, initially, there will be no Sunday Rail Runner service.

I don't know what the numbers are like of people boarding/disembarking at Lamy, but I would imagine it is not too large. Santa Fe is not a large city, although it does have a lot of tourists visit it. If the numbers were cut in half (assuming everyone coming from LA will take the Rail Runner), would Amtrak keep Lamy open?
 
But if the Transcon route is slower, why does BNSF route all of its trains on that route?
 
But if the Transcon route is slower, why does BNSF route all of its trains on that route?
Elevation may be one reason. It is not as great an altitude to climb going that way.

I have copied the 1968 ATSF national map and California - Chicago ATSF passenger schedules if anyone is interested. They are rather big files, too big to put in this thread. If any one would want them to look at, PM me and I'll email them to you. The map also has altitude info on it for the entire routes.
 
But if the Transcon route is slower, why does BNSF route all of its trains on that route?
Simply because the grades over Raton approach 3% and thus require helpers for most all freight trains going over the pass. In other words it's cheaper, much cheaper to route freight via the low gradient route through Amarillo and Belen. Passenger trains are able to tackle the Raton grade because they are lighter and don't require helpers. At times BNSF would try and route some trains over the pass, particularly when the transcon was blocked with a derailment or when they had major maintenance scheduled, but now they route nothing over Raton. Rerouting requires crews that know the route, etc. and they just don't have any stationed along that route anymore.
 
I think the biggest and most important reason to reroute the SWC on the transcon is that is would then serve Amarillo! You know how many people I have talked to who would love to use Amtrak, but probably never will since the closest station is 4 hours away?

I have personally talked to the owner of of our old Sante Fe passenger depot and he is very open to the idea of using it for Amtrak. Back when there was talk of the Caprock Express, they were planning on using it.
 
In addition to the altitude issue, I believe that the other main reason that the freight goes via the transcon is that the transcon is all two track railroad and in many places three or even four track RR. By contrast most of the route used by Amtrak is single and double track only.

So if BNSF were to start sending freights over Raton, in addition to the added expense of switching helper units on and off, you'd have many more meets in sidings slowing down things considerably.
 
I think the biggest and most important reason to reroute the SWC on the transcon is that is would then serve Amarillo! You know how many people I have talked to who would love to use Amtrak, but probably never will since the closest station is 4 hours away?
I have personally talked to the owner of of our old Sante Fe passenger depot and he is very open to the idea of using it for Amtrak. Back when there was talk of the Caprock Express, they were planning on using it.
But you would serve Amarilo at the expense of (not) serving KC! I think there are less people in the Amarilo area than there are in the KC area!
 
I think the biggest and most important reason to reroute the SWC on the transcon is that is would then serve Amarillo! You know how many people I have talked to who would love to use Amtrak, but probably never will since the closest station is 4 hours away?
I have personally talked to the owner of of our old Sante Fe passenger depot and he is very open to the idea of using it for Amtrak. Back when there was talk of the Caprock Express, they were planning on using it.
But you would serve Amarilo at the expense of (not) serving KC! I think there are less people in the Amarilo area than there are in the KC area!
I am pretty sure that a reroute through Amarillo would still include Kansas City.
 
Frm a quick look at BNSF's maps, it looks like the stops that would be lost...

Lamy, NM

Las Vegas, NM

Raton, NM

Trinidad, CO

La Junta, CO

Lamar, CO

Garden City, KS

Dodge City, KS

Hutchinson, KS

Looks like it could be routed to hit Newton, KS and join back in on the regular route after that.
 
Frankly it's not even really the fact that the Transcon is too busy that it would slow down Amtrak because of freight interferance. The simple fact is that the route isn't any faster and is in fact slightly longer than the current route. I hope that George Harris won't mind my requoting his old post.
For General Information:
In the Nov. 1956 Official Guide, the distance Kansas City to Albuquerque was shown as 933.0 miles via Topeka, Amarillo, Belen and the San Francisco Chief took 17 hours 20 minutes each way. The Passenger Route through La Junta was shown as 902.0 miles KC to Albuq., again via Topeka, 15 miles less via the Ottawa cutoff, and the Super Chief took 15 hours 30 minutes westbound and 15 hours 10 minutes, bypassing Topeka.
And none of what has been discussed so far deals with the issue and costs of building/refurbishing the train stations on the Transcon.
The times I listed above came from the July 1956 Official Guide. I used Newton, KS because it is the last city that all the trains stopped at and Gallup, NM is the first city west of Belen and Albuquerque that all the trains stopped at. The times between those two cities of around 15hrs is more or less identical between trains within a few minutes. Amtrak by contrast now takes 16hrs42min westbound and 17hrs10min eastbound to go from Newton to Gallup. If you want to serve Amarillo then bring back the old Texas Zephyr Ft Worth/Dallas to Denver route via the BNSF and connect with the SWC at Trinidad or bring back the San Francisco Chief which made the run from Chicago to Oakland in 47 1/2 hours vs the current CZ which takes 54 hours or why not both. The SFC also served Bakersfield and the San Joaquin Valley.
 
I think the biggest and most important reason to reroute the SWC on the transcon is that is would then serve Amarillo! You know how many people I have talked to who would love to use Amtrak, but probably never will since the closest station is 4 hours away?
I have personally talked to the owner of of our old Sante Fe passenger depot and he is very open to the idea of using it for Amtrak. Back when there was talk of the Caprock Express, they were planning on using it.
But you would serve Amarilo at the expense of (not) serving KC! I think there are less people in the Amarilo area than there are in the KC area!
I am pretty sure that a reroute through Amarillo would still include Kansas City.
Correct, KC would not be lost due to a reroute through Amarillo.
 
This discussion got me to thinking about populaions along each route. Here is what I came up with with the current route(populations are approximate from city-data.com)...

Lamy, NM (Santa Fe) - 62,000

Las Vegas, NM - 14,000

Raton, NM - 7,000

Trinidad, CO - 9,000

La Junta, CO - 7,000

Lamar, CO - 8,000

Garden City, KS - 27,000

Dodge City, KS - 26,000

Hutchinson, KS - 41,000

-------------------------

Total: 201,000

If it rerouted on the transon, here are some possible stops and their populations...

Clovis, NM - 33,000

Hereford, TX - 14,000

Canyon, TX - 13,000

Amarillo, Tx - 185,000

Pampa, TX - 17,000

Woodward, OK - 12,000

Wichita, KS - 350,000

----------------------

Total - 624,000

That number only includes a few cities/towns along the way. Could be some good ones I missed.
 
As for Lamy Amtrak stop and the RailRunner, I don't think that it will discontinue that station stop due to several reasons: 1) long distance trains are not on-time schedule, so what happpened if Amtrak is really late or is on the weekend and RailRunner is nowhere on that time schedule?, 2) excellent parking lots, esp. for out of towners, 3) Lamy is a "busy" stop- railfanners, artists, history buffs, and passengers. Usually I see about 10-25 passengers boarding when I'm there. These are my opinions.
 
As for Lamy Amtrak stop and the RailRunner, I don't think that it will discontinue that station stop due to several reasons: 1) long distance trains are not on-time schedule, so what happpened if Amtrak is really late or is on the weekend and RailRunner is nowhere on that time schedule?, 2) excellent parking lots, esp. for out of towners, 3) Lamy is a "busy" stop- railfanners, artists, history buffs, and passengers. Usually I see about 10-25 passengers boarding when I'm there. These are my opinions.
When I spoke with the Lamy station agent in October 2007, she was of the opinion that the SWC would be rerouted and Lamy no longer served as soon as the Railrunner expansion was initiated, because New Mexico will own all the tracks all the way to the Colorado border (BNSF forced NM to buy everything, not just ABQ-LMY, because BNSF doesn't use those tracks and this was an easy way for them to get rid of the need to maintain them almost exclusively for Amtrak); and New Mexico has no interest in the tracks from LMY to the Colorado border and will probably just let them rust rather than maintain them for Amtrak.

Granted, that was her opinion and nothing more. But she was quite certain she would be out of a job or forced to move in a few years when the SWC moved to the transcon route.
 
When I spoke with the Lamy station agent in October 2007, she was of the opinion that the SWC would be rerouted and Lamy no longer served as soon as the Railrunner expansion was initiated, because New Mexico will own all the tracks all the way to the Colorado border (BNSF forced NM to buy everything, not just ABQ-LMY, because BNSF doesn't use those tracks and this was an easy way for them to get rid of the need to maintain them almost exclusively for Amtrak); and New Mexico has no interest in the tracks from LMY to the Colorado border and will probably just let them rust rather than maintain them for Amtrak.
Granted, that was her opinion and nothing more. But she was quite certain she would be out of a job or forced to move in a few years when the SWC moved to the transcon route.
I'd hardly say that NM was forced to buy the tracks all the way to the Colorado border, since they got the tracks for a song and a dance. I don't recall the actual purchase price for that track, but it was so low that one could say that BNSF basically gave it away.

As for Amtrak, NM has no choice but to continue to maintain the tracks for Amtrak at least until the current contract expires. I'm not sure when that might be, but the conditions of the sale to NM would have included the transference of Amtrak's right to operate on those tracks.
 
Granted, New Mexico might have come upon the trackage for a song and a dance but what insurance is there that they will not turn it into a 10 mph nightmare?
 
Click here for an interesting video from Olympian Amanda Beard's take

Granted, New Mexico might have come upon the trackage for a song and a dance but what insurance is there that they will not turn it into a 10 mph nightmare?
The contract with Amtrak will ensure that. Amtrak actually came very close to clubbing UP over the head with the contract two years ago and was prepared to take things to the FRA and get Justice involved. That prompted UP to start working harder to fix the slow orders that were plaguing the CZ and CS. on the new laser suits.
 
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