Refund for Amtrak train accident involving suicide

[the_traveler]

[Moderator's Note]

Some of the comments are getting off topic. Only IIRC only a few mentioned the agony suffered by the train's crew! I myself feel more for the crew than being "compensated" for the "inconvenience" you suffered.

As stated, how was this Amtrak's fault at all? :huh:

Please remember who was really "inconvenienced"!

 

[MikefromCrete]

I've been holding off on commenting on this since I'm really offended by the OP.

Let's see, you're riding on a train when an unfortunate person decides to end their life in front of a train.

The train's engineer had to witness a person standing or stepping in front of his train which he no ability to stop in time.

The conductor and assistant conductor have to get off the train and examine the aftermath

First responders have to remove the body or what's left of the body.

Police officers have to determine what happened.

Medical examiners have to study the body;

Someone has to tell the victim's family.

The victim's family remember this for the rest of their lives.

You're sitting in an air conditioned train drinking bottles of water;

And YOU want some kind of compensation!

Look up the word jerk in the dictionary and you'll find your picture.

I've been on two trains that people committed suicide in front of. One was back in the 80's when a person jumped from a bridge in front of the old Broadway Limited in Indiana. The other was a few years ago when a young woman stood in front of a Metra Electric train traveling at full speed at around 35th Street I knew when I heard the air being dumped and the emergency brakes applied what had happened. Both times we were stopped for more than two hours while the emergency responders did their job. I was just glad to get home to my family and friends on both occasions none the worse for wear.

Be glad you're alive and well and only mildly inconvenienced.

 

[trainfan969]

I remember my experience on the Surfliner when the following happened: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/35394-3-killed-by-amtrak-train-in-california/page__p__262994__hl__commerce__fromsearch__1#entry262994 We were about 10-15 minutes from LA.

We were stuck there for 5 hours while the authorities did their investigation. About 2 hours in, the conductor did authorize the cafe attendant to distribute snacks, (snack packs) and drinks for the passengers. There is not much that could have done other than to make the best out of an unfortunate situation (sleep). Many passengers were extremely inconvenienced but it was beyond our control on when we could leave.

One thing I have learned riding the rails is that things will happen beyond our control which results in a delay. When something out of the order it's up to you to the get yourself together and make the best of things.

You may ask for a refund (can't tell how many times I've heard that when the train is late for any given reason) but in the end, the train did get you from point A to point B.

 

[trainfan969]

I've been holding off on commenting on this since I'm really offended by the OP.

Let's see, you're riding on a train when an unfortunate person decides to end their life in front of a train.

The train's engineer had to witness a person standing or stepping in front of his train which he no ability to stop in time.

The conductor and assistant conductor have to get off the train and examine the aftermath

First responders have to remove the body or what's left of the body.

Police officers have to determine what happened.

Medical examiners have to study the body;

Someone has to tell the victim's family.

The victim's family remember this for the rest of their lives.

You're sitting in an air conditioned train drinking bottles of water;

And YOU want some kind of compensation!

Look up the word jerk in the dictionary and you'll find your picture.

I've been on two trains that people committed suicide in front of. One was back in the 80's when a person jumped from a bridge in front of the old Broadway Limited in Indiana. The other was a few years ago when a young woman stood in front of a Metra Electric train traveling at full speed at around 35th Street I knew when I heard the air being dumped and the emergency brakes applied what had happened. Both times we were stopped for more than two hours while the emergency responders did their job. I was just glad to get home to my family and friends on both occasions none the worse for wear.

Be glad you're alive and well and only mildly inconvenienced.

All these events are spot on about why it takes the train so long to clear an accident. Also the police can come aboard and ask EACH passenger if they saw anything related to the incident (I know what you are thinking, but its their job to do so).

 

[Devil's Advocate]

When I first joined AU most struck/killed pedestrian threads were full of cheers to see Darwinism in action, which I honestly found pretty shocking. Over time I eventually became desensitized to it but today it's all about who can show the most compassion for everyone involved. Well, everyone except for the passengers I suppose. I wonder what changed between then and now to create this reversal? I do feel bad for the loss of life and the impact this may have on those who remain. On the other hand, I'm not personally offended by the OP's question. If they want to call Amtrak and ask for a voucher or something then that's their prerogative. Presumably Amtrak will decline, but if they do decide to hand over a full refund then maybe they know something about this incident that we don't. Or maybe they're just really loose with the vouchers. I wouldn't know because despite all the lousy service I've received over the years I've yet to ask for one.

 

[user 1215]

OK - Major insensitivity coming up here. You've been warned.

I grew up in Japan. I think most of y'all know that by now. I rode the local trains to the American School on the West side of town from East of Tokyo. Spent 1.5 hours each way, nearly half of that on the Chuo line from Tokyo to Musashisakae station.

Though I have never been on a train where there was a jumper, it was still very common. In fact the Chuo line was the most common. It was so common that JNR (then later JR) and other rail companies actually have a clean up plan and crew in place and can resume schedule within an hour. Then the company sends the cleanup bill to the family.

I'm very sorry that people choose to end their lives. There is so much to live for, yet there are those who can't seem to find the answers. Suicides are often committed out of lonliness or a feeling of worthlessness. It is often the final attempt at attention to commit suicide in a way that brings attention to the individual, even though they are no longer around to enjoy that attention. It can also be a way of causing a final hurt to another person in a way that they can't retaliate.

Regardless of the cause, the effect is still the same. It causes trauma in someone else's life who didn't deserve or ask for that burden.

I can be very sympathetic towards the loss of life in an accident. A suicide isn't an accident. It's an on purpose. They wanted to lose their life, so it's really not our place to feel bad for them.

I believe that it is a matter of policy for Amtrak to issue vouchers for delays over 2 hours regardless of cause. The money is either forgotten or used on future Amtrak travel. Then, Amtrak has the right to go after the estate of the victim to recoup their costs.

 

[PRR 60]

I have absolutely no problem with anyone asking Amtrak for compensation for a delay, no matter what the reason. Why should the customer be the one to assess the validity of the claim? Amtrak is under no contractual obligation to provide compensation for service issues but, as a policy, they often do. So, regardless of the reason for a five hour delay, the OP should call, ask, and let Amtrak make the decision. If Amtrak feels it is in their best interest to provide a voucher of some value, fine. If they decide not to, fine as well. Ultimately, that is Amtrak's call, not the customer's, and certainly now ours. From the customer's perspective: nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'm very sorry that people choose to end their lives. There is so much to live for, yet there are those who can't seem to find the answers.

That would seem to depend on the situation. As someone who reads the news on a regular basis it has become clear to me that some lives are probably just not worth living. Young boys being forced to commit atrocities against rival gangs and innocent bystanders alike. Little girls being doused with highly corrosive acid for the sin of attending a school. Disabled people being abused by their caregivers. Minorities randomly attacked for the crime of having a different skin color or sexual orientation. Wives beaten into submission by psychotic husbands. And on and on. Sometimes we can undo the harm, but our system isn't perfect and even the best system we could come up with is going to fail thousands of people in a nation as large as ours. Not everyone can bounce back from a terrible past. Who am I to say that people who are subjected to horrible acts and fall through the cracks should not be able to end their own suffering? Additionally, I believe that if we did what we could to lessen the stigmatization and criminality of assisted suicide there would be more options for people that didn't include jumping in front of the next train they cross paths with.

Regardless of the cause, the effect is still the same. It causes trauma in someone else's life who didn't deserve or ask for that burden. I can be very sympathetic towards the loss of life in an accident. A suicide isn't an accident. It's an on purpose. They wanted to lose their life, so it's really not our place to feel bad for them.

What if the parent of a self-inflicted suicide decides to commit their own suicide as a result? Do you suddenly stop feeling bad for them? Just curious where you draw the line and why.

 

[user 1215]

I'm very sorry that people choose to end their lives. There is so much to live for, yet there are those who can't seem to find the answers.

That would seem to depend on the situation. As someone who reads the news on a regular basis it has become clear to me that some lives are probably just not worth living. Young boys being forced to commit atrocities against rival gangs and innocent bystanders alike. Little girls being doused with highly corrosive acid for the sin of attending a school. Disabled people being abused by their caregivers. Minorities randomly attacked for the crime of having a different skin color or sexual orientation. Wives beaten into submission by psychotic husbands. And on and on. Sometimes we can undo the harm, but our system isn't perfect and even the best system we could come up with is going to fail thousands of people in a nation as large as ours. Not everyone can bounce back from a terrible past. Who am I to say that people who are subjected to horrible acts and fall through the cracks should not be able to end their own suffering? Additionally, I believe that if we did what we could to lessen the stigmatization and criminality of assisted suicide there would be more options for people that didn't include jumping in front of the next train they cross paths with.

Regardless of the cause, the effect is still the same. It causes trauma in someone else's life who didn't deserve or ask for that burden. I can be very sympathetic towards the loss of life in an accident. A suicide isn't an accident. It's an on purpose. They wanted to lose their life, so it's really not our place to feel bad for them.

What if the parent of a self-inflicted suicide decides to commit their own suicide as a result? Do you suddenly stop feeling bad for them? Just curious where you draw the line and why.

I suppose that line is that I don't particularly feel sorry for the decision that they have made, but I truly feel sorry for the circumstances that led to them believing that was the only way out. So, even in your ideas, I suppose I would feel more sorry for someone who couldn't escape gang violence, but more tragically I feel sorry for the situation that led there.

 

[the_traveler]

If while driving to work in the morning there is an accident and that results in a backup of traffic, and a 3 hour delay - do you get on your computer and write to the state demanding compensation because you were "inconvenienced" by I-70 or I-25 being closed or traffic restricted to 1 lane?

Is it the fault of the state, or the wrong way driver or speeder or drunk driver?

So why is a suicide the "fault" of Amtrak?

I would be more thankful that I got home alive instead of being "inconvenienced" for a few hours! And I would think more of the crew and first responders that have to carry that image with them for the next 30-50 years!

There was an episode of CSI last night where there was a murder in a casino. While the body was lying on the casino floor, less then 10 feet away, people were still playing the slot machines! I bet (if in real life) they would sue the casino because they were "inconvenienced"!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If while driving to work in the morning there is an accident and that results in a backup of traffic, and a 3 hour delay - do you get on your computer and write to the state demanding compensation because you were "inconvenienced" by I-70 or I-25 being closed or traffic restricted to 1 lane?

I don't think anyone is talking about "demanding" anything, but what I really want to know is how on earth do you come up with these marvelously incongruent questions?

 

[RampWidget]

Is there any way that the process of releasing the train could be sped up a bit? Which folks participate in the determination that the train can leave the scene and which of those groups is the usual hold-up?

The responding law enforcement agency has the final say as to when the train is released. Usually that part of the process that takes the longest is waiting for the coroner to arrive and complete their investigation.

In addition, some jurisdictions initially treat train vs. trespasser as a crime scene until the agency rules out criminal activity as a cause of death, which greatly adds to the time involved.

 

[fairviewroad]

To the OP, if you're still around despite all this abuse being hurled at you: A slight note of clarification about your incident description...a suicide is by

definition not an "accident." That said...

In situations like this, there is one thing that Amtrak truly has control over: the comfort of its passengers. Disruptions like this, be they suicides or

non-suicidal pedestrian trespassers, or grade-crossing incursions, happen on a NOT-insignificant basis. So Amtrak crews need to be prepared

to care for customers. Yes, obligations to law enforcement/emergency responders come first, but after that, there is a trainload of paying passengers.

So, train crews need to provide appropriate and timely communication. And they need to make sure that a reasonable level of comfort is maintained. The

reason for the delay is irrelevant. So in terms of "compensation" it's not a matter of "my train was 5 hours late" but a matter of "my train was five hours late

and the crew just sat around kvetching in the diner" (for example...we all know THAT would never happen).

I'm just saying that Amtrak does not get a free pass just because some poor soul decided to take his/her life. I don't know enough about the OP's situation

to make a judgement call, of course.

 

[the_traveler]

If while driving to work in the morning there is an accident and that results in a backup of traffic, and a 3 hour delay - do you get on your computer and write to the state demanding compensation because you were "inconvenienced" by I-70 or I-25 being closed or traffic restricted to 1 lane?

I don't think anyone is talking about "demanding" anything, but what I really want to know is how on earth do you come up with these marvelously incongruent questions?

OK, how about if I replace "demanding" with "asking for"?

And that is what the OP was asking on post #1 of this thread - if there was any way to be compensated by Amtrak for the "inconvenience?! And it's as much Amtrak's "fault" as it is the State's "fault"!

 

[Donctor]

Some fellow passengers had mentioned receiving refunds for previous train rides involving accidents. What do you think?

They didn't know what they were talking about.

They weren't familiar with their own experiences?

Just because it doesn't happen frequently, doesn't mean it hasn't ever happened.

 

[user 1215]

When I was in Orlando last Fall, I actually paid to move my trip from the later Star to the earlier Meteor. The Meteor was delayed due to a dead body found near the tracks in Orlando and the Police didn't know who hit it or how it got there. As this put the Meteor to within an hour of the Star, I called Amtrak to see about getting the difference in cost of the ticket refunded. They sent me a voucher for $100. No regret for me asking. No question of my virtues by Customer Service. Just a nice token to encourage me to ride Amtrak again. And I very well make a trip that I didn't plan on which will be only slightly defrayed by the voucher I was given. And if I don't, the Voucher is never cashed. Win win for everyone.

 

[haolerider]

It is just me?

I find it offensive that someone would try to profit off someone else's death. Particularly since the engineer, and anyone else in the train crew that checked the train or walked back to see the condition of the person hit will likely have nightmares about this for the rest of their lives.

No George, it is not just you. I find it equally offensive that someone would immediately think of a full refund in a situation such as this!

 

[AlanB]

I believe that it is a matter of policy for Amtrak to issue vouchers for delays over 2 hours regardless of cause. The money is either forgotten or used on future Amtrak travel. Then, Amtrak has the right to go after the estate of the victim to recoup their costs.

Not any more. That was a failed policy of the late Amtrak President George Warrington. Amtrak was handing out money like it was candy and David Gunn quickly ended that policy.

 

[Ryan]

Indeed. Amtrak passing out money for delays due to things beyond their control seems like a terrible idea and a waste of money.

 

[Steel City Don]

Personal opinion here and nothing to do with Amtrak policy....

How is it any fault of Amtrak's that someone decided to commit suicide?

Are they supposed to be responsible for the actions of everyone in the world?

I don't understand why you would even consider asking for a refund.

If one is offered, that's another story, but I consider the actions of an individual like that, someone who is not an employee or even a passenger of Amtrak to be an act of God.

As far as I'm concerned, If you got to your destination, the contract was fulfilled.

Like I said, my personal opinion.

I agree, not Amtrak's fault. My g/f and I and our 2 yr old was on a CL 2 years ago because a freight train in front of us hit a car and it killed the dad and son. Sat there 3 hours. Never ever had we thought to ask for a discount or voucher. That's obscured.

 

[sechs]

Some fellow passengers had mentioned receiving refunds for previous train rides involving accidents. What do you think?

They didn't know what they were talking about.

They weren't familiar with their own experiences?

Just because it doesn't happen frequently, doesn't mean it hasn't ever happened.

What they were talking about were probably not fatal accidents.

 

[sechs]

I believe that it is a matter of policy for Amtrak to issue vouchers for delays over 2 hours regardless of cause. The money is either forgotten or used on future Amtrak travel. Then, Amtrak has the right to go after the estate of the victim to recoup their costs.

Not any more. That was a failed policy of the late Amtrak President George Warrington. Amtrak was handing out money like it was candy and David Gunn quickly ended that policy.

I miss being able to have every other paid trip free, but it's bad deal for Amtrak.

 

[The Commissioner]

Anyone who rides Amtrak long distance trains with the expectation that their time is worth something to Amtrak is being unrealistic. Ride the train only if it doesn't make any difference to you how long it takes or when you arrive. Asking Amtrak to compensate you for 'lost' time is comparable to suing Pizza Hut for indigestion.

 

[EB_OBS]

Asking Amtrak to compensate you for 'lost' time is comparable to suing Pizza Hut for indigestion.

That was pretty funny.

I'll be the fist to admit that Amtrak can shoot itself in the foot on a regular basis.

Whether it be poor communication, rude employees, inadequate maintenance and dirty restrooms and/or accommodations, however, On Time Performance is one area where most delays are totally and completely beyond Amtrak's control.

 

[jmbgeg]

It is just me?

I find it offensive that someone would try to profit off someone else's death. Particularly since the engineer, and anyone else in the train crew that checked the train or walked back to see the condition of the person hit will likely have nightmares about this for the rest of their lives.

Nope, not just you.

I will tackle this from another angle. I think that saying the OP was trying to "profit" from the incident is off base. Profit is not the right term. The OP suffered a five hour delay in arrival and may have incurred additional costs as a result. If the OP had missed a guaranteed connection, Amtrak would likely have applied the standard policy and provided accomodations, etc.

This is a matter for Customer Relations to resolve by a phone call from the OP. This was totally outside Amtrak's control, so it likely does not warrant a refund. Perhaps a small inconvenience voucher is appropriate. That is not a profit for the OP.