My son in law got a roomette paper ticket for the 11th of this month. He was able to get the ticket refunded when their plans changed. My daughter had been added to spouse's roomette on a paper ticket. She went to LAUS for a refund and was told to mail the ticket to refunds department. Was she given correct information?
Refund on paper ticket
- Thread starter Dan O
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Sounds like she has an Open Ticket. Perhaps they are handled differently.
neroden
Engineer
Yes, paper tickets get mailed in for refunds.
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Ah, yes! Another example of Amtrak technology living in the 19th century.
- Paper Tickets for Open Sleeper travel
- Mailing in tickets to get a refund
I'm surprised Amtrak doesn't make the conductor punch those tickets to keep in the spirit of the last century. Or require the holder to send it in via Pony Express!
neroden
Engineer
The haphazard IT department has still failed to implement online ticketing for open sleeper tickets. :sigh:
GAT
GAT
What about people who don't have online capability? Won't they need paper tickets?
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
These are special paper tickets that carry specific value rather than those that can be reprinted. That said, the vast majority of passengers have no need or awareness of open sleepers so this is a pretty niche issue to worry about.
GAT
GAT
Got it! Thanks for the clarification.
Well, they have been consistently reducing the number of services requiring paper value tickets. When they first implemented etickets they were only good for Amtrak trains.
Paper tickets were required for:
-Almost all itineraries involving Thruway buses
- International Maple Leaf tickets because no eticket interlining with VIA
- USA Rail Passes
- Open sleepers.
Of that list, now the only thing left that still requires value tickets is open sleeper tickets, which is a very, very small niche. I don't know of any other ticket type that requires a value ticket, although I will allow that I don't know that for sure, and think it likely that some smaller bus companies can't/don't interline etickets for their Thruway codeshares.
Value tickets are like currency, you lose that dollar, that dollar is gone. Eticket boarding passes can be reprinted at will and presented either an electronic device or a hardcopy paper pdf printout. Or both. Boarding passes carry no value.
Paper tickets were required for:
-Almost all itineraries involving Thruway buses
- International Maple Leaf tickets because no eticket interlining with VIA
- USA Rail Passes
- Open sleepers.
Of that list, now the only thing left that still requires value tickets is open sleeper tickets, which is a very, very small niche. I don't know of any other ticket type that requires a value ticket, although I will allow that I don't know that for sure, and think it likely that some smaller bus companies can't/don't interline etickets for their Thruway codeshares.
Value tickets are like currency, you lose that dollar, that dollar is gone. Eticket boarding passes can be reprinted at will and presented either an electronic device or a hardcopy paper pdf printout. Or both. Boarding passes carry no value.
RebelRider
Service Attendant
There is such a tiny, tiny number of paper tickets still in use. I'd imagine it is a small fraction of a small fraction of a single percent. We're surely at the point where the cost to program these edge cases into electronic documents far surpasses the cost of handling the paper tickets. When paper tickets do show up, they are still supposed to be lifted and canceled with the conductor's punch.
Besides the open section sleepers, the only other value bearing paper tickets I'm aware of are for connections between PHL and Atlantic City on NJ Transit. Those still require paper tickets because Transit can't handle anything electronic.
I remember years ago traveling from Philadelphia to Princeton on Amtrak and getting a hand written paper ticket for the shuttle from Princeton Junction to Princeton.
How does an open sleeper ticket work? You buy a ticket for a particular sleeper journey but undated, then just show up and hope there is space?
How does an open sleeper ticket work? You buy a ticket for a particular sleeper journey but undated, then just show up and hope there is space?
Nope, you book a Room ( Bedroom or Roomette) for yourself paying the Rail Fare and Room Charge.
If you later want to have someone join you on the trip, they have to Call Amtrak with the Rez # and are issued a Paper Ticket ("Open Sleeper" which means no Room #) after paying the Rail Fare for themselves.( the amount depends on the current Bucket for that train).
Depending on when they do this, the Manifest that the Train Crew has May or May Not have your name, so let the Car Attendant know someone will be joining you when you board if they're not boarding with you.( you can board from a different Station )
The rail fare for sleepers does not vary, it does not move through buckets. It is the fixed at the second "value" coach bucket between the points of travel.
For sleepers, it is the accommodation charge, and only the accommodation charge, that is yield managed.
Otherwise the explanation is correct, and the open sleeper ticket is always the sleeper rail fare. Alhough I would emphasize that a very common use of open sleeper ticket is for someone who is traveling between different points than the sleeper reservation holder. The few times I've used open sleeper tickets are for that, like a friend joining me between Seattle and Portland on a trip to LA. Open sleeper tickets are are real PITA.
For sleepers, it is the accommodation charge, and only the accommodation charge, that is yield managed.
Otherwise the explanation is correct, and the open sleeper ticket is always the sleeper rail fare. Alhough I would emphasize that a very common use of open sleeper ticket is for someone who is traveling between different points than the sleeper reservation holder. The few times I've used open sleeper tickets are for that, like a friend joining me between Seattle and Portland on a trip to LA. Open sleeper tickets are are real PITA.
ehbowen
Engineer
See here for a somewhat irreverent look at my experience buying an Open Sleeper ticket for a friend of mine in 2017:
Open Sleeper...Grrrr!
Open Sleeper...Grrrr!
Just read it and that squares up with my experiences with open sleeper tickets. They are a pain and usually a bit of a battle to get one issued.
I'll add one experience to that. When my friend rode with me to Portland, the train had gotten quite late right out of the gate due to signal issues through the Kent Valley. We were flagging by all the signals between roughly Kent and Puyallyup. The trip was a joyride, she was turning around and taking a Cascades back to Seattle and had never taken Amtrak before. Well, by Tacoma it was looking like the return was going to be uncomfortably tight at least (it was actually missed), so I called to have the reservation switched to the NB Starlight. Since it was a paper value ticket, we had to get the ticket physically reissued at Portland. Both trains were there at the same time, and the time it took to get the new ticket, both of us almost missed our trains. She was the very last to board the northbound Starlight.
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That's not the primary reason and we have never used it that way. We use it to meet up with others (usually family) boarding at a later station and traveling with us.
neroden
Engineer
I do think open sleeper tickets need to be implemented electronically because they're ***useful*** and would be purchased more widely if more people were aware of them, which would happen if they could be bought through the website.
The purpose is so that my friend can get on at NYC, I can get on in Syracuse, and we can share the sleeper compartment to Chicago.
It takes quite a bit of IT work to implement but it should be doable and I think it would be worthwhile.
...but for situations like this involving third-party agencies it would not be worth programming it into the electronic system.
RebelRider
Service Attendant
I'd say the vast majority of people who are traveling together and boarding from different stations are just going to book one reservation NYP-CHI and tell the conductor the second person is boarding at SYR. What is the incentive for Amtrak to cut into that extra revenue? There is no difficulty selling sleeper space as is. The IT effort required is probably multiple orders of magnitude bigger than any of us would think, otherwise open sections would already be eTicket eligible. What other projects are you willing to delay/sacrifice?
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First, there is an incentive for Amtrak - customer service and the convenience of passengers. Please don't forget that. It could be a big selling point for Amtrak to have that feature.
Second, we have no idea what that effort would cost because we don't know how it could be best implemented. Possibly by adding a feature into the conductor's app. Possibly that feature could also signal the conductor as to linked reservations. It might only be a matter of having the info for both features (or additional ones) come up when a ticket is scanned. No need to tell conductor that you need redcap service at destination because it pops up when scanned? No need to tell conductor you have hearing problems or visual ones or ??? I'd sure like it if the conductor would know I was hard of hearing and when he/she scanned my ticket, he would know to look directly at me and tell me what he/she has to say slowly and clearly and, when masks are no longer needed, allowing me to read his/her lips instead of his mumbling his/her words. The same for the SLA's list - then they might point instead of just talk to tell me to go up and to the right, not turn left.
This paper thing is not a single, rarely used feature. Once Amtrak bites the bullet, it can make life easier for the conductor if he/she needs additional info and make traveling easier for handicapped, special needs, and others with linked reservations and open tickets. I t might even result in better service.
And, lastly, putting a guilt trip on others by saying Amtrak has to delay projects to add this feature doesn't fly. This is not something new. This is an old problem. It's another issue that could be made better if only Amtrak cared more about customer relations and employee working ease.
neroden
Engineer
Not actually technically allowed by Amtrak, which is why that's not a great option. If you don't go to a lot of effort, the second passenger might be marked no-show. The second problem with it is that it doesn't allow for the two customers to pay separately, which can be important to people.
I'll tell you how I'd implement it. I'd implement it by having a scheme for two passengers to link their separately-paid reservations, which has other advantages, particularly for passengers who want to travel in a group.
Certainly a meaningful amount of IT work, but it's something which needs to happen. Passenger #1 would put in an authorization on their reservation for Passenger #2 to "tag on", and then it would show up as an option when Passenger #2 went to book a ticket. If it makes it easier to implement, it could be made available only for AGR members with AGR numbers (since joining AGR is free, this doesn't actually exclude anyone).
Amtrak simply needs to hire more IT people to Get Stuff Done; we all know it; it's not a matter of trading off one IT project against another, it's a matter of keeping Amtrak IT at proper, competent staffing levels. This doesn't have to be priority 1, but it's an old problem and it needs to be on the list.
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Hahaha you think Amtrak IT is that competent?
Well, if two people are on the reservation, and the ticket is scanned in at/near the origin station, both passengers are checked in. Even if the other person is not physically there. There would be have to be conversation with the conductor and picking up the second person, and bear in mind that there might be a different conductor by the downline station. That is certainly the case in NYP and Syracuse, as the operating crew changes at Albany.
I don't think it is the world's greatest idea, but you could do it as long as someone on the reservation was onboard at the reservation origin.
Amtrak IT's dubious competence aside, I doubt they'll address the issue any time soon even if they were superstars (which they clearly are not). It is simply a matter of priority. The market for this is small, and the prioritization would be very low if it even made the list. The fact that Amtrak IT is not world's finest IT shop jut makes it worse, there are ample fires that they have to continuously put out, making low priority enhancements almost impossible to get to.
I think it comes down to an analysis of cost of change vs. cost of not making a change. If this is indeed the sole remaining reason for issuing cash value paper tickets, then the cost of continuing to support the process needs to be determined, and compared to the cost of making open sleeper tickets digital.
Cost/benefit analysis is what would determine priority at any IT shop. The main thing about paper tickets from a cost perspective is probably the hardware and the cardstock. The cost of keeping existing, working software in service is pretty close to zero unless there were a major system overhaul (which is needed) and the decision point there would be the incremental cost of retrofitting that functionality versus building functionality similar to what @neroden proposed into a new system (which does not appear to be on the horizon). Maintenance cost of the specialized ticket printing hardware infrastructure is likely what would drive any decision to raise the priority of fixing it, absent a major system overhaul. That may not be a trivial case, since if everything were shifted to etickets, what printing that would still be needed, such as printing out forgotten copies of boarding passes, could be accomplished by generic printers, not specialized hardware (though ticket printers are not an uncommon item, airlines still use them, and they are pretty basic machines).
As long as the cost of maintaining the ticket printing infrastructure is sufficiently low, this enhancement probably is a case of the "juice isn't worth the squeeze" as we used to say.
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There's also the cost of training personnel to use the existing system, and the cost of handling mailed-in refunds. There may be other operational costs, such as handling of the paper tickets by train crew and whatever happens to them after they've been handed off by the train crew.
