Refund on paper ticket

[zephyr17]

There's also the cost of training personnel to use the existing system, and the cost of handling mailed-in refunds. There may be other operational costs, such as handling of the paper tickets by train crew and whatever happens to them after they've been handed off by the train crew.

Yes, but sometimes the costs external to IT aren't always factored in to such decisions, particularly "soft costs" like employee time, unless it were brought up by senior management, particularly the CFO, outside IT. It doesn't always make sense, and isn't limited to Amtrak IT by a long shot. Costs of handling by train crews, for example, including pouching and getting the tickets to the accounting office, aren't incurred by the IT cost center and won't necessarily be looked at by IT unless it were part of a bigger issue. It depends on whose ox (cost center) is being gored. If the costs are great enough for the Finance Department to notice it, in a way that looks directly attributable to paper value tickets, and they made an issue of it, it might happen. One of the big issues is making the "soft costs" attributable. If you could say on average train crews spend 15 minutes per trip handling paper tickets, you might make a case. If they are spending 3 minutes every 10th trip on average, it would be hard to even quantify and even the time and cost to quantify it might not be seen as worthwhile. Until then, the directly attributable hard costs would be the main determining factor, and those are pretty much the hardware infrastructure.

Been there, done that.

 

[me_little_me]

Yes, but sometimes the costs external to IT aren't always factored in to such decisions, particularly "soft costs" like employee time, unless it were brought up by senior management, particularly the CFO, outside IT. It doesn't always make sense, and isn't limited to Amtrak IT by a long shot. Costs of handling by train crews, for example, including pouching and getting the tickets to the accounting office, aren't incurred by the IT cost center and won't necessarily be looked at by IT unless it were part of a bigger issue. It depends on whose ox (cost center) is being gored. If the costs are great enough for the Finance Department to notice it, in a way that looks directly attributable to paper value tickets, and they made an issue of it, it might happen. One of the big issues is making the "soft costs" attributable. If you could say on average train crews spend 15 minutes per trip handling paper tickets, you might make a case. If they are spending 3 minutes every 10th trip on average, it would be hard to even quantify and even the time and cost to quantify it might not be seen as worthwhile. Until then, the directly attributable hard costs would be the main determining factor, and those are pretty much the hardware infrastructure.

Been there, done that.

And, as I mentioned, the "cost" of the loss of customer satisfaction and Amtrak's reputation for living in the 19th century.

 

[neroden]

Cost/benefit analysis is what would determine priority at any IT shop. The main thing about paper tickets from a cost perspective is probably the hardware and the cardstock.

No. The main thing from a cost perspective is that they have to keep the refund office and the ticket-issuing office operating. Th at involves a bunch of specialized employees who are certified in certain accounting procedures for handling money and cash value tickets -- certified a bit like bank tellers. They're EXPENSIVE. It's their salaries, and the cash-handling office, and the auditing which is required related to it, which is the most expensive part -- not the hardware and cardstock.

This office used to be quite large -- they had an entire center somewhere in Texas with hundreds of employees handling cash-value tickets, if I remember rightly -- and it's quite small now that there are only a few paper tickets, but it's definitely more expensive to keep it operating forever than hiring a couple of IT people to do a one-time project to put the last few paper-ticket sales online.

 

[neroden]

Yes, but sometimes the costs external to IT aren't always factored in to such decisions, particularly "soft costs" like employee time, unless it were brought up by senior management, particularly the CFO, outside IT.

You are correct that siloed thinking and stupidity often rule the day. That really doesn't change the conclusion. Costs of handling the tickets at the accounting office are real and substantial, regardless of whether they're allocated to the IT department or not -- and were the actual motivating factor for introducing e-ticketing in the first place at Amtrak, so at some point top management was paying attention.

 

[zephyr17]

You are correct that siloed thinking and stupidity often rule the day. That really doesn't change the conclusion. Costs of handling the tickets at the accounting office are real and substantial, regardless of whether they're allocated to the IT department or not -- and were the actual motivating factor for introducing e-ticketing in the first place at Amtrak, so at some point top management was paying attention.

If a whole accounting office is dedicated to handling paper tickets, that is a cost directly attributable to the existence of paper value tickets and can go far to justifying the expense of remediating the issue. If the costs were solely soft costs of a percentage of employee time in a variety of different areas, the case becomes a lot more difficult to build. It does tend to support my argument that the justification will have to come from outside IT, most likely from Finance, though.

As to customer satisfaction and being in the 19th century, they have reduced the issuance of paper value tickets to a very, very small niche that affects a diminishingly small number of Amtrak customers. It looks larger to us because we are a self selected group that is aware of open sleeper and may have occasion to use it. If you are looking to customer satisfaction to be the driving force to spend the money on remediating it at this point, with the overwhelming majority of tickets now electronic, you are looking at the wrong place, it will be cost justification that does it. Changing the USA Rail Pass to etickets remediated the last area that affected a truly significant percentage of Amtrak customers. And I'll tell you right now, as dim as Amtrak management often is, I bet they are aware that anyone who goes to the trouble of getting an open sleeper ticket is pretty much a die hard Amtrak customer.

Amtrak itself and Amtrak IT have a lot more pressing and bigger issues than the tiny remaining percentage of value tickets that affect very few customers. As far IT is concerned, proper showing of connections after a schedule change without waiting weeks, correctly showing baggage service availability/non availability, getting bid up to work on complex itineraries and Guest Rewards trips, ability to combine points and cash for trips, seat reservations beyond NEC business class, and even getting PDF schedules back all have much greater customer satisfaction impact than the ability to add a passenger to a sleeper in Syracuse without a paper ticket.

 

[jebr]

Knowing Amtrak, I could see them getting rid of open sleeper tickets entirely rather than integrating them into the e-ticketing system. (Same with NJ Transit tickets, though at least those would be able to be easily replaced. Is there any advantage to booking those with Amtrak, anyways?)

 

[Barb Stout]

Changing the USA Rail Pass to etickets remediated the last area that affected a truly significant percentage of Amtrak customers. And I'll tell you right now, as dim as Amtrak management often is, I bet they are aware that anyone who goes to the trouble of getting an open sleeper ticket is pretty much a die hard Amtrak customer.

When did Amtrak convert the USA Rail Passes to e-tickets? The first time I took Amtrak in 2017, I used a Rail Pass and did in fact get a bunch of cardstock quality tickets/boarding passes. The Amtrak personnel did emphasize to not lose them.

 

[SubwayNut]

I have one unusual experience where I would have purchased an open sleeper ticket but didn't because a friend offered us their expiring companion coupon. Me and my partner were going round-trip from South Bend to Fullerton in a Roomette on a Cash ticket with a companion coupon making her train fare free. (I have a lot more AGR points already so it made sense to have the Roomettes points post to my account) I redeemed some of my AGR points for her disabled father who was joining us in an Accessible Bedroom (at the roomette points price, I know I lost the disabled discount but booking it this way made the most sense, so we would have the Rommette together.

I rode out with them on the full journey from SBN-CHI-FUL, but flew to Albuquerque before joining them on the Southwest Chief. In ABQ I got on the train as soon as it arrived to my partner stepping off to meet me and the train attendant familiar with my unique situation. I found the conductor later and he scanned my ticket to mark me on the train and on seemed well. In Chicago I went to check my suitcase for the short trip home to South Bend (didn't try and check any of my luggage in ABQ this seemed way too confusing at the ticket office) and there was a moment of panic when the agent said it looked like my ticket had been canceled, but they were competent enough to reinstate it and I didn't face any issues on our short one-stop journey home on the Capitol Limited.

This is a unique situation and I definitely would have done an open sleeper ticket had we not been using a Companion Coupon, it would have some money too (although my partner would have gotten the AGR points)!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Amtrak itself and Amtrak IT have a lot more pressing and bigger issues than the tiny remaining percentage of value tickets that affect very few customers. As far IT is concerned, proper showing of connections after a schedule change without waiting weeks, correctly showing baggage service availability/non availability, getting bid up to work on complex itineraries and Guest Rewards trips, ability to combine points and cash for trips, seat reservations beyond NEC business class, and even getting PDF schedules back all have much greater customer satisfaction impact than the ability to add a passenger to a sleeper in Syracuse without a paper ticket.

Agreed. Out of all the things I want Amtrak to change the digitization of open sleeper tickets is so low on the list I cannot even give it a real number. Sometimes I think folks forget to pick their battles so to speak.

 

[zephyr17]

When did Amtrak convert the USA Rail Passes to e-tickets? The first time I took Amtrak in 2017, I used a Rail Pass and did in fact get a bunch of cardstock quality tickets/boarding passes. The Amtrak personnel did emphasize to not lose them.

When they brought them back after having suspended sales of them for the pandemic. 2021.

 

[trimetbusfan]

Ah, yes! Another example of Amtrak technology living in the 19th century.

• Paper Tickets for Open Sleeper travel
• Mailing in tickets to get a refund

I can't imagine the percentage of the ticket costs is wasted on paper tickets and manually handling mailed-in tickets for refund. Moreover, I fell sorry for the IT person who comes to work for Amtrak fresh out of college and who sees how backward they are.

I'm surprised Amtrak doesn't make the conductor punch those tickets to keep in the spirit of the last century. Or require the holder to send it in via Pony Express!

I just traveled on an open-sleeper space ticket last week. Within the last yr (the last time I used an open-space ticket) Amtrak has switched these over to e-Tickets! I am genuinely a little surprised Amtrak IT got around to it.

I think you still have to call in or go to the station to book it, but that makes sense considering how different this type of ticket is.

 

[zephyr17]

I just traveled on an open-sleeper space ticket last week. Within the last yr (the last time I used an open-space ticket) Amtrak has switched these over to e-Tickets! I am genuinely a little surprised Amtrak IT got around to it.

I think you still have to call in or go to the station to book it, but that makes sense considering how different this type of ticket is.

Wow, I am actually pretty surprised they got around to it. It makes me wonder, though, are there any other remaining ticket types that have to be issued on paper value tickets? Even most bus codeshares are electronically ticketable these days. I wonder if there are some oddball interline tickets that still require it, like maybe the Victoria Clipper?