Viewliner
Engineer
Over the years we've had several proposals for routes such as the Skyline Connection, so I'd like to know of any proposed Amtrak routes, but were dropped before they started, that should've been.
Routes That Should've Been
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Superliner Diner
Conductor
Well, still very fresh in my mind is the October, 1999 debacle over the New England States. News of this train was somehow leaked from somebody at Amtrak to an internet railfan like us, and of course the concept blossomed quickly. The principle was one that had been discussed for ages --- namely splitting the New York and Boston sections of the Lake Shore Limited into two separate trains.
The idea was that the New York section would retain the LSL route and schedule, while the Boston section would run on a very different schedule (departure from Boston around midnight, departure from Chicago in early afternoon), and take a different route, all-CSX. It would have deviated from the current LSL route at Cleveland, gone down what someday is supposed to be the 3-C Corridor (Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati) to a point west of Akron, and then west on the same CSX mainline via Fostoria (used by the Three Rivers) to Chicago. This would have provided daytime service to Fostoria, and the first Cleveland-Fostoria service.
Just as quickly as the New England States (numbered Trains 38 eastbound and 39 westbound) appeared on the map, it disappeared. Its operation was attached to the securing of an express contract between Chicago, Buffalo, and Springfield (this route would have bypassed Toledo). CSX felt threatened by the competition, and eventually took the contract for themselves. Hence, no new passenger train. But the "first runs" each had one sleeper room booked already before the train was declared stillborn. I had plans to ride part of the train on what should have been its first weekend, by taking a circle trip via Boston and Albany with the Massachusetts portion overnight.
The idea was that the New York section would retain the LSL route and schedule, while the Boston section would run on a very different schedule (departure from Boston around midnight, departure from Chicago in early afternoon), and take a different route, all-CSX. It would have deviated from the current LSL route at Cleveland, gone down what someday is supposed to be the 3-C Corridor (Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati) to a point west of Akron, and then west on the same CSX mainline via Fostoria (used by the Three Rivers) to Chicago. This would have provided daytime service to Fostoria, and the first Cleveland-Fostoria service.
Just as quickly as the New England States (numbered Trains 38 eastbound and 39 westbound) appeared on the map, it disappeared. Its operation was attached to the securing of an express contract between Chicago, Buffalo, and Springfield (this route would have bypassed Toledo). CSX felt threatened by the competition, and eventually took the contract for themselves. Hence, no new passenger train. But the "first runs" each had one sleeper room booked already before the train was declared stillborn. I had plans to ride part of the train on what should have been its first weekend, by taking a circle trip via Boston and Albany with the Massachusetts portion overnight.
Amfleet
Engineer
New trains like the "Sky Line Connection" and the "New England States" were only going to be for Amtrak's Mail and Express and were only going to have a couple of coaches, a cafe, and a sleeper plus 20 cars of freight. I rather see the come back of the "Desert Wind", "Pioneer", and "Broadway Limited" (replacing the "Three Rivers" and making that train a New York - Pittsburgh daylight train).
The reason I like the Boston section of the LSL is because it gets a Diner once in Alabany and just recently the BOS section now has a full lounge.
The reason I like the Boston section of the LSL is because it gets a Diner once in Alabany and just recently the BOS section now has a full lounge.
Viewliner
Engineer
I'll check to see if the NY Section of the LSL has a Food Service car today.
Amfleet
Engineer
It does, it still has a Diner.
Viewliner
Engineer
I know, but does it function as a lounge from NYP-Albany?Amfleet said:
Amfleet
Engineer
No, I don't beleive so, except 49 might serve lunch upon NYC departure. Remember New York bound passengers only have a 2 hour ride from ALB to NYC where as BOS passengers have a 4 hour ride. Putting the Lounge on the BOS section also eliminates the need for another cafe, crew, and food to stock it.
Viewliner
Engineer
Where'd you find those GIF's?
Superliner Diner
Conductor
The Boston section of the LSL used to carry a regular Amfleet I cafe car off the Northeast Corridor, before the lounge car was moved to that section. I thought perhaps the Amfleet I cafe would have ended up on the New York section, but as I hear, it did not.Amfleet said:
Amfleet
Engineer
I beleive it was done for cost cutting and time saving measure.
battalion51
Engineer
My favorite no show is FEC service. We were supposed to have it in 94, and I'm still waitin. Florida was willing to pay, Gunn wasn't willing to play.
Amfleet
Engineer
It is not that he won't pay it is just one there is NO money and two there is no equipment. If I remember when he first took office he stated he would not add any routes until he felt the company was stable.
battalion51
Engineer
This much is true. We were hoping down here that he'd just run it LSL style and not require any more equipment than we already had splitting trains at JAX, or try sending the Star up the FEC and let the Meteor handle Orlando's.
Amfleet
Engineer
That could work, but remember another locomotive would be required plus a sceond crew. Are you thinking the other section would be split off going to Orlando then Tampa?
battalion51
Engineer
That's certainly a posibility but I was still thinking to Miami, because we carry about 30 people per day per train between the tri county area (Miami) and Orlando alone not to mention the others that got to PAK, WPK, SFD, DLD, KIS, WTH, SBG etc. My thought though was that anyone going to Miami area that got on north of JAX would take the FEC section, anyone south of JAX would take the Orlando section.
Amfleet
Engineer
Makes sense. I would uess the inland route would get more business because of Orlando. I would also give the diner to the inland section since it is a longer ride.
Funny, the same train will be departing two different times of day. The inland section first then the FEC section 1-2 hours later. :blink:
Funny, the same train will be departing two different times of day. The inland section first then the FEC section 1-2 hours later. :blink:
Actually you can't really blame that on David Gunn. He wanted that FEC service, it was President Bush and his staff that imposed the condition of no new train startups for a year, when they gave Amtrak that 100M loan last July.battalion51 said:
I think that if Congress had acted faster in giving Amtrak the 200M than they did, then you would have seen the startup of FEC service. Congress did not attach strings to their monies, unlike the White House.
Yeah, I am an old FEC fan, too.. There must be a lot of lucrative vacation business in those stops like Daytona Beach, St. Augustine, etc. They always drew a lot more people than their stable year-round populations would seem to justify..
Big fast trains from NYC and Chicago which hardly stopped anywhere under 25,000 pop.north of Jax, would begin stopping more or less EVERYWHERE once they got south of Jax, just because there was so much beach travel business..
Big fast trains from NYC and Chicago which hardly stopped anywhere under 25,000 pop.north of Jax, would begin stopping more or less EVERYWHERE once they got south of Jax, just because there was so much beach travel business..
Actually both of these routes, the FEC and the Vegas service, should be started immediately. Both are largely ready to go and both will need minimal investment from Amtrak.
Most of the work on the Vegas corridor is already complete, and the state of Florida has ponied up the money for fixing up the FEC corridor. Local towns would need to build their own stations. So all Amtrak really needs is equipment and crews.
In the case of the FEC, the equipment is already there. It's just a matter of splitting or combining the trains at Jacksonville. Amtrak's original plan would have effectively doubled Florida service, while only requiring extra crews and engines. No increase in passenger cars is needed, unless of course thanks to the changes ridership were to double.
You can't get a more effective increase in service with minimal cost than this. We can only hope that Congress doesn't extend the moratorium that the White House placed on Amtrak with that 100M loan last July. That agreement was only for 1 year, which assuming that it's not extended, would mean that Amtrak could proceed with FEC service late in 2003.
Vegas service on the other hand, does require additional equipment across the board. However, as I mentioned above, that's really Amtrak's only commitment to this service. The work on the right-of-way is largely finished and paid for. So again cost to Amtrak is minimal.
Additionally with the potential market here, if this service is handled properly and has 2 - 3 runs per day, it could easily be the next success story and follow in the footsteps of the Downeaster. During the 10 plus years that it took to get the Downeaster running, the critics kept saying it would never work. It will never make money, let alone meet the projected ridership that the studies claimed.
Well they were wrong, not only did the Downeaster meet the projections it surpassed them. Ridership continues to grow and the State of Maine is already looking to add more trains and extend the service beyond Portland.
My point being of course, that handled properly with good scheduling the Vegas service could easily do the same. The market potential here is immense. We could easily be sitting here 5 years from now, with Amtrak owning more than 50% of the transportation market between LA & Vegas, just like the Acela's.
Plus since Amtrak doesn't own the tracks here, unlike the NEC, it could easily make money off of this service and use it to help some of long distance trains.
Of course, we still have to sadly get past this stupid one-year moratorium. Lets hope that when all of the budget wrangling is done in DC, that we are celebrating the death of that moratorium. It's certainly not needed with David Gunn at the throttle. If a new route doesn't make sense, then it won't get past David, but he needs the flexability to start new routes when they do make sense.
Most of the work on the Vegas corridor is already complete, and the state of Florida has ponied up the money for fixing up the FEC corridor. Local towns would need to build their own stations. So all Amtrak really needs is equipment and crews.
In the case of the FEC, the equipment is already there. It's just a matter of splitting or combining the trains at Jacksonville. Amtrak's original plan would have effectively doubled Florida service, while only requiring extra crews and engines. No increase in passenger cars is needed, unless of course thanks to the changes ridership were to double.
You can't get a more effective increase in service with minimal cost than this. We can only hope that Congress doesn't extend the moratorium that the White House placed on Amtrak with that 100M loan last July. That agreement was only for 1 year, which assuming that it's not extended, would mean that Amtrak could proceed with FEC service late in 2003.
Vegas service on the other hand, does require additional equipment across the board. However, as I mentioned above, that's really Amtrak's only commitment to this service. The work on the right-of-way is largely finished and paid for. So again cost to Amtrak is minimal.
Additionally with the potential market here, if this service is handled properly and has 2 - 3 runs per day, it could easily be the next success story and follow in the footsteps of the Downeaster. During the 10 plus years that it took to get the Downeaster running, the critics kept saying it would never work. It will never make money, let alone meet the projected ridership that the studies claimed.
Well they were wrong, not only did the Downeaster meet the projections it surpassed them. Ridership continues to grow and the State of Maine is already looking to add more trains and extend the service beyond Portland.
My point being of course, that handled properly with good scheduling the Vegas service could easily do the same. The market potential here is immense. We could easily be sitting here 5 years from now, with Amtrak owning more than 50% of the transportation market between LA & Vegas, just like the Acela's.
Plus since Amtrak doesn't own the tracks here, unlike the NEC, it could easily make money off of this service and use it to help some of long distance trains.
Of course, we still have to sadly get past this stupid one-year moratorium. Lets hope that when all of the budget wrangling is done in DC, that we are celebrating the death of that moratorium. It's certainly not needed with David Gunn at the throttle. If a new route doesn't make sense, then it won't get past David, but he needs the flexability to start new routes when they do make sense.
battalion51
Engineer
Just out of curiosity does anyone know the address where Mr. Gunn can be written?
Just send it to:
David Gunn
National Railroad Passenger Corporation
Washington Union Station
60 Massachusetts Avenue, NE
Washington, DC 20002
David Gunn
National Railroad Passenger Corporation
Washington Union Station
60 Massachusetts Avenue, NE
Washington, DC 20002
Viewliner
Engineer
Why'd you wanna know?battalion51 said:
battalion51
Engineer
Isn't it kinda obvious?
Viewliner
Engineer
Yes, :lol:
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