Seating Protocol

[jis]

I am a single traveler and I have never been asked to move on UA or any other airline. There have been occasions when I have offered to move to enable a mother and child to sit together. But no airline person ever mandated that I must move.

 

[Tirnipgreen]

Well...it happened again last night in Gainesville, GA boarding the Crescent northbound. When I asked for to be sat alone, "It's gonna fill up fast" exclaimed the woman who gave me the little slip of paper with the Sharpie number she had written on it. We didn't stop in Toccoa or Clemson. In Greenville, every boarding passenger was directed to another car (I think). Now, why would the seat assigner (conductor?) just flat out lie as to why I had to sit with someone else when there were plenty of empty two-seat sets unoccupied...? And why won't they ask (and require) all cell phones (and laptops) to be set on "vibrate" and headphones be used...? They do not care one iota about whether or not the customer is respected. Sad...very sad.

 

[MARC Rider]

Years ago, I rode coach on the Capitol Ltd. to Chicago. When we boarded in Washington, the directed those of us going to Chicago in one car and those going to places like Pittsburgh, Canton, Lima, etc. to another car. This was explained to us to allow those of us traveling through not to be disturbed by people boarding/getting off at the stops during the middle of the night. They didn't otherwise restrict where we sat, but if you were at the end of the boarding line, you obviously had a lousy choice of seats. On the return trip, my fiance and I were stuck with a bulkhead seat pair in an Amfleet-2 car (that's all that was left as an unoccupied seat pair when we finally boarded) with a few loud drunks in the car. We ended up spending most of the night (and the next morning) in the dome, even though the seats didn't recline.

Once we took the Adirondack to Port Kent to take the ferry. They directed us to a specific car because the Port Kent Platform is pretty short. But the conductor told us we could change seats if any got free, which they did pretty much after we left Saratoga Springs. So I was able to get views of both the Hudson valley and Lake Champlain.

When I took the Broadway Limited in 1973, there was no restriction on where you could sit.

Just last March, I had a really lousy assigned seat in Acela First Boston to Baltimore. The car was pretty empty leaving Boston. The conductor said we could switch seats if we wanted to until we got to New York. That's there the car filled up to capacity.

 

[River Cities]

We recently experienced the opposite problem to the one that started this thread. We boarded the Texas Eagle at STL headed for Dallas, and there were no empty seats together. Plenty of individuals occupying rows. The attendants were completely disinterested in helping us sit together, so we ended up staying up in the SSL until the Little Rock stop in the middle of the night when finally a few rows were emptied out.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

We recently experienced the opposite problem to the one that started this thread. We boarded the Texas Eagle at STL headed for Dallas, and there were no empty seats together. Plenty of individuals occupying rows. The attendants were completely disinterested in helping us sit together, so we ended up staying up in the SSL until the Little Rock stop in the middle of the night when finally a few rows were emptied out.

Which is exactly what happens if the attendants don't care and let people sit anywhere there want. I'm not sure why it's so difficult to understand that 1 person taking up 2 seats here and there quickly adds up. I get it, I'm often a solo traveler and have had some super awkward seat mates to the point that now I always upgrade to BC or Sleeper just to avoid the seat mate deal. But I can also see why you can't allow solo travelers to spread out.

 

[MARC Rider]

It seems this could be dealt with by pre-assigning seats upon reservation. Perhaps one could make this optional, and charge a fee to allow you to have your preferred seat. Or one could charge a fee only to solo travelers and provide pre-assignment to parties of 2 or more at no charge.

But unlike Acela First Class, they really should let you pick your seat before you finalize the reservation.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

And the computer would be programmed to automatically fill in solo seats.... which is what the attendants are doing now. Ha

 

[SubwayNut]

My most frequent Amtrak segment these days is the Lake Shore or Capitol from Chicago to South Bend for the quick 90 minute journey home, my girlfriend and I are not ones to aggressively stand in line or be pushy (I haven't ridden a train in the Northeast with her yet and then I might make her be more pushy). The main reason being the seat assignments normally issued. On Sunday we finished the trip on a 45 minute lake Lake Shore Limited, equipment trouble as the train was preparing to leave yard, and were nearly the last two passengers on, we were assigned a car but no seats and as we boarded a man was screaming at the attendant "There are no seats together, I expect to sit next to my wife!" The attendant told them they would need to talk to the conductor and he was sorry, but quite non-committal. We found two singles across the aisle from each other, and I remarked that this was the first time in 10 to 20 trips home from Chicago, generally boarding towards the end that we weren't sitting together.

Ideally attendants would put up a certain number of "reserved for parties of 2 or more signs" but not assign seats. I feel like there paperwork at the origin station would say the number of parties of 2 or more and this would be a decent solution.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

I think this happens to single passengers, like me. Long experience shows groups of 2 or more are treated preferentially. It's the general rule in the travel "industry".

Although I haven't experienced this on Amtrak trains (then again I've traveled mostly in sleepers on the AutoTrain), I have experienced this in different formats in re: airlines, etc. as well as the "Hospitality Industry" in general (hotel room and restaurant table assignments). Having paid for Continental's old "Business First" service, I'd always sit in the same seat on each flight. This, to ensure that I got my choice of meal (assuming the crew started at the front and worked their way back, like they were supposed to... sometimes they'd "cherry pick" their menu orders, leaving me to the very last).

Many times, I'd be asked by a couple who booked at the last minute and were assigned seats separated from each other if I would switch so that they could sit together. Usually, the seat they'd want me to switch to what was, IMHO, an "inferior" seat in the back of a cabin, not a window, and would result in less of a chance to get my meal choice. As politely as I could, I'd have to tell them that I selected my seat specifically and well in advance, and did not wish to move. I was always fearful that they'd try to get the FA to "force" me to move, especially if it were a "celebrity" or VIP or something. I would be prepared to defend my seat in that case. I would move only in the case of a "medical or safety emergency." Of course, what would happen is that one of them (usually the male) would still have to sit with me since that was the only available seat, and that would not be the most pleasant flight I might take. Ah well....

 

[crescent-zephyr]

That’s happened to me when traveling solo in first class air as well. It’s pretty annoying. If I haven’t gotten settled in yet I’ll consider moving if it’s another window seat, but otherwise it’s a no go from me.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If I were a single traveler on a plane, I don't think I'd be too happy to be forced to move into a center seat, especially if I had made some effort to secure my preferred aisle seat. And I think some airlines now charge extra for aisle or window seats. In that case, I'd definitely resist someone trying to force me into a center seat without at least a cash refund.

&

I am a single traveler and I have never been asked to move on UA or any other airline. There have been occasions when I have offered to move to enable a mother and child to sit together. But no airline person ever mandated that I must move.

&

Many times, I'd be asked by a couple who booked at the last minute and were assigned seats separated from each other if I would switch so that they could sit together. Usually, the seat they'd want me to switch to what was, IMHO, an "inferior" seat in the back of a cabin, not a window, and would result in less of a chance to get my meal choice. As politely as I could, I'd have to tell them that I selected my seat specifically and well in advance, and did not wish to move.

&

That’s happened to me when traveling solo in first class air as well. It’s pretty annoying. If I haven’t gotten settled in yet I’ll consider moving if it’s another window seat, but otherwise it’s a no go from me.

I’ve never been physically forced out but I have encountered this sort of thing when traveling solo, usually suggested in a vaguely deceptive fashion that attempts to make an objectively worse seat somehow sound better than the one I’d be giving up. Even on 10+ hour flights in business class couples and families have no qualms expecting solo travelers to give up their carefully selected seats just because they’re experiencing buyer’s remorse. Seats that I booked and bought specifically because I cared where I sat. Screw that noise. First come, first served; if you’re old enough to book, you’re old enough to pay attention to what you’re buying. If you didn’t like what was on offer then find another flight. If you had to travel last minute and didn’t have much to choose from...join the club. We’ve all been there and we’ve all suffered the consequences of last minute travel.

Which is exactly what happens if the attendants don't care and let people sit anywhere there want. I’m not sure why it's so difficult to understand that 1 person taking up 2 seats here and there quickly adds up. I get it, I'm often a solo traveler and have had some super awkward seat mates to the point that now I always upgrade to BC or Sleeper just to avoid the seat mate deal. But I can also see why you can't allow solo travelers to spread out.

I’m not sure why it’s so difficult to understand that one person sitting alone is not the same thing as one person taking up two seats.

One could charge a fee only to solo travelers and provide pre-assignment to parties of 2 or more at no charge.

I’ll happily fund the ACLU lawsuit that exposes and litigates this kind of selective application nonsense.

 

[zephyr17]

It seems this could be dealt with by pre-assigning seats upon reservation. Perhaps one could make this optional, and charge a fee to allow you to have your preferred seat. Or one could charge a fee only to solo travelers and provide pre-assignment to parties of 2 or more at no charge.

But unlike Acela First Class, they really should let you pick your seat before you finalize the reservation.

As a solo traveler I'd find being charged a fee for seat reservations discriminatory, offensive and likely illegal.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

I’ve never been physically forced out but I have encountered this sort of thing when traveling solo, usually suggested in a vaguely deceptive fashion that attempts to make an objectively worse seat somehow sound better than the one I’d be giving up.

I've not experienced this in re: transportation seating, but I have experienced it in re: hotel room assignments. In fact, this particular thing is one of my notorious "war stories" in re: my "Hospitality Industry vs. the Solitary Traveler" struggle. Will post in a different thread if you wish to hear it.

Even on 10+ hour flights in business class couples and families have no qualms expecting solo travelers to give up their carefully selected seats just because they’re experiencing buyer’s remorse. Seats that I booked and bought specifically because I cared where I sat.
Screw that noise. First come, first served; if you’re old enough to book, you’re old enough to pay attention to what you’re buying. If you didn’t like what was on offer then find another flight. If you had to travel last minute and didn’t have much to choose from...join the club. We’ve all been there and we’ve all suffered the consequences of last minute travel.

Precisely my position on the subject. I know that sounds cruel, but hey Is my comfort any less valuable than a couple's comfort solely because I'm solo?.... Now, that said, again it depends on where the couple have their seats. If, for example, the switch would result in me being in the same row, with a window, etc. I would do it. It also depends on the demeanor of my new seatmate. If s/he would be one of the two people I just refused, leaving them pi$$ed off at me (usually the male), then I might elect to move to avoid a rather nasty 10+ hour flight. So far, I haven't had to do that. Most of the time, someone usually got upgraded and took the seat next to mine, nullifying the issue.

I’m not sure why it’s so difficult to understand that one person sitting alone is not the same thing as one person taking up two seats.

And, although it has happened a precious few times, I have never expected to have the adjacent seat to myself, and I never sprawled onto it in advance of the flight departing. That's because, more than likely, if the seat next to mine in CO's Business/First were still "available" at departure time, they'd usually upgrade someone from coach. The "Business/First' cabin would almost always be completely full on each flight.

I’ll happily fund the ACLU lawsuit that exposes and litigates this kind of selective application nonsense.

So would I. I mean, I know the Service crew knows who their "regulars" and "high roller/VIP's" are, many by name, as I discovered. And I know they're going to take care of them. And, as long as it doesn't result in a disadvantage for me, I'm fine with that. But if it means I lose a meal choice, or i lose a window, fughedaboutit!

 

[jis]

About meal choice, it is routine for the higher status travelers to be selectively asked for the choices before the rest are asked. I don;t thin you will win that battle. I have been both at the advantaged and disadvantaged end of that equation depending on which airline I am flying and what is my status on that airline and/or the frequent traveler group that the airline belongs to (e.g. although I have no status on Lufthansa I still get treated well since I am Star Gold). And of course by design you get a lower priority for upgrades even when you offer the same upgrade instrument, than someone of higher status. It is documented in print.

 

[jiml]

In my experience this has always been a bigger problem flying than on trains. Most times it's another passenger asking to switch, which I try to avoid for all the reasons stated above (meal selection, etc.). Post 9-11 could be interesting in FC cabins, where you could be asked to move to economy to accommodate a last-minute air marshal. The only time it happened to me the crew were very apologetic and I was well compensated with frequent flyer miles, dismissing it as a "sign of the times".

Last year in Germany we booked a compartment for a day-long trip to Amsterdam and found it fully occupied, with all the luggage space gone. Only one of the occupants was legit and the situation was fully resolved when crew came to check tickets. VIA Rail used to have tenuous grasp of seat reservations, especially when it came to corridor business-class service. Seats have always been reserved by number and advance meal selection used to be possible. We tend to board at a suburban Toronto station rather than double-back to downtown, which often results in others sitting in your seat. Attendants used to take a very casual view about this - "just sit anywhere" and "we can't ask people to move", however this would often result in meal mix-ups. Of course they've abandoned pre-selecting meals for various reasons, but have gotten a lot better in enforcing reservations. On a recent trip a disgruntled passenger buried in his laptop with headphones on was forced to move to vacate one of our two seats. It turned out he had self-upgraded after departure from Toronto and was escorted from the car. VIA also used to have issues on the Maple Leaf when business class (custom class at the time) was introduced. They would force everyone crossing the border into one coach, regardless of class-of-service, saying that the distinction was "an Amtrak thing" and that the other coaches were needed for local traffic. This was inconvenient since you'd have to move your bags to the Café/BC car in Niagara Falls, NY. Amtrak had no such issues on the way back.

 

[jiml]

About meal choice, it is routine for the higher status travelers to be selectively asked for the choices before the rest are asked. I don;t thin you will win that battle. I have been both at the advantaged and disadvantaged end of that equation depending on which airline I am flying and what is my status on that airline and/or the frequent traveler group that the airline belongs to (e.g. although I have no status on Lufthansa I still get treated well since I am Star Gold). And of course y design you are get a lower priority for upgrades even when you offer the same upgrade instrument, by someone of higher status. It is documented in print.

Each airline is different. Air Canada definitely works as you describe, but my airline of choice used a system nicknamed "FEBO", or Front Even Back Odd for taking orders based on the flight number. In the last few years they've gone to online pre-selection, which is great and only results in disappointment when an entrée is substituted.

 

[jis]

And then there is Italy, where the train crew had surreptitiously sold my berth (on an overnight Roma-Zurich Eurocity) with some under the table payment, expecting me to not show up since they had changed the departure station from Roma Termini to Roma Tiburtina at the last moment. They were not thrilled to see me show up and being forced to re-accommodate their under-the-table-payment "customer" elsewhere in a sold out train.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I’m not sure why it’s so difficult to understand that one person sitting alone is not the same thing as one person taking up two seats.

I was referring to this....

When I asked for to be sat alone, "It's gonna fill up fast" exclaimed the woman who gave me the little slip of paper with the Sharpie number she had written on it. We didn't stop in Toccoa or Clemson. In Greenville, every boarding passenger was directed to another car (I think). Now, why would the seat assigner (conductor?) just flat out lie as to why I had to sit with someone else when there were plenty of empty two-seat sets unoccupied.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

About meal choice, it is routine for the higher status travelers to be selectively asked for the choices before the rest are asked. I don;t thin you will win that battle. I have been both at the advantaged and disadvantaged end of that equation depending on which airline I am flying and what is my status on that airline and/or the frequent traveler group that the airline belongs to (e.g. although I have no status on Lufthansa I still get treated well since I am Star Gold). And of course by design you get a lower priority for upgrades even when you offer the same upgrade instrument, than someone of higher status. It is documented in print.

It may be "routine," but it's not "policy." Certainly, it was not CO's policy. Officially, they were supposed to start from the front of the aircraft on the left side, and work their way back. At least, that's what corporate HQ told me. Did that always happen? Of course not. Lots of crews "cherry picked." And, in my particular case, we aren't talking "upgrade." We're talking someone who paid the full Bus. First fare... rack rate. And still, I was often approached last.

Thankfully, most of the time, I actually wanted their signature beef dish, which was their majority supplied offering. They usually offer a fish, a chicken and/or a beef. If the Bus First cabin contained, say, 30 seats, they might provision 15-20 beef dinners, and then split the rest as Chicken and/or Fish, as the stats tell them how they should provision it. They certainly won't provision 30 of each choice. I think I got stiffed only once or twice, in which case I protested by having them take the tray away.

BTW, some crews (on different airlines) would do this. They would actually flip a coin in front of the cabin (with everyone watching) to see in which direction they'd start (front to back or back to front). That would be acceptable and fair, as opposed to just "cherry picking."

 

[AutoTrDvr]

Each airline is different. Air Canada definitely works as you describe, but my airline of choice used a system nicknamed "FEBO", or Front Even Back Odd for taking orders based on the flight number. In the last few years they've gone to online pre-selection, which is great and only results in disappointment when an entrée is substituted.

And that's the way to do it! Singapore Air started this with their "Book the Cook" service. Pre-order your meal so that the aircraft can be provisioned much more accurately!

 

[Old MM]

Have enjoyed the reserved coach seating on VIA (on the Windsor-Toronto corridor) and wish Amtrak could implement same on the Wolverine.

 

[tonys96]

We recently experienced the opposite problem to the one that started this thread. We boarded the Texas Eagle at STL headed for Dallas, and there were no empty seats together. Plenty of individuals occupying rows. The attendants were completely disinterested in helping us sit together, so we ended up staying up in the SSL until the Little Rock stop in the middle of the night when finally a few rows were emptied out.

Same thing. Same train. Boarding in DAL years ago. We just found conductor who opened a new, empty coach car for us, that filled up at FTW and AUS.

 

[tonys96]

On Southwest, with cattle call boarding, we take both aisle and window seats. Most people do not want middle between two strangers. If plane fills up, one of us moves to middle, when necessary.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

In my experience this has always been a bigger problem flying than on trains. Most times it's another passenger asking to switch, which I try to avoid for all the reasons stated above (meal selection, etc.). Post 9-11 could be interesting in FC cabins, where you could be asked to move to economy to accommodate a last-minute air marshal. The only time it happened to me the crew were very apologetic and I was well compensated with frequent flyer miles, dismissing it as a "sign of the times".

Or, even more fundamentally, switching at the last minute like that would screw up the "printed manifest." If, for example (and thanks to 9-11), they needed to identify a given individual sitting in an assigned seat (as a potential terrorist) but that person switched with another, that manifest might not be "updated" in time. I'd feel really sorry for the person that volunteered to switch, now becoming the "unbeknownst target" of the authorities.

A quick funny story about "air marshals." On one trip, it turned out that my seat in CO's Business First class was malfunctioning. I noticed that the window seat behind me was vacant, with only one gentleman sitting next to it on the aisle. For whatever reason, this particular gentleman (I'd say mid 50's, balding, etc. etc.), was wearing the loudest multi-colored Seersucker jacket. I asked him if could sit in the vacant window seat next to him, and he seemed to agree. But, within 20 seconds of me attempting to move there, the FA came and 'bum-rushed" me out of it and away from him..... "You shouldn't disturb the gentleman!!!!" When I explained why (i.e. my assigned seat was malfunctioning), she replied, "I'll find you another quickly." And she did. In fact the opposite window in the same row.

I can only surmise that the "gentleman" and his very loud Seersucker Jacket was either:

1) A really well placed VIP high roller with them; or;

2) The "Air Marshall" on that flight.

I suspect the latter. Why else would he wear that jacket? Why would the FA want to bum-rush me away from him? So that the other crew could identify him easily without his having to be "in uniform" (and also to conceal his service weapon), and also to have clear access to exit his seat if he needed it.

 

[MARC Rider]

As a solo traveler I'd find being charged a fee for seat reservations discriminatory, offensive and likely illegal.

"Illegal?" Please cite the chapter and verse of the appropriate civil rights laws that states that solo travelers are a "protected class" with respect to discrimination.

By the way, I am often a solo traveler myself and wouldn't find paying an extra fee for preferred seating to be "discriminatory, offensive and illegal." Of course, if the carrier screws up and I couldn't get my preferred seating, I'd want a 100% cash refund of the extra fee.