Seating Protocol

[AutoTrDvr]

"Illegal?" Please cite the chapter and verse of the appropriate civil rights laws that states that solo travelers are a "protected class" with respect to discrimination.

By the way, I am often a solo traveler myself and wouldn't find paying an extra fee for preferred seating to be "discriminatory, offensive and illegal." Of course, if the carrier screws up and I couldn't get my preferred seating, I'd want a 100% cash refund of the extra fee.

If "paying for it" would guarantee the service I would expect, I might also be willing to pay, even though I do understand why it's felt to be "discriminatory." Why should a solo person be required to pay for something a couple or family get for free? "Legally" discriminatory? Maybe not, but discriminatory nonetheless.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

"Illegal?" Please cite the chapter and verse of the appropriate civil rights laws that states that solo travelers are a "protected class" with respect to discrimination.

It's true that solo travelers are not in and of themselves a protected class, which is why private sector businesses can legally charge them supplemental occupancy fees, but we're talking about a government owned corporation that would find it difficult to prove they have suffered an unrecoverable material loss as the basis for a solo coach surcharge. It may not be illegal but it would be extremely unpopular. Solo business travelers didn't always care so much about selective fees and surcharges, but now that many positions have been converted to contractor gigs every dollar is starting to matter. Solo leisure travel is one of the fastest growing segments in terms of popularity and awareness. A punitive fee against such passengers would hand hundreds of bloggers and vloggers a juicy rant on a silver platter. A debate with enough staying power to spread far and wide before it cooled down again. It's a bad look for a company that is already struggling to maintain relevance in the modern era. Much better to simply implement seat selection at booking time (either prior to payment or within a no fee return window). That way everyone gets a fair chance at the seats they prefer.

 

[jis]

Frankly, printed manifests get screwed up all the time with people switching seats after boarding. Good crew simply hand writes the changes in the manifest as they discover them. Bad crews just get confused. Good passengers tell the crew they are switching. Indifferent passengers don't. But it happens, even after leaving initial flight level. I have seen it happen many times specially on high revenue ULR flights more so than on local milk runs. And split families between Business and Coach shuffling seats is quite par for the course too. Fortunately I have yet to see anyone trying to get everyone in the family fed the upper class food yet.

 

[jis]

It's true that solo travelers are not in and of themselves a protected class, which is why private sector businesses can legally charge them supplemental occupancy fees, but we're talking about a government owned corporation that would find it difficult to prove they have suffered an unrecoverable material loss as the basis for a selective solo surcharge. It may not be illegal but it would be extremely unpopular. Solo business travelers didn't always care so much about selective fees and surcharges, but now that many positions have been converted to contractor gigs every dollar is starting to matter. Solo leisure travel is one of the fastest growing segments in terms of popularity and awareness. A punitive fee against such passengers would hand hundreds of bloggers and vloggers a juicy rant on a silver platter. A debate with enough staying power to spread far and wide before it cooled down again. It's a bad look for a company that is already struggling to maintain relevance in the modern era.

I totally agree with the general position. But Amtrak already in effect charges a surcharge for Solo occupancy of a roomette, which in effect is somewhat similar to the hotel single surcharge, which BTW happens more in touristy type places than in business hotels at least in the US. It is much more common abroad.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I totally agree with the general position. But Amtrak already in effect charges a surcharge for Solo occupancy of a roomette, which in effect is somewhat similar to the hotel single surcharge, which BTW happens more in touristy type places than in business hotels at least in the US. It is much more common abroad.

You're absolutely right and this complaint is limited to the context of solo coach pax surcharges since loss of use would be relatively easy to explain in the context of a sleeper compartment. After reading your post I modified my own to further clarify my position.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

Frankly, printed manifests get screwed up all the time with people switching seats after boarding. Good crew simply hand writes the changes in the manifest as they discover them.

But are they reporting those changes to "ground ops?" Probably not. And that's where they'll need them the most. The impetus to try and find a potential terrorist will come from the ground, and the ground manifest is the first place they'll look.

And split families between Business and Coach shuffling seats is quite par for the course too. Fortunately I have yet to see anyone trying to get everyone in the family fed the upper class food yet.

I've seen that as well. I wonder if they'd still permit it in this "security conscious" era, for the reasons stated above (i.e. needing to identify people in the right places)? Not sure...

 

[jis]

I've seen that as well. I wonder if they'd still permit it in this "security conscious" era, for the reasons stated above (i.e. needing to identify people in the right places)? Not sure...

AFAICT nothing has changed about skipping around among seats among passengers who agree to participate in such merry go round. 9?11 may have had an effect immediately after the event, but 2001 is now a distant memory for some, and beyond the attention horizon of many. There is now an entire post 9/11 generation entering the work force and the flying public too.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

AFAICT nothing has changed about skipping around among seats among passengers who agree to participate in such merry go round. 9?11 may have had an effect immediately after the event, but 2001 is now a distant memory for some, and beyond the attention horizon of many. There is now an entire post 9/11 generation entering the work force and the flying public too.

I won't ever forget it... I can't... I was there.

I worked about 10 blocks north of "Ground Zero" and was at work on 9-11. After the 2nd plane hit the South tower, they decided to evac my building, as it would be the next tallest in the original path of AA Flight 11. We were out milling in the street when we heard this collective "scream" from across the street. We all poured into the middle of the street, just in time to see the South Tower collapse, live. We thought it had been hit again. Subsequently, we were ousted out of the immediate TriBeCa area north to Greenwich Village/Chelsea. And I couldn't get back home to NJ that night since the transit systems were all down. Fortunately, I had relatives that let me stay at their place. I was able to get home the next day. We wern't allowed back into TriBeCa for work until 6 weeks later. Anyway, I won't ever forget it.

But, I guess, just like we remember D-Day, today, you won't forget it if you were "in it." But yeah, This generation may not recall growing up in that era. And that's when terrorists will strike again... when they catch us with out pants down. We can't ever allow that to happen.

 

[me_little_me]

My most frequent Amtrak segment these days is the Lake Shore or Capitol from Chicago to South Bend for the quick 90 minute journey home, my girlfriend and I are not ones to aggressively stand in line or be pushy (I haven't ridden a train in the Northeast with her yet and then I might make her be more pushy). The main reason being the seat assignments normally issued. On Sunday we finished the trip on a 45 minute lake Lake Shore Limited, equipment trouble as the train was preparing to leave yard, and were nearly the last two passengers on, we were assigned a car but no seats and as we boarded a man was screaming at the attendant "There are no seats together, I expect to sit next to my wife!" The attendant told them they would need to talk to the conductor and he was sorry, but quite non-committal. We found two singles across the aisle from each other, and I remarked that this was the first time in 10 to 20 trips home from Chicago, generally boarding towards the end that we weren't sitting together.

Ideally attendants would put up a certain number of "reserved for parties of 2 or more signs" but not assign seats. I feel like there paperwork at the origin station would say the number of parties of 2 or more and this would be a decent solution.

There are other methods that would work. For example, they could limit single passengers to even rows only (until they were filled). They could, if there were a group of 3 or more, put up signs reserving multiple rows (or the whole row across) after a certain city where the larger group is expected to board. Or they could limit singles to certain rows, say seats 1 to 10 (40 seats) again, until those are full.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Why? The most efficient thing is to seat solo passengers in open solo seats.

 

[Tirnipgreen]

OK...Happened again Gainesville to Greensboro. Plenty of empty two-seaters availble. When asked if I could move to one the conductor replied "gonna fill up fast in Greenville". OK...two hours away, if it does I will move. It continues to be a power trip for the Amtrak personnel. As I have stated in the past, I love riding the train...why is it such a bother to let paying customers choose their own seats from what is available...?

 

[Tirnipgreen]

Why? The most efficient thing is to seat solo passengers in open solo seats.

The nicest thing to do would be to let the customer choose their own seat, thank you.

 

[Tirnipgreen]

And the best thing to do would be to have the seating plan on the website and allow passengers to choose their own seats just as the airlines do it.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

And the best thing to do would be to have the seating plan on the website and allow passengers to choose their own seats just as the airlines do it.

Airlines don't make multiple stops between point A and point B.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The nicest thing to do would be to let the customer choose their own seat, thank you.

You’ll love southwest then!

If there are multiple seats and you request a window or an aisle seat, that’s one thing. But expecting to get 2 seats for the price of one is different. It doesn’t matter if there are empty 2 seaters, it’s the car attendants job to seat people efficiently.

 

[Tirnipgreen]

CZ...You still don't understand my discussion topic. I am not asking for 2 seats for the price of one. But if there are seats available, why can I not choose the one that I want...? If someone else decides that they would like to sit next to me, let that be their decision as well. You seem to be defending the power trip that those who work on the train seem to be on. I am the paying customer and you are (apparently) a member of the group I am criticizing. Most people on a plane would rather sit in a 3 seat row with the middle seat open...even couples. Most single people on the train would rather sit in a row without someone else next to them. When it is possible for that to happen, why not accommodate their wishes...? If the train fills up, then so be it...but until it does, why not make every paying customer as comfortable as possible...? When I see empty seats and am told that it will be full within the next stop or two, and it does not fill up...I cry foul...! Making those claims and then finding that there is no possible way for them to be true looks really bad on you and your crew. On last Monday night's run up to GRO I asked to sit in an open seat and was refused. The train was 2 hours late, the cafe was closed and I just wanted a little bit of peace and quiet. The employee then informed me that "if I wanted to get off at the next stop, I was welcome to". Nice way to treat your customer...

 

[Tirnipgreen]

And asking a single passenger to move if there are couples boarding subsequently would never bother me...as I stated from the beginning. BTW...when I fly, I generally choose my seat online..so don't come back with "you'll love Southwest" as if they are out to make my journey as difficult as they can. Air travel and rail travel have similarities and differences. You seem so defensive when I bring up this topic. If the shoe was on the other foot, your tune might change. But hold on to your "customer disservice" customer service attitude, ride the rails free for life, collect your pension and feel good about hearing of customers concerns and standing steadfast in your belief that we are just an imposition to you and your crew. I am trying to suggest a change to keep ridership up...not down.

 

[John Bobinyec]

The Crescent departs Gainesville at 8.59 p.m. It arrives at Greenville at 10.53 p.m., well after quiet hours start. So if everyone is allowed to spread out wherever they want to, here are two problems that crop up:

1. What do you do with the family of 4 that wants to get on at Clemson at 10.16 p.m. and sit together? Do you have the train crew wake people up and move people around with the inevitable ensuing arguments? Or would you be paying attention to this developing situation, jump up and volunteer to vacate your seat so that they can sit together?
2. If people can just sit wherever they want to, how does the crew find them in the middle of the night to make sure they get off at the correct stop? You might say well, there are seat checks. But passengers don't pay any attention to those, especially if a nice double seat opens up. They'll move to it and forget the seat check. Since the outside doors are opened manually, and not every door is opened, would you be upset if you had moved to a nice comfy car with a lot of empty seats but then missed your stop?

jb

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Umm... I don’t work for Amtrak, I pay to ride just like you, and when I ride solo I sit in the assigned seat that I am given. If i don’t like the seat or my seat mate, I hang out in the lounge while other members of this forum time me for taking up a space in the lounge for too long. Lol.

Also... I genuinely like southwest.

This is one of the few Amtrak policies that I can understand. To me, it’s better customer service to leave empty seats for couples and families boarding later down the line, than to just shrug your shoulders and say “ask someone to move if you want to sit together”

 

[Tirnipgreen]

And let me repeat...I am told of all these people that are going to fill the car and they never materialize. CZ, sorry for assuming that you were a conductor on Amtrak. I saw your profile listed as "conductor" and made a mistake. Again, I apologize for that. JohnBob...let people fend for themselves, but if someone moves and does not move their destination tag, that is very irresponsible and they get what is coming to them. Minors may need more attention paid toward them...as an adult, I do not. When I get on the train, I want to choose my seat and then have a train employee check my ticket and make note of the seat I have chosen. If I find it necessary to move, I would discuss it with train staff before doing so. Why not announce station stops...? Why not ask noisy passengers to be quiet...? Why not keep the cafe open if the train is running late and staff is on board...? Again, passengers are just obstacles in a day in the life of Amtrak personnel, and it shows.

 

[JRR]

Here is the problem: when you are traveling with someone (I.e. my wife) and get on the train and every seat in the cars are all taken by one person with their stuff spread out and you can’t find a seat together. People ignore you and most of the car attendants make themselves scarce because they don’t want to be involved in any potential conflict ( and neither do I).

The solution is assigned seats. I know on the Silver Star in Tampa the attendant assigns seats ar boarding and accommodates those traveling together.

On the NE regional, my experience is every person for himself!

 

[me_little_me]

As I have said before, there are things Amtrak can do to satisfy both families, couples and singles.

Families can ask that seats be reserved for them when making reservations (or having it done automatically so that the conductor knows ahead of time that those seats should be marked as such and the conductor can put tickets above those seats indicating they are reserved for certain city pairs. Such reservations could be made by , say groups of four or more, or any size which includes children.

Rows can be reserved for couples i.e. no singles permitted in those rows. Pairs of passengers only.

Singles can sit in rows dedicated to them but may not occupy both seats by dumping their baggage on the adjacent seat.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

You’ve never seen more people board your car at station stops and sit in empty seats?

There are so many Amtrak rules that don’t make sense, like the kindergarten walks and all but this one totally makes sense to me.

When you pick seats when flying online... you usually end up with seatmates correct?

 

[John Bobinyec]

Realize that who's booked on the train at any given moment is changing all the time. So the family of 4 who wanted to get on down the line decided that the train is running too late and therefore decides to cancel their reservation. When that happens should the conductors announce that over the P.A.? And what happens to those engaged in the free-for-all over those now available seats?

And conversely, what if when you get on no family is booked to get on down the line, so you're allowed to occupy whatever seat you want. Then after you get on, a family of 4 does make a reservation to get on down the line, but now, when they do, no seats are grouped together. What do you do then?

No one can know in advance who actually will get on and where with 100% certainty. It's dynamic.

Station stops ARE announced, but not overnight between 10 p.m. and 7 a.m.

If these were commuter trains where all the doors open automatically, I see nothing wrong with allowing people to sit where they want and to let people find their own way off the train at the correct station, but these trains are different:

1. They travel overnight.
2. All the doors are not opened at every stop (they are not automated).
3. Since the distances traveled are longer, Amtrak has made a commitment to sit families together.

jb

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The solution is assigned seats.

Yeah, by the customer.

Airlines don't make multiple stops between point A and point B.

Amtrak manages this with sleeper compartments just fine.