Seating Protocol

[jis]

Speaking of seat checks, I witnessed and was one of the victims of a scam involving seat checks the other day on NJT Trenton local. Soon after the tickets were inspected and seat checks placed upon departing Trenton, someone whisked by picking up the seat checks! When the Conductor came by next he was miffed, but not particularly surprised. He asked for description of the person or persons who did the seat check flinching. Later at New Brunswick the train held for a bit while the Police came and hauled away four guys.

Apparently this is a scam used by some to travel free. They snitch others seat checks and use them to try to claim that their tickets have already been checked and picked. The Conductor seemed to be aware of this, and I noticed they started using different seat checks and punching patterns as soon as they discovered the snitching. I suspect that is how they apprehended the culprits.

This scam is partly enabled by NJT's ticket inspection protocol in which they leave no proof of ticket other than the seat check with those who use paper tickets. I was using an electronic ticket on my Smartphone so I had no problem establishing that I had a ticket, seat check or not. But potentially, paper ticket holders do not have any presentable evidence if their seat check is snitched.

 

[John Bobinyec]

I still like the method used on the Piedmont trains (see post 14 on this thread) which I'll repeat here because of an addition. In each coach a few seats are reserved and are marked with blue signs - for those with disabilities or small groups. When a person boards the train, the crew determines what the person's destination is and directs them to a particular car. Once in that car, they can sit anywhere they want - avoiding the seats with the blue signs. Occasionally, people miss the blue signs and are relocated if the train is pretty full. Everyone is seat checked.

For overnight trains, I would propose something that I saw the crew of 92 do last month. They always scan the tickets on the platform but on this one occasion, they additionally produced a seat check, marked our destination on it, gave it to us, and told us to put it over our seat on the overhead luggage rack. That was new. Now if Amtrak could adopt that procedure, and allow boarding as in the preceding paragraph, all they would need to do is to make sure that the seat checks were properly placed once the train got underway.

The one glitch I see is that people like to sit by themselves and therefore spread out onto the seat next to them. The remedy for that is announcements over the P.A. system and intervention of the crew, both of which are unwelcome during quiet hours (10 p.m. - 7 a.m.).

jb

 

[ScouseAndy]

The one glitch I see is that people like to sit by themselves and therefore spread out onto the seat next to them. The remedy for that is announcements over the P.A. system and intervention of the crew, both of which are unwelcome during quiet hours (10 p.m. - 7 a.m.).

jb

Dont want waking then dont spread out over 2 seats simple and effective remedy

 

[Qapla]

gave it to us, and told us to put it over our seat on the overhead luggage rack

Not as uncommon as it may seem ... there are those who are not tall enough to place the ticket in the luggage rack - one of the reasons some of them use the empty seat for their bags.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The remedy for that is announcements over the P.A.

In my view the last thing Amtrak needs are even more announcements where 100% of the train is included so that 5% of the passengers might benefit. If Amtrak doesn't want passengers spreading out then maybe they should start by installing some obvious seat dividers along with including instructions on tickets and seat backs informing people that their personal space ends at the armrest. Save the unavoidable announcements for things that are likely to concern the majority of the train, such as updates on major failures and delays.

 

[zephyr17]

Agree with DA here. Also, on most of my trips, they have made the announcement about not spreading your stuff out onto empty seats anyway. That is nothing at all new. And they usually make the announcement after every, single station stop. The only times I haven't heard them make the announcement was when the coach load was so light it didn't matter.

Amtrak needs to find a way to cut down on the announcements, not add more.

 

[MARC Rider]

What would you do instead? We're not talking about the short distance Northeast Corridor trains.

They use seat checks on the Northeast Corridor, even for short rides like Baltimore - Washington.

 

[railbuck]

A low budget solution would be to use card stock of a different color to indicate seats to be kept free for passengers boarding down the line at a specific station. Instead of a seat check these could be called a "pre check" except that name is already sort of taken.

They could be preprinted "Reserved for passengers boarding at:" and then the station (for example, CLE on train 48). So a passenger traveling, say, SOB-TOL could take that seat. On leaving CLE, after passengers boarding there have found seats (together or in a group, if applicable), anyone could move to one of those seats if they are empty, taking their "real" seat check with them.

Coarse sorting can still be done at boarding ("BUF? Upstairs and then left. ALB? Upstairs and then right. Take any seat marked CLE on the pink slip. BOS? Three cars forward.") but it solves the problem of over-reserving for a specific station, while still giving passengers a choice of seats within the parameters determined by the crew.

 

[Gemuser]

What would you do instead? We're not talking about the short distance Northeast Corridor trains.

Simple: use the German system or a varient.
Any seat can be reserved between specific stations. In the most moden stock it is done electronically, in older stock the reservation slips is placed on/above/near the seat. Anybody can sit in those seats EXCEPT on the booked sectors, I have personally seen 4 different sector seat reservation on the one seat. If you are sitting in a reserved seat in the reserved sector you have to move and let the reservation holder sit in the seat, simple. The only problem I had was that I don't read German and so missed the sign explaining this system, so I inadvertantly sat in a reserved seat that was reserved for the third sector from where I got on. Fortunately there were two German women across the aisle who explained the problen & the rules & helped me find another seat.

As everybody on LD Amtrak trains needs a reservation it would be simple to inplement and allocat seats! Come on Amtrak joint the 21th century with your seat reservations system!

 

[wwchi]

I still don't understand why I can't reserve an actual seat in BUSINESS class as that is typically one car that holds people going to all different destinations. I would like to do that like I do when making a plane reservation. I understand the difficulty with coach and different cars allotted for different destinations but like I said, BC is ONE car so why not? That would be another additional "benefit" of buying a BC ticket and would be a no brainer for making your BC passengers happy about paying a premium.

 

[user 1215]

I still don't understand why I can't reserve an actual seat in BUSINESS class as that is typically one car that holds people going to all different destinations. I would like to do that like I do when making a plane reservation. I understand the difficulty with coach and different cars allotted for different destinations but like I said, BC is ONE car so why not? That would be another additional "benefit" of buying a BC ticket and would be a no brainer for making your BC passengers happy about paying a premium.

Particularly on the PacSurf where manspreading is horrible.

 

[JRR]

My wife and I are on three VIA trains next month all business class and have assigned seats on al (Quebec City to Ottawa, Ottawa to Brockville, and Brockville to Montreal. Not only that but the agent asked me if we wanted front facing seats and arranged for us to be assigned to front facing seats. The boarding passes give not only the seat number but also states that they are front facing.

Apparently, VIA can do things that AMTRAK can't.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

From what I understand this is actually one of those rare problems where 100% of the solution is already in place. Amtrak could choose to bring assigned seating to reserved trains in much the same way they've implemented box lunch style meal service. They'd need to start tracking and standardizing consist orientation, train call center and OBS groups, create a deployment schedule, and send out passenger notices, but the fundamental capacity is already there.

 

[wwchi]

My wife and I are on three VIA trains next month all business class and have assigned seats on al (Quebec City to Ottawa, Ottawa to Brockville, and Brockville to Montreal. Not only that but the agent asked me if we wanted front facing seats and arranged for us to be assigned to front facing seats. The boarding passes give not only the seat number but also states that they are front facing.

Apparently, VIA can do things that AMTRAK can't.

I'll bet that's 100% true! Amtrak's tech is not the best - they can't seem to even show the same reservations on the app as they show on the website. NOT hard to do, they just probably don't do it. Maybe I'll contact them again and ask about doing that. I get the short end of this stick on one of my trains because my boarding station into the city is the last stop so I only get what's left and sometimes people actually sprawl out over 2 seats to sleep since it's an early train.

 

[Qapla]

I get the short end of this stick on one of my trains because my boarding station into the city is the last stop so I only get what's left and sometimes people actually sprawl out over 2 seats to sleep since it's an early train.

Let's see if I understand this situation ... assuming reserved seats would "solve the problem" that the current seating scheme does not answer ...

Person A buys a train ticket from the "boarding station into the city [that] is the last stop [before the end for that train]" and should be able to reserve their desired seat. Everyone else that buys a ticket after that time would not be able to reserve that seat because it is already reserved ... thus leaving that seat empty from the trains originating station until the next-to-the-last-stop for that train.

I can see how that is an improvement

 

[wwchi]

Let's see if I understand this situation ... assuming reserved seats would "solve the problem" that the current seating scheme does not answer ...

Person A buys a train ticket from the "boarding station into the city [that] is the last stop [before the end for that train]" and should be able to reserve their desired seat. Everyone else that buys a ticket after that time would not be able to reserve that seat because it is already reserved ... thus leaving that seat empty from the trains originating station until the next-to-the-last-stop for that train.

I can see how that is an improvement

No you are misunderstanding. Right now I can buy my ticket from my town to the last stop which is the city. All that is different is that I PICK a seat. Someone who takes the same train from their town to MY town can also pick that SAME seat for their trip since that particular seat on the reservation system only comes up as available to me if it's not in use. If they pick the seat all the way through to the city then that seat doesn't show as available at all. It's not different than showing general availability of ONE seat for point A to point B. If it's sold out and one becomes available, what then becomes available is the seat that the person canceled. Nobody expects to leave a BC seat empty for the whole trip.

 

[jis]

It's not different than showing general availability of ONE seat for point A to point B. If it's sold out and one becomes available, what then becomes available is the seat that the person canceled. Nobody expects to leave a BC seat empty for the whole trip.

Exactly! Seat turnover is expected to happen, possibly several times en route, just like Roomette turnover in Sleepers happen all the time, and that is all handled fine by the Roomette reservation algorithms.

 

[Thirdrail7]

No you are misunderstanding. Right now I can buy my ticket from my town to the last stop which is the city. All that is different is that I PICK a seat. Someone who takes the same train from their town to MY town can also pick that SAME seat for their trip since that particular seat on the reservation system only comes up as available to me if it's not in use. If they pick the seat all the way through to the city then that seat doesn't show as available at all. It's not different than showing general availability of ONE seat for point A to point B. If it's sold out and one becomes available, what then becomes available is the seat that the person canceled. Nobody expects to leave a BC seat empty for the whole trip.

Exactly! Seat turnover is expected to happen, possibly several times en route, just like Roomette turnover in Sleepers happen all the time, and that is all handled fine by the Roomette reservation algorithms.

Let me put this into practice which is why the much vaunted the first class pilot hasn't pushed forward.

When you allow the passengers to legitimately select their seats, here is what actually happened...on a trains. When passengers picked their seats in advance, it reduced through space on train. Right now, if the train is sold end to end, with changeover at intermediate stops, the through spaced shows. When passengers pre selected their seats during the pilot, sure their was through space, but it would actually require the passenger to switch seats.

Put in small terms, we have two seats on the train.

Person selects seat 1 from TRE-WIL.
Next person selects seat 2 from WIL-WAS.

Person three shows up and want to book from NYP-WAS. Is there actually, space to do this? Yes, as there is space between TRE-WAS and the current system would allow the reservation. With seat assignment, you'd tell the through passenger there is space, but you can occupy seat 1 from NYP-TRE, move to seat 2 from TRE-WIL and return to seat 1 at WIL since others beat you to it.

Additionally, most people seem to want aisle seats. Now you have a bunch of single riders that beat you to the punch and people attempting to book together couldn't find seats together.

Now, there are ways to combat this as Jis mentioned. However, that is not true seat selection. That is selecting from the pool that the algorithm produces, which is largely what occurs with the sleepers. In general, the system picks it for you, holding through space and putting intermediate stops in the same room. That is why it has to be manually entered when passengers request a certain room.

 

[Qapla]

OK ...

• The train starts at station A and terminates at station S (that makes 19 stops - counting origin and destination)
• Person A books a trip from station R to station S and reserves seat 25
• Every person who books after that, regardless of the station they start at, cannot book seat 25 if they are riding to station S - even though the seat may be empty all the way to station R
• If no one books that seat who will get off before Station R ... the seat remains empty the whole time
• The seat would not appear as available for anyone going to the same destination as the first person who books that seat regardless of the station the first one to book gets on
• Someone who books from station D to station O should be able to book that seat

 

[me_little_me]

Sure, when new equipment is obtained, perhaps they can have electronic destination indicators located above the seats and station stop message boards.

jb

That's pretty funny. Remember, this is a company without the means (or the will?) to figure out how to:
Have checked baggage at more (not fewer stations) without needing agents at every station
Have video communication so passengers at a station can use a kiosk to see and communicate with a remote agent.
Have the ability to allow patrons to see the price on the web site for multiple days
Have the ability to have sufficient food on board trains for sale or to provide to customers
Have the ability to provide complete nutrition information for all meals
Have the ability to tell people at non-agent stations where they should stand for sleepers or coach to board quickly.
Have the ability to remotely open and close as well as monitor non-agent stations and make announcements at those stations.
Have the ability to consistently have trains aligned the same every day.

etc, etc, etc

 

[Devil's Advocate]

When you allow the passengers to legitimately select their seats, here is what actually happened...on a trains. When passengers picked their seats in advance, it reduced through space on train. Right now, if the train is sold end to end, with changeover at intermediate stops, the through spaced shows. When passengers pre selected their seats during the pilot, sure their was through space, but it would actually require the passenger to switch seats.

Dividing cabins into banks of reserved and unreserved seats could help alleviate some of this. For instance you could remove seat selection for shorter trips, set a maximum percentage of individually reserved seats by type (aisle/window/etc), and charge a selection fee to weed out indifferent passengers. It's not perfect but probably acceptable once the system is smart enough to reliably balance these factors.

 

[jis]

I would also point out that reserved seat and passenger being able to select their seats are two separate things. Reserved seats have existed for at least 75 years on Indian Railways. It is only very recently that a small subset of reserved seats can be selected by the passengers.

 

[jiml]

My wife and I are on three VIA trains next month all business class and have assigned seats on al (Quebec City to Ottawa, Ottawa to Brockville, and Brockville to Montreal.

That is a very interesting itinerary to say the least.

 

[wwchi]

While many of these arguments are valid - if I am purchasing my seat 2 months in advance Amtrak has my money already and I have paid for that seat. It's the benefit of having more to choose from if you book early. Same with a plane. While I realize a plane only goes from point A to point B, it is similar in that you have greater availability early. I would fully expect that if I wanted to CHANGE my train to an earlier or later one I would have to take whatever is available. I am a regular rider and have been for 15 years - wouldn't it be nice to get some benefit to pick a seat? Maybe that's how they do it - make that an extra perk for Select/Select Plus riders...again, like airlines do for their "frequent flyers". All of which is doable on Airline apps and could be on the Amtrak app if they figured it out.

 

[JRR]

That is a very interesting itinerary to say the least.

I left out Montreal to NYP on the Adirondack. Get to Quebec City on the Caribbean Princess.

Interesting indeed! Thanks!