Secaucus Junction's cost ate up new Hudson River tunnel money

[NE933]

Once upon a time New Jersey Transit's Main Bergen Line went under Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, both without stopping. Then it was decided to build a transfer point at the intersection. But it wasn't that simple, nor cheap, but very silly. For example: passengers transfering from a NJT Northeast Corridor train to the Main Bergen, or vice versa, have to go up to a transfer concourse first. This was intended to aid in speedy ticket processing. NY Penn station is only a few minutes away, and since conductors would've have enough time to collect all tickets, that would go to the job of gated turnstyles that would open and close each time a ticket was swiped to eliminate the free ride people who did not get their ticket collected and therefore, save it for the next time. But such an arrangement has drawbacks, namely any backup, like of the kind that happened during the Super Bowl, would result in overcrowding on the platforms, so the idea of diverting everyone out of the way to a concourse was born. Such a design during large gatherings are inherantly flawed and will likely always result in poor crowd processing, and at the very least, having to go left to go right, right to go left, up to go down, down to.... you get the idea. This criticism has been voiced since day one.

Having local trains stopping there meant the need for new interclockings on the Corridor so that they could get out of the way of trains that don't stop. A real headscatcher was New Jersey Transits relocating the Main Bergen Line alignment more south, so that it lined up with the track slots of Secaucus station. But doing so means that they were no longer facing the direction of the drawbridge crossing the Hacksensack River near the Meadowlands, so the brilliant minds had to install a nearly 90 degree curve for trains to go back North, then another right angle in the other direction, back to the original route (which ran parallel to ConRail's Croxton yard) to cross the bridge into Rutherford.

Building a mammoth structure that is Secaucus station in the middle of estuaries and swampy tidal flats costs plenty. And what it did was it rerouted a passenger stream formerly destined for Hoboken, which has ample capacity and ferry connections to Lower and Midtown Manhattan, into two already overburdened Hudson River tunnels. Note that Midtown Direct (ex. Kearney Connection) was already siphoning Hoboken bound trains them into Penn Station.

I loved Frank Lautenberg's great work he has done for the cause of passenger rail; I say this because Secaucus station is sometimes referred to in his name. It was an error of grand proportions to not have taken all the money it cost to build a three story structure in the Jersey meadows, along with track realignment, and build a Gateway/new Hudson River tunnels first. Amtrak made a booboo when it signed off on allowing that to happen, though I get it in that at the time the political will wasn't there. Now that the existing tunnels are ticking away on a non-stop countdown, while everyone wants Acelas running on the half hour, lots of decision makers are or should be going "oops".

Finally, this problem mentality did not impact rail only, but the road to reach this place as well. If you wanted to drive here, you would use the NJ Turnpike/Route 95 and then simply get off on a clover leaf. But someone must have decided that lots and lots and lots of people would be driving to Secaucus station, because after getting off the Turnpike, you shall traverse a nearly mile long boomerang routing first. Yes, an eight lane highway sized road, which is suspiciously empty looking every time I see it, goes south for about half mile, then you turn a 180, before another nearly half a mile to go compass north, to reach the parking lots. Lots of ground traveled for a net distance of very little. And it ain't over. There are designs to build a spiral, Tehachapi like loop with the goal of saving passengers the need to get up and transfer, by having trains move from one route to the other. It won't be as simple as splicing a small connection, since the grade needed to join the two llines would be significant, so, the idea is for trains to do a complete circle on a 360 + degree track. During building, space on the Northeast Corridor was kept in the form of a dead end, intended to be one of two tracks to do this ridiculous dance. It would be a travesty waste of money if this is ever done, money that is badly needed elsewhere, and I hope all who have read my essay here will influence all in their power to vote nay.

 

[Allypet]

Thanks for a well thought out post. You raise several important points. The main one I see is that most times politicians are not railroad people. When politics creep into most mass transit project, they lose the goal and become bloated and directionless. I don't think that SJ serves a real pressing purpose. The main line going into Hoboken, getting on the PATH and traveling to 33rd st takes about 10-15 minutes longer (if there are no delays into Penn) and costs about the same, so why was it necessary? Maybe the real reason was to take funds away from the Port Authority and give it to NJT? Sometimes providing jobs and money to political allies takes priority over what is really the best option for the ridership.

I can just imagine if the NYC government decided to build Penn Station instead of the PRR. The second ave subway would appear to be on time in comparison!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Secaucus was built in all it's grandeur as a antithomous memorial to Frank Lautenberg.

The concept behind the project made sense. The pink marble and granite palace it became doesn't.

 

[jis]

The title of this thread is misleading bordering on fantasy, since the time line does not line up to support the implication. One could equally claim then that any other money spent on any NJT project over the last 30 years ate up Hudson Tunnel money, as if that is the only rail transit project worth funding in NJ, which it is not. The Hudson tunnels are a joint responsibility of the NE Region, NJ being but one player in it. Due to the enormous ego of a certain Mr. Warrington, NJ had been stuck with funding almost all of it, since it was all about exclusive control, instead of cooperative development by all for all of the region.

Secaucus makes a lot of sense, though it could have been executed less expensively. It is also built to accommodate two office/general business towers above it, which has not yet come to pass.

The fact that people actually choose to transfeer at Secaucus instead of going to Hoboken in ever growing numbers suggests that the station actually serves a purpose at least for those people. Unfortunately NJT is not very good at creating schedules that makes intra-NJ transfers at Secaucus convenient, and the ticket pricing clumping Secaucus and NY Penn in the same fare bracket makes such use more expensive than it ought to be. Absent those hindrances Secaucus would be even more useful than it is today.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Oh I'm not arguing the utility of a transfer station where Secaucus is built in a financially sensible manner. It didn't need to be a 10 track monster with a pink marble great room with that fahrkakt cattail sculpture with the three levels in five part harmony and all kinds of the phenomenon.

Somebody described a wonderful transfer station as a hyperbole and a half. And then for se strange reason they doubled it and built it that way.

 

[jis]

Yeah, I agree.

 

[greatcats]

I'm the former NJ Transit employee now living in Arizona. I agree with many of the above statements. The basic idea behind Secaucus Junction is a good one and makes travel, at least in theory between lines such as Main Bergen and New York more expedient. A few years ago I used it to get from Washington, DC to Port Jervis, New York. Amtrak from DC to Newark, corridor local to Secaucus and then went downstairs and boarded the Port Jervis train. That worked fine and such connections in the past were cumbersome. That is fine. But the station as a whole, while impressive, is way beyond what is needed.

A correlation occurred to me. In the Atlantic City Convention Hall there is a huge pipe organ installed around 1930 It is the world's only seven manual ( keyboard ) organ. A notable design for sure. Who designed it? A politician, Emerson Richards, probably with tax payer dollars!

 

[railiner]

Oh I'm not arguing the utility of a transfer station where Secaucus is built in a financially sensible manner. It didn't need to be a 10 track monster with a pink marble great room with that fahrkakt cattail sculpture with the three levels in five part harmony and all kinds of the phenomenon.

Somebody described a wonderful transfer station as a hyperbole and a half. And then for se strange reason they doubled it and built it that way.

"Manhattan Transfer", it ain't....... :lol:

 

[NE933]

The title of this thread is misleading bordering on fantasy, since the time line does not line up to support the implication.

Not correct, because the urgency for additional rail tunnels is at least a couple of decades old, especially the projections of ridership increases that did come to frution with the new high speed trainsets that came to be known as Acela. Some of this ridership would originate NYP to Boston following the electrification, a market that needed to go to Philly, and DC.

In addition, population shifts in the NY/NJ area caused NJT ridership to swell also, with more commuters needing trans-Hudson capacity in some shape or form.

Let us not forget that the tunnels were going to reach a hundred years old in 2010 no matter when in the timeline it was contemplated. My indictment goes towards those who didn't contemplate it enough.

Office towers above Secaucus Junction?! You got me there, in fact I 'lol'-ed. So now they have to cut open the roof and do more contstruction on that baby. Only adds to my "hmmmmm, something really sucks about this..".

Yes, NJT had other projects that should not have been stopped, like new rolling stock, although there is some worthwhile controversy about ordering so many bilevels instead of MU's, but we'll save that topic for its own thread, especially when more is known.

BTW, how about NJT doing a real good fixing of Newark Penn Station, for a change? The platforms of tracks 3 and 4 are severly cracking at the south end, to the point where parts of it are raising up, into a small ledge, leading me to believe deeper demons like building settlement are at work. Same for track 2. The roof leaks in some places, and it seems to need a proper cleaning. My parents' wisdom used to dictate: take care of what you got first before buying something new.

 

[afigg]

Let us not forget that the tunnels were going to reach a hundred years old in 2010 no matter when in the timeline it was contemplated. My indictment goes towards those who didn't contemplate it enough.

Office towers above Secaucus Junction?! You got me there, in fact I 'lol'-ed. So now they have to cut open the roof and do more contstruction on that baby. Only adds to my "hmmmmm, something really sucks about this..".

Yes, NJT had other projects that should not have been stopped, like new rolling stock, although there is some worthwhile controversy about ordering so many bilevels instead of MU's, but we'll save that topic for its own thread, especially when more is known.

BTW, how about NJT doing a real good fixing of Newark Penn Station, for a change? The platforms of tracks 3 and 4 are severly cracking at the south end, to the point where parts of it are raising up, into a small ledge, leading me to believe deeper demons like building settlement are at work. Same for track 2. The roof leaks in some places, and it seems to need a proper cleaning. My parents' wisdom used to dictate: take care of what you got first before buying something new.

There is a $25 million project to refurb Newark Penn station. According to the Amtrak FY13 fact sheet for NJ, the remainder of the project for the station is expected to begin in spring 2016 and be completed bu the end of 2016. For $25 million, one would hope that includes cleaning the place and doing something about the worse of the crumbling concrete.
As for office towers at Secaucus Junction, I can see why no one taken NJT up on the offer. Those would be seriously isolated office towers with nothing around them. Where would people walk for lunch? Unless there is a company that wants to build an isolated office tower in the middle of the marshland so they could have a place to transfer unwanted employees to, not much of a market for the location.

 

[jis]

Redacted. Spurious copy while I was arm wrestling the idiotic editor.

 

[jis]

The title of this thread is misleading bordering on fantasy, since the time line does not line up to support the implication.

Not correct, because the urgency for additional rail tunnels is at least a couple of decades old, especially the projections of ridership increases that did come to frution with the new high speed trainsets that came to be known as Acela. Some of this ridership would originate NYP to Boston following the electrification, a market that needed to go to Philly, and DC.

It is unnecessarily sensational, which only removes credibility from an otherwise worthy cause. From a pure traffic perspective, the urgency is just overblown in the minds of some. Better planned dispersion of traffic among multiple entry points instead of trying to concentrate all traffic into one entry point is the root cause of the blown up urgency which is mostly due to poor planning IMHO.
There is an urgency to repair the tunnels, but in order to do that one would logically try to disperse traffic away from it first to find the time to repair it, not stuff more trains into it and then hope for the tooth fairy to come to the rescue.

The much vaunted high speed trains that came to be know as Acelas have added exactly 1 tph in each direction through the tunnels. In the next 20 years they will add another 2 tph, maybe. BY 2050 they might get upto 6. The place to grow capacity should first be (a) length of train, and (b) go to double decker, before worrying about huge growth in very expensive capacity. Same thing that caused the French to go with the TGV Duplex, which BTW would fit through the current NEC loading gauge.

In addition, population shifts in the NY/NJ area caused NJT ridership to swell also, with more commuters needing trans-Hudson capacity in some shape or form.

NJT had to essentially cook the books with extraneous ridership numbers to even meet the FTA new starts threshold to get any funding from FTA for the tunnels. It is not at all clear that the tunnels in the ARC form would have been fully utilized for many many decades to come, since their utility was limited by their inability to be extended east due to the existence of the water tunnel which no one was going to allow disturbing. Water supply is a bit more important than transportation, usually.

The population shift has been in parallel with job shifts across the river after 9/11. There is scant evidence that the alleged population shift has all translated into demand to travel to Manhattan from NJ. It hasn't. It has grossly increased demand to travel to dispersed office parks all over north Jersey, which would suggest that there is more bang for the buck to be had in improving transit within NJ, and incidentally held keep those tax dollars in NJ instead of spending enormous amounts of money to export them to NY.

NJT ridership to Penn Station swelled due to provision of more convenient service to Penn Station from routes that did not have service to Penn Station. Absent that there would have been some growth from NEC as service frequency increased, but noting as spectacular as is seen. Ridership from NJCL is actually down, and less than 50% of the people coming in on RVL actually go on to Penn Station.

One fundamental problem is that all the attention is focused on capacity needs for exactly two hours in each weekday. For all other hours there is plenty of spare capacity to last for decades. Best way to fix that problem is to institute congestion pricing just like is done on roads first instead of doing the effective inverse congestion pricing that is currently practiced.

Let us not forget that the tunnels were going to reach a hundred years old in 2010 no matter when in the timeline it was contemplated. My indictment goes towards those who didn't contemplate it enough.

So what? They are being maintained. It is not like tunnels just collapse one fine morning at the end of 100 years.

Office towers above Secaucus Junction?! You got me there, in fact I 'lol'-ed. So now they have to cut open the roof and do more construction on that baby. Only adds to my "hmmmmm, something really sucks about this..".

Don't be silly. Who said anything about cutting open roofs? There are access entry points built into the structure.

Yes, NJT had other projects that should not have been stopped, like new rolling stock, although there is some worthwhile controversy about ordering so many bilevels instead of MU's, but we'll save that topic for its own thread, especially when more is known.

Yes they should have ordered EMUs and continued with the extension of electrification. But guess who killed that? The same Warrington who was building his tunnel to the Macy's basement. He basically took a well laid out plan developed by Warsh and buried it six feet deep and ordered ALP45DPs, the second tranche of ALP46s and multi-levels instead.

BTW, how about NJT doing a real good fixing of Newark Penn Station, for a change? The platforms of tracks 3 and 4 are severely cracking at the south end, to the point where parts of it are raising up, into a small ledge, leading me to believe deeper demons like building settlement are at work. Same for track 2. The roof leaks in some places, and it seems to need a proper cleaning. My parents' wisdom used to dictate: take care of what you got first before buying something new.

They are. Taking precious money away from the tunnel again, I might add.

As for office towers at Secaucus Junction, I can see why no one taken NJT up on the offer. Those would be seriously isolated office towers with nothing around them. Where would people walk for lunch? Unless there is a company that wants to build an isolated office tower in the middle of the marshland so they could have a place to transfer unwanted employees to, not much of a market for the location.

That is no different from many other office parks strewn all over northern NJ, other than this one would have excellent transit connection, unlike the others which are purely auto dependent. This was an example of a planned transit oriented development. but apparently that is a concept that is hard to explain even to transit aficionados in this country sometimes.

 

[Guest]

But, wouldn't double decker Acela's not have enough space for passenger's luggage?

 

[Ryan]

There aren't going to be double decker Acelas.

 

[jis]

Not in the near future anyway. The sequence goes this way:

First you max out length of trains. (Both HSR and Regionals need this badly)

Second you max out usable slots and their usage, fix the signaling system to allow higher density operation etc. (Some has been done, e.g. between Newark and New York. More on the cards between Metuchen and Morrisville, in Delaware and possibly in Maryland in the near future).

Third you do double decker. (This is already being done in spades for commuter services. There currently is not enough Regional service demand to justify this step before getting trains to full length. Incidentally for commuter service this is being done to some extent as a matter of prestige rather than as a real demand driven necessity)

Fourth add new tracks. (Some opportunistic short stretches being done e.g. in Delaware, but in general tends to be very expensive and hence saved for the last)

For the NEC that last step is certainly not part of the immediate next round of high speed train acquisition. The next round is squarely focused on step 1, and quite a bit of step 2, though as I said in an earlier post, slot occupancy by high speed service is not the biggest problem on the NEC for the next decade or two.

But, wouldn't double decker Acela's not have enough space for passenger's luggage?

There is always a challenge with baggage space. Even single decker Acelas have end of car luggage racks. In case of double deckers there will need to be more end of car luggage racks, as found on TGV Duplexes. However, there comes a point where you take up so much space for luggage racks that the total number of additional seats becomes small enough to remove justification for using double deckers.

 

[afigg]

As for office towers at Secaucus Junction, I can see why no one taken NJT up on the offer. Those would be seriously isolated office towers with nothing around them. Where would people walk for lunch? Unless there is a company that wants to build an isolated office tower in the middle of the marshland so they could have a place to transfer unwanted employees to, not much of a market for the location.

That is no different from many other office parks strewn all over northern NJ, other than this one would have excellent transit connection, unlike the others which are purely auto dependent. This was an example of a planned transit oriented development. but apparently that is a concept that is hard to explain even to transit aficionados in this country sometimes.

Secaucus Junction has I-95 on one side and marshland & a parking lot on the other side. It qualifies for the transit part of TOD, not so much for the development part of TOD. TOD usually mean mixed use development or a office-commercial complex which is a walkable area. One or two isolated office towers are not good TOD. On the other hand, this is New Jersey, so yea, ok, an isolated office tower project providing an opportunity for money to flow into all the politically connected pockets would be TOD New Jersey style.

As for the new Hudson River tunnels, a lot of people on these railroad forums seem to get a case of vapors when they hear a $8 billion, $10 billion, $15 billion price tag. I saw a news report several days ago that Pennsylvania, Philly are moving ahead on a $6.4 billion project to modernize and expand the Philadelphia International Airport. It is a one day story with no outrage from the press or the public from what I can tell. After years of debate, negotiations, and revisions to the scope of the plans, they are going ahead with a $6.4 billion project. And it gets a collective yawn because it is project for a major US airport. Given the economic importance of the NEC and the transit connections to NJ, raising $8 to $10 billion for new Hudson River tunnels, Portal bridges should not be that difficult. Just takes time to get all the players on board. Penn Station South may ultimately be up to NJ and NJT to take the lead on.

 

[jis]

Secaucus Junction has I-95 on one side and marshland & a parking lot on the other side. It qualifies for the transit part of TOD, not so much for the development part of TOD. TOD usually mean mixed use development or a office-commercial complex which is a walkable area. One or two isolated office towers are not good TOD. On the other hand, this is New Jersey, so yea, ok, an isolated office tower project providing an opportunity for money to flow into all the politically connected pockets would be TOD New Jersey style.

Have you been by Secaucus recently? Does not sound like it. Let me just state that an office tower there would not be an isolated anything given the amount of residential development that has happened on the north side of the Turnpike there, all well within walking distance.

As for the new Hudson River tunnels, a lot of people on these railroad forums seem to get a case of vapors when they hear a $8 billion, $10 billion, $15 billion price tag. I saw a news report several days ago that Pennsylvania, Philly are moving ahead on a $6.4 billion project to modernize and expand the Philadelphia International Airport. It is a one day story with no outrage from the press or the public from what I can tell. After years of debate, negotiations, and revisions to the scope of the plans, they are going ahead with a $6.4 billion project. And it gets a collective yawn because it is project for a major US airport. Given the economic importance of the NEC and the transit connections to NJ, raising $8 to $10 billion for new Hudson River tunnels, Portal bridges should not be that difficult. Just takes time to get all the players on board. Penn Station South may ultimately be up to NJ and NJT to take the lead on.

I agree it is unfair, but airport expansions are easier to handle because of the passenger tax that builds up a hefty fund and the airport parking fees that seem to be an infinite source of money for airport operators to use as leverage to borrow against. Both sources act pretty much a dedicated source of funds.
Such is not the case with the NEC. If you sat through the discussions RPA you would have heard all sorts of proposals like a ticket tax on all users of the facility etc. It is not a question of vapors, it is a question of structuring a funding scheme given the current constraints. One thing that was talked about on the sidelines apparently was a $5 to $10 tax on NEC Amtrak tickets involving the segment between Newark and New York, plus a $1 to $2 surcharge on all commuter trains using the tunnels. NJ would then have a choice of either subsidizing the surcharge or letting passengers pay or some mix thereof. That raises a decent sum to at least start talking about a 30 or 40 year loan kind of scenario for part of it, and the rest perhaps funded by some mix of PANYNJ, NY state, USDOT and perhaps even some private funding in lieu of long term operating rights, etc. But the availability of a core funding mechanism would possibly bring more parties to the table, at least that is the theory.

Either NJ or NJT taking a lead on anything that is to be built in Manhattan is highly unlikely. Not after the ARC experience anyway. If Amtrak does not do it, and no onw with credentials to lead projects in NY comes forward, it will not happen. NJT leading the construction of something in New York looks essentially like the Government of New Jersey running a construction project in New York, which is pretty odd to say the least. NJT's tight relationship to the NJ Executive Branch makes it very different organizationally than say, something like MTA in New York.

There is a significant school of opinion in NJ to simply avoid building any extensions at Penn Station and simply have the new tunnels after connecting into Penn Station, simply bypass it and go to some location around Grand Central on the upper east side for a deep 6 or 8 track station, or even just connect into the LIRR level.

Even Drew will tell you that what happens east of Penn Station is up in the air. What they are designing for is to break out to the east from the south end of the station. Amtrak would like to see Block 780 station built, and NJ might fund some of it. But the lead agency will have to be someone who has leverage in New York. NJT is not that. And significant funds for it will have to come from places other than NJ, whether it be PANYNJ or even NY State.

Senator Schumer has laid some of the groundwork for such in the form of his proposed high speed connection to Stewart International Airport (I know, another airport and operated by PANYNJ most mysteriously, but I guess so is Atlantic City now). This would also involve building the loop at Secaucus that NE was railing against in this thread too.

 

[Andrew]

How much money would the fees raise per year?

 

[Ryan]

Eleventy Bajillion Dollars.

 

[jis]

How much money would the fees raise per year?

This is your homework assignment to figure out. All the relevant numbers or reasonable approximations thereof are just a google search or two away from your fingertips, and suspect the addition and multiplication should be easy to accomplish. It is not nearly enough for the whole thing but it is good possible seed money.

 

[Andrew]

Secaucus Junction has I-95 on one side and marshland & a parking lot on the other side. It qualifies for the transit part of TOD, not so much for the development part of TOD. TOD usually mean mixed use development or a office-commercial complex which is a walkable area. One or two isolated office towers are not good TOD. On the other hand, this is New Jersey, so yea, ok, an isolated office tower project providing an opportunity for money to flow into all the politically connected pockets would be TOD New Jersey style.

Have you been by Secaucus recently? Does not sound like it. Let me just state that an office tower there would not be an isolated anything given the amount of residential development that has happened on the north side of the Turnpike there, all well within walking distance.

As for the new Hudson River tunnels, a lot of people on these railroad forums seem to get a case of vapors when they hear a $8 billion, $10 billion, $15 billion price tag. I saw a news report several days ago that Pennsylvania, Philly are moving ahead on a $6.4 billion project to modernize and expand the Philadelphia International Airport. It is a one day story with no outrage from the press or the public from what I can tell. After years of debate, negotiations, and revisions to the scope of the plans, they are going ahead with a $6.4 billion project. And it gets a collective yawn because it is project for a major US airport. Given the economic importance of the NEC and the transit connections to NJ, raising $8 to $10 billion for new Hudson River tunnels, Portal bridges should not be that difficult. Just takes time to get all the players on board. Penn Station South may ultimately be up to NJ and NJT to take the lead on.

I agree it is unfair, but airport expansions are easier to handle because of the passenger tax that builds up a hefty fund and the airport parking fees that seem to be an infinite source of money for airport operators to use as leverage to borrow against. Both sources act pretty much a dedicated source of funds.
Such is not the case with the NEC. If you sat through the discussions RPA you would have heard all sorts of proposals like a ticket tax on all users of the facility etc. It is not a question of vapors, it is a question of structuring a funding scheme given the current constraints. One thing that was talked about on the sidelines apparently was a $5 to $10 tax on NEC Amtrak tickets involving the segment between Newark and New York, plus a $1 to $2 surcharge on all commuter trains using the tunnels. NJ would then have a choice of either subsidizing the surcharge or letting passengers pay or some mix thereof. That raises a decent sum to at least start talking about a 30 or 40 year loan kind of scenario for part of it, and the rest perhaps funded by some mix of PANYNJ, NY state, USDOT and perhaps even some private funding in lieu of long term operating rights, etc. But the availability of a core funding mechanism would possibly bring more parties to the table, at least that is the theory.

Either NJ or NJT taking a lead on anything that is to be built in Manhattan is highly unlikely. Not after the ARC experience anyway. If Amtrak does not do it, and no onw with credentials to lead projects in NY comes forward, it will not happen. NJT leading the construction of something in New York looks essentially like the Government of New Jersey running a construction project in New York, which is pretty odd to say the least. NJT's tight relationship to the NJ Executive Branch makes it very different organizationally than say, something like MTA in New York.

There is a significant school of opinion in NJ to simply avoid building any extensions at Penn Station and simply have the new tunnels after connecting into Penn Station, simply bypass it and go to some location around Grand Central on the upper east side for a deep 6 or 8 track station, or even just connect into the LIRR level.

Even Drew will tell you that what happens east of Penn Station is up in the air. What they are designing for is to break out to the east from the south end of the station. Amtrak would like to see Block 780 station built, and NJ might fund some of it. But the lead agency will have to be someone who has leverage in New York. NJT is not that. And significant funds for it will have to come from places other than NJ, whether it be PANYNJ or even NY State.

Senator Schumer has laid some of the groundwork for such in the form of his proposed high speed connection to Stewart International Airport (I know, another airport and operated by PANYNJ most mysteriously, but I guess so is Atlantic City now). This would also involve building the loop at Secaucus that NE was railing against in this thread too.

When you say that they are planning for tunnels to break out from the South End of the Station, are you referring to Tracks 1--4 or Block 780?

Also, would NJ Transit possibly look into building a deep-station near, let's say, 30th and 3rd/2nd Avenue? I am just wondering where the best East Side Station location will/should be.

 

[jis]

When you say that they are planning for tunnels to break out from the South End of the Station, are you referring to Tracks 1--4 or Block 780?

Yes.

Also, would NJ Transit possibly look into building a deep-station near, let's say, 30th and 3rd/2nd Avenue? I am just wondering where the best East Side Station location will/should be.

I don't think anyone really cares about another station further east along 30th Street. That is not upper east side. And also it is impractical to put a station so close to the throat of Penn Station. So no, I don't think anyone including NJT would be looking for such a station.
OTOH, space is being preserved for a station at Sunnyside in the vicinity of the place where the #7 line crosses over the NEC. The actual station is not being built at the moment, but it is in the track diagram for the Harold realignment in connection with ESA and the Amtrak duck unders. It will be a stop only for LIRR if and when built.

 

[BuzzKillington]

Secaucus Junction may have been overbuilt, and a tunnel to NY might be needed, but the Main/Bergen Lines on NJT have been the best performing, fastest growing lines on the system since the station was built. There is no denying that. The station itself has not been a flop like other people have thought.

As for office buildings, these were planned during the construction process until the builder went bankrupt and NJT had to take over the entire project by themselves. By that time, the large foundations had already been laid and there was no turning back on the concept design. It would be great if someone else took over the office building project as you could get to them from anywhere in the state.

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from an NJT sympathist, and I agree that the fare structure is ridiculous, but the Junction had other circumstances and is one of the highest used stations on the system.

 

[jis]

Well put Buzz. It also has one of the fastest ridership growth rates on the system at present.

As I said, I was not enamored of the way in which the project finally got executed. But part of the reason for the overbuilding is that it takes into consideration the eventual (hopefully) construction of one or two office or office and residence mixed structure at the site. That did not come to pass because Allied went out of business. And all that they got for their troubles was an interlocking named after them

 

[Andrew]

When you say that they are planning for tunnels to break out from the South End of the Station, are you referring to Tracks 1--4 or Block 780?

Yes.

Also, would NJ Transit possibly look into building a deep-station near, let's say, 30th and 3rd/2nd Avenue? I am just wondering where the best East Side Station location will/should be.

I don't think anyone really cares about another station further east along 30th Street. That is not upper east side. And also it is impractical to put a station so close to the throat of Penn Station. So no, I don't think anyone including NJT would be looking for such a station.
OTOH, space is being preserved for a station at Sunnyside in the vicinity of the place where the #7 line crosses over the NEC. The actual station is not being built at the moment, but it is in the track diagram for the Harold realignment in connection with ESA and the Amtrak duck unders. It will be a stop only for LIRR if and when built.

I just assumed that it would be way more expensive to built new tunnels to the Upper East Side instead of the Block 780 Station. What do you think?