Second Norfolk train starting in March

[keelhauled]

March 4, to be exact.  "Mid morning departure," but no exact time yet, nor word on arrival.  Tickets on sale once they get the schedule set.

 

[user 13416]

9:00 am (ish) departure, according to the release from the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation:

https://content.govdelivery.com/bulletins/gd/VADRPT-228f13e

In addition to the current 6:10 AM daily departure, the second Norfolk train will depart weekdays around 9:00 A.M.

Words cannot express how happy this makes me. As a second-shifter for life, that 6am departure is brutal.

 

[gatelouse]

Also in the media release:

We are very excited about this additional Amtrak service to the region, and the revised schedules for the peninsula that will allow expanded day trips to Richmond and Washington.

Looks like the second Norfolk train will be taking over the slot of 94/95, the current day train serving Newport News. Wonder what will happen to the schedules of 94 and 95...

 

[keelhauled]

The state has an outline of the schedule changes to both NPN and NFK service. 

 

[Anthony V]

They should add a stop in Suffolk, VA. The Mountaineer served Suffolk during its short existence.

 

[Thirdrail7]

The state has an outline of the schedule changes to both NPN and NFK service. 

It may not work that way. There are still working on crew assignments.

 

[johbeaker]

Amtrak.com is now showing the second round trip to Norfolk.  A quick look shows it runs Monday through Friday, but also south (but not north?) On Sunday?

Curious how the 2nd set of equipment gets out of Norfolk on Friday night or Saturday morning...

 

[fairviewroad]

Curious how the 2nd set of equipment gets out of Norfolk on Friday night or Saturday morning...

Probably deadhead back to RVR on Friday night...just a guess though.

 

[user 13416]

The 9am departure won't allow me to book any connections at PHL. It arrives at 3:54pm and there are lots and lots of evening departures from PHL but none of them are bookable. Only the 6am NFK departure has any connections available. I wonder if that's an oversight?

At least the Keystone is an unreserved train between Philadelphia and Harrisburg so I could buy that ticket separately and even if the inbound was delayed the Keystone ticket's good on any departure so they don't HAVE to be on the same reservation (except during Thanksgiving, which could be a problem).

 

[KnightRail]

The 9am departure won't allow me to book any connections at PHL. It arrives at 3:54pm and there are lots and lots of evening departures from PHL but none of them are bookable. Only the 6am NFK departure has any connections available. I wonder if that's an oversight?

At least the Keystone is an unreserved train between Philadelphia and Harrisburg so I could buy that ticket separately and even if the inbound was delayed the Keystone ticket's good on any departure so they don't HAVE to be on the same reservation (except during Thanksgiving, which could be a problem).

This is a big problem not just specific to this situation. There are so many logical and plausible connections that are not loaded into Arrow. An example is on the Springfield line when all those new shuttle frequencies were added, no connections were built from points like Boston and Providence. People search say PVD-HFD, and not even a fraction of the logical connections will be shown to them. They then think there is no service, and end up looking for alternatives other than Amtrak like with a competing bus company. So much money is left on the table by not showing customers good possible connections all over the system.  The more connections you show the better.  Even if some of the layovers are long at least give people the information to know their options.

 

[Acela150]

94 is now going to start out of Norfolk. 174 will be a 5am departure from Newport News. 66 will also be moved from its current time to 30 minutes earlier. 125 will now serve Newport News instead of 95. 95 and 93 will serve Norfolk now.

 

[Anderson]

*sighs*
I want to scream at DRPT right now.  Ok, I get that 94/95 et al were going to get flipped around.  That's been in the rumor mill for years.  Fine, c'est la vie.  But they managed to flip the trains around in such a way as to, I believe, prevent the Peninsula from getting anything useful out of it in some respects (i.e. the time into Richmond is probably still too early to be useful for a commute of any sort).  Flipping those trains around (i.e. NFK gets the 0500 departure back and NPN gets 0620, hitting RVR just past 0800) would probably have been a better timetable choice: Norfolk and Newport News would still each have a workably-timed morning departure.

Also, 1@VAtrainfan[/USER], that may improve over the next few weeks/months.  Remember, they just shook up the schedule...but also don't forget that Keystones are unreserved west of PHL IIRC.  The NPN-CVS connections are also a total mess right now (literally nothing shows on weekdays).  So I would attribute this to a bad load-in on the new timetable.

Edit: Oh, and just making this all the more awesome, Amtrak doesn't have new timetables out for the Virginia services as far as I can tell.

Edit 2: I've sent VHSR an email suggesting a nudge to DRPT on adding a bus in the morning to/from NPN (ideally to/from 94/95, though if they're willing to sell standalone tickets then doing it to/from the other Regionals wouldn't be a bad idea).  Ridership on the Peninsula, even after adding the Norfolk train, has been around 170k/yr...about 110k from NPN and 60k from WBG for FY17 (this has bounced around a bit for the last 4-5 years).  For reference, NFK has been floating a bit below 50k/yr.

My best guess is that WBG will lose somewhere around 1/4 to 1/3 of its traffic fully (the SB times are fine, but the functional loss of the morning departure is a real problem) with some of the remainder swinging to RVR.  NPN will probably take a similar hit (some of the traffic will swing to NFK, but if nothing else that involves going the "wrong way" over a bridge that has infamous traffic problems in the morning).  If you could retain a third of that traffic with a bus, you'd probably be making money with the bus in question (to say nothing of the knock-on effects of such a service).

 

[Anderson]

Probably deadhead back to RVR on Friday night...just a guess though.

It can just sit there for a while.  They haven't added a second NFK train on Saturday/Sunday (in fact, the timetables on the weekend seem unchanged).  Remember, at present there's one fewer RVR-WAS train on Saturday and Sunday than on weekdays, so the train isn't needed.  The yard at Norfolk contains space for three trains, so you're simply parking a train at NFK instead of RVR.  It isn't "needed" until Monday morning.

Basically, with this schedule you have the following equipment uses:
Monday-Friday: Two trains to NPN, two trains to NFK, one train to RVR
Saturday/Sunday: Two trains to NPN, one train to NFK, one train to RVR

 

[fairviewroad]

It can just sit there for a while.  They haven't added a second NFK train on Saturday/Sunday (in fact, the timetables on the weekend seem unchanged).  Remember, at present there's one fewer RVR-WAS train on Saturday and Sunday than on weekdays, so the train isn't needed.  The yard at Norfolk contains space for three trains, so you're simply parking a train at NFK instead of RVR.  It isn't "needed" until Monday morning.
 

Thanks for the analysis. That makes sense. I keep forgetting how different Amtrak is from the airline industry. Most airlines would be aghast at letting an expensive piece of revenue-generating equipment sit on the ground all weekend, but of course commuter rail operations do this all the time.

 

[LookingGlassTie]

A second train out of Norfolk sounds promising, but with the switching around of schedules and route numbers between NFK and NPN, guess we'll have to see how it all plays out.   Especially when it comes to connecting to any LD routes.

 

[Triley]

It can just sit there for a while.  They haven't added a second NFK train on Saturday/Sunday (in fact, the timetables on the weekend seem unchanged).  Remember, at present there's one fewer RVR-WAS train on Saturday and Sunday than on weekdays, so the train isn't needed.  The yard at Norfolk contains space for three trains, so you're simply parking a train at NFK instead of RVR.  It isn't "needed" until Monday morning.

Basically, with this schedule you have the following equipment uses:
Monday-Friday: Two trains to NPN, two trains to NFK, one train to RVR
Saturday/Sunday: Two trains to NPN, one train to NFK, one train to RVR

That won't happen. By the time the food gets back in the move, it'd likely be expired, or about to be. Plus what is going to happen with the crews that being the train down on Fridays? Their not going to sit in NFK, being paid, for two days.

 

[Anderson]

It can just sit there for a while.  They haven't added a second NFK train on Saturday/Sunday (in fact, the timetables on the weekend seem unchanged).  Remember, at present there's one fewer RVR-WAS train on Saturday and Sunday than on weekdays, so the train isn't needed.  The yard at Norfolk contains space for three trains, so you're simply parking a train at NFK instead of RVR.  It isn't "needed" until Monday morning.

Basically, with this schedule you have the following equipment uses:
Monday-Friday: Two trains to NPN, two trains to NFK, one train to RVR
Saturday/Sunday: Two trains to NPN, one train to NFK, one train to RVR

That won't happen. By the time the food gets back in the move, it'd likely be expired, or about to be. Plus what is going to happen with the crews that being the train down on Fridays? Their not going to sit in NFK, being paid, for two days.

Point taken on the food.  I can't speak to where the crews are based, but it might be cheaper just to hire a van to drive them back to Richmond rather than fork out for two deadhead moves.

 

[Acela150]

Where will you store a train for 2 days?  

 

[Triley]

Point taken on the food.  I can't speak to where the crews are based, but it might be cheaper just to hire a van to drive them back to Richmond rather than fork out for two deadhead moves.

I'm talking the Boston (or possibly NYP) based OBS, mostly.

 

[user 13416]

Where will you store a train for 2 days?  

The same place the train sits overnight. Amtrak has a facility on Julian Ave in Norfolk.

 

[Acela150]

The same place the train sits overnight. Amtrak has a facility on Julian Ave in Norfolk.

But is the trackage owned by Amtrak? 

 

[JimVB]

There currently is one less southbound train  to Richmond on Saturday evening and one fewer northbound on Sunday morning  I don't think a train set sits idle at RVR all weekend.

 

[LookingGlassTie]

But is the trackage owned by Amtrak? 

Not certain, but I believe the trackage is owned by Norfolk-Southern.   

 

[Acela150]

Not certain, but I believe the trackage is owned by Norfolk-Southern.   

IF that's the case and that's a big IF.. I see them deadheading the train to RVR. I'm sure that NS wouldn't be to keen on a train set sitting there all weekend. 

 

[fairviewroad]

Amtrak used to run a Friday-evening-only train from Newport News to RVR. You can see it here on this 2004 timetable.

I assume that was basically a positioning move on which they sold tickets...not very many, one would guess. At some point, they discontinued it, although I don't know if they kept running it as a pure deadhead move, or whether it was no longer needed due to other operational changes.

The point being, a deadhead (or nearly so) move from the Hampton Roads area back to Richmond is not without precedent.