Seriously hypothetical question...

[jamesontheroad]

Notwithstanding the valid and important discussions on the other threads...

If (and please, this is only an if question) Amtrak flatlines in the next few years, would VIA have the capability, will, political support, motivation and resources to take on the operation of the three remaining cross border passenger routes? Does VIA have good relations with the operators of the railroads used on those routes? And would it rub too much salt in the open wounds to see a Canadian operator deep into the USA?

Thanks everyone

*j*

--

Rule number 1: if they've got a Canadian flag sewn on their back pack, $20 says they're not Canadian.

 

[trainboy325]

VIA Rail Canada is a Canadian Crown Corporation and cannot operate services outside the country (it's a pure government corporation unlike Amtrak). With the exception of border crossing operations, VIA Rail under their charter is specifically designed to operate internally in Canada and nowhere else.

When Canadian National sought to become an international corporation, they had to recharter as a for-profit publically held corporation and loose their status as a Crown Corporation in order to run outside the country. When CN was a crown corporation, they had to own non-Canada companies (Grand Truck Western, etc.) in order to have a business relationship with the US railroad network. The only way VIA can operate outside Canada and bid on US routes and services, the Canadian government would have to accept responsibility in the fact that they would have to subsidize routes not in their own country, something I doubt the Canadian people would go for, especially with a new Conservative Party in charge in Ottawa.

 

[jamesontheroad]

VIA Rail Canada is a Canadian Crown Corporation and cannot operate services outside the country (it's a pure government corporation unlike Amtrak). With the exception of border crossing operations, VIA Rail under their charter is specifically designed to operate internally in Canada and nowhere else.
When Canadian National sought to become an international corporation, they had to recharter as a for-profit publically held corporation and loose their status as a Crown Corporation in order to run outside the country. When CN was a crown corporation, they had to own non-Canada companies (Grand Truck Western, etc.) in order to have a business relationship with the US railroad network. The only way VIA can operate outside Canada and bid on US routes and services, the Canadian government would have to accept responsibility in the fact that they would have to subsidize routes not in their own country, something I doubt the Canadian people would go for, especially with a new Conservative Party in charge in Ottawa.

The only way VIA can operate outside Canada and bid on US routes and services, the Canadian government would have to accept responsibility in the fact that they would have to subsidize routes not in their own country, something I doubt the Canadian people would go for, especially with a new Conservative Party in charge in Ottawa.

Hmmm... I dunno, he's pretty American-lookin' to us (he finished a recent speech with "God Bless Canada", which caused some squirming...)

Thanks for the detailed reply,

*j* :blink:

 

[Sleeper]

Yeah, some days it's hard to tell the Canadians from the USA'ers, (especially if they can speak Spanish, eh?).

Just ask 'em to say "out and about" - that's the real test!

As far as a Via operating Amtrak's routes, more power to them. I don't care if Osama runs the railroad as long as the passenger service still operates.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Sure, he'd run them just fine. And the service would include having your throat cut, overnight, in the sleeper, at no extra charge, and at the end of the run, running the train into the terminal at 103 mph, with a dirty bomb in the baggage car. In light of the current uproar over the arab ports-operating companies, I certainly wouldn't have expected anyone to make a comment like that.

 

[Trogdor]

Two of the three cross-border routes, the Adirondack and the Cascades, are state-subsidized. Therefore, if Amtrak were to go under, the operation of those trains could continue with another operator stepping in. I don't know about the Maple Leaf.

However, (again) *if* Amtrak went under, Metro-North could take over the operation of the Empire Corridor (there had been some discussion of this in the past, but the main reason New York hasn't yet dumped Amtrak as the operator of the Empire Corridor is because New York gets the service for free, and therefore they never technically "selected" Amtrak to run it in the first place). If that happened, then presumably the current VIA-Amtrak arrangement for the Maple Leaf could continue.

 

[NS VIA FAN]

And would it rub too much salt in the open wounds to see a Canadian operator deep into the USA?

Both Canadian National and Canadian Pacific operate in the US (CN goes right to New Orleans and you can’t get much deeper than that!) CN and CP both operate Amtrak trains (City Of New Orleans, Empire Builder, Adirondack) so don’t think it would be any different for a another railroad to operate a VIA train if someway could be found for VIA to operate in the States.

When Amtrak was formed in 1971 railroads could “buy in” by purchasing stock. Canadian National, through it’s subsidiary Grand Trunk Western operated passenger trains between Detroit, Port Huron and Chicago so was eledgeable to join. CN was a Government owned “Crown Corporation” at the time so I guess you can say the Canadian Government was one of the original owners of Amtrak stock.

 

[trainboy325]

I'm not convinced that a Canadian public service (VIA Rail Canada) would come into the United States. CN is and was a profitable crown corporation and went through the process of going public (private stock holders) and removing their connection with the Government of Canada.

If VIA Rail was a profitable company, which like Amtrak is not, the possibility might exist. However, with VIA Rail having its own share of revenue sharing and appropriation politics in Ottawa, I doubt they would seek even more responsibility to operate trains than they already have (they've had their own share of route truncations in their history) and a majority of Members of Parliment having anything to do with operating the Crown Corporation in the heart of the United States using public funds.

 

[AlanB]

Well here's the other kicker, beyond the current debate of whether or not VIA could operate into the US. Do they have the equipement to do that?

Remember, that unless the board and thru them the administration are very careful with what does appear to be their plan to kill Amtrak, the States or someone would have to buy at auction the equipment now owned by Amtrak in order to run any service.

Remember that the Administration may be able to kill Amtrak, but they can't undo bankruptcy laws (at least without great harm to the banks of America). That means that no entity, state or other, can just ask for some former Amtrak cars and start running a service.

The banks that Amtrak has borrowed money from get first crack at anything Amtrak owns, unless Congress suddenly pays off all those loans.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

The banks would get possession of the rolling stock, but who would they find to sell it to? That's the question. Realistically a lot of it would go for pennies on the dollar, I would think. Existing or p[lanned commuter systems might be interested, but not for more than a fraction of the inventory. The right-of-way would be worth something, but there's just too much rolling stock - it would be a glut on the market. That's the problem I see with the administration's argument to sell the operations off to private enterprise. Private enterprise didn't want it - that's why Amtrak was created. And any businessperson that would look at the situation would do the research and come up with the inescapable conclusion that since no national passenger rail system runs at a profit, they are ALL subsidized, they would NOT make a profit, so why get into a business that will only lose money? Maybe FEMA could buy the rolling stock and turn them into house trailers for hurricane evacuees. Actually, I think the freight RRs that are holding Amtrak stock would have some sort of a claim on the assets as well. What they (the stockholders) REALLY ought to do is to sue the Directors for breach of their fiduciary duty to the company, since they are obviously following administrartino orders instead of really trying to help Amtrak succeed. Fat chance.

 

[jamesontheroad]

The banks would get possession of the rolling stock, but who would they find to sell it to? That's the question. Realistically a lot of it would go for pennies on the dollar, I would think. Existing or p[lanned commuter systems might be interested, but not for more than a fraction of the inventory. The right-of-way would be worth something, but there's just too much rolling stock - it would be a glut on the market. That's the problem I see with the administration's argument to sell the operations off to private enterprise. Private enterprise didn't want it - that's why Amtrak was created. And any businessperson that would look at the situation would do the research and come up with the inescapable conclusion that since no national passenger rail system runs at a profit, they are ALL subsidized, they would NOT make a profit, so why get into a business that will only lose money? Maybe FEMA could buy the rolling stock and turn them into house trailers for hurricane evacuees. Actually, I think the freight RRs that are holding Amtrak stock would have some sort of a claim on the assets as well. What they (the stockholders) REALLY ought to do is to sue the Directors for breach of their fiduciary duty to the company, since they are obviously following administrartino orders instead of really trying to help Amtrak succeed. Fat chance.

The banks would get possession of the rolling stock, but who would they find to sell it to?  That's the question.  

*James daydreams of VIA hauling superliners from Montréal to Halifax and Gaspé*

(well they did get the Nightstar stock cheap from Eurostar when the sleeper project went tits up, maybe they'd be on the look out for another bargain?) B)

*j* :blink:

 

[ivan]

Hi

Thanks to James who gave me the info on this group.

I have just completed a long trip of 25 days with Via Rail and Amtrak:

first leg: Aldershot - Ottawa - Montreal

2nd leg: Montreal - Chicago - Minneapolis

3rd leg: Minneapolis - Seattle _ Vanocuver

4th leg: Vancouver - Seattle-mLA - Las Vegas

5th leg: Las Vgeas - LA - Seattle _ vancouver

6th leg: Vancouver - Jasper - Prince George

7th leg: Prince George - Prince Rupert

I have posted my 1-3rd leg in my blog: http://indoforums.info/travel/travel01.htm

Then we took the ferry from Prince Rupert to Port Hardy and bus fromm Port Hardy - Victoria then to Vancouyer by ferry

In terms of hardware Via and Amtrak can be considered on par, but Amtrak is leading in train design (they use Bombardier car??)

The real difference is in service. Before even starting the 2nd leg we have so much trouble in dealing with Amtrak. The Montreal Amtrak counter is supposed to open by 7 AM and when we were there at 8 AM it is empty. Only when we returned at 9 found it open but with a very long waiting time (duen to passenger having to call US Amtrak first) We spent 1 hr on the phone to get confirmation before qwe can even get our ticket printed.

This is probably due to our North America pass - whcih was served by only 1 phone operator. You need to cal several times daily until successful conncetion and listening elelvator music

for hour/s

We also found that Via rail staff are consumer oriented and Amtrak are not..

Thed worst delay was a 6hrs delay from LA to Seattle which wreck all passenger mood and no apologies was given. Compared to my very nice experience with Via (this time only a 2 hr delay) but what a diff!

Louise - the Via conductor personally approach inform us, help us in getting taxi and paid for it, help us book our hotels in Prince Geoirge and Prince Rupert, cheerfully help us with baggage and info. The Via staff managed to turn a 2 hour delay due to freight train derailment into a show of force of Via rail service

I wrote in my blog http://indoforums.info/travel/travel01.htm, that I wish Via will take over Amtrak and here I amj in this forum!

I have no knowledge of Via's mission but I think Amtrak should at least import Via's staff to provide them with basic service training. Lonely Planet Forum