St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

[Metra Electric Rider]

Funding is now in place for starting the second frequency between Chicago and the Twin Cities.

Thanks for posting that! There's actually more infrastructure work involved than I'd realized, but it's beneficial for all the services, it sounds like.

 

[wildchicken13]

It is very likely that it will have the same consist as a Hiawatha.

Why not just extend the Hiawatha Service to the Twin Cities?

 

[MARC Rider]

Why not just extend the Hiawatha Service to the Twin Cities?

Isn't that sort of what they're doing? They might call the Twin Cities train something else, but that's just marketing.

 

[WWW]

So many variables here - - -
Just a few - - -
If these second trains operate in the daytime - no bilevel sleepers diners coach and lounge cars needed - a single level consist Hiawatha would work.
A baggage car in the mix adding a cafe car would replace a diner.
A consist of locomotive baggage and 5 more cars should work well
A Push-Pull configuration not required as both end points have a WYE
Duplication of service to some small cities Portage Columbus Tomah could be flagged or eliminated
Future expansion origin/termination at Duluth this consist would work well
Think of this second train more as a business/commuter express rather than a tourist excursion
CP Rail would no doubt like a shorter faster train set to run the tracks around their freights and
BNSF expansion included (Duluth ! St. Cloud ? Willmar ?)

Now if this hope dream doesn't get derailed - with the price of fuel - alternate transportation modes are going to be one solution !

The tracks are there - upgrade the slow deficient spots - lets getter done !

 

[west point]

Unlikely but CPRR could allow quick start as long as improvements made later? Schedules would need to be longer at first but once improvements completed??? Wouldn't that upset the other class 1s?

 

[SwedeC]

Was there any mention of using UP (Ex-C&NW) trackage north of Milwaukee to give service to other cities? Sorry I'm behind the curve on this one.

 

[WICT106]

Was there any mention of using UP (Ex-C&NW) trackage north of Milwaukee to give service to other cities? Sorry I'm behind the curve on this one.

No. There is an effort afoot to add future service along the "400" route, diverting at Camp Douglas, and operating via Eau Claire, but following the existing route Camp Douglas - MKE.

 

[jebr]

Unlikely but CPRR could allow quick start as long as improvements made later? Schedules would need to be longer at first but once improvements completed??? Wouldn't that upset the other class 1s?

I vaguely remember hearing a quick start being mentioned in one of the articles when the full funding was approved. Not sure about the details of that or if it's realistic, though, but the way I remember it mentioned made it sound like CP was okay with it. It certainly doesn't hurt that CP is trying to get approval for a big merger, so they're likely being a bit more flexible and friendly to Amtrak than normal - although I will note that they currently have the top grade from Amtrak, and in my experience they generally do a good job handling the Builder "on-schedule" even when BNSF has one of its frequent bad days and the train's delayed 2, 4, or 12 hours.

 

[jis]

At present the equipment planned for this service looks very much like a clone of a Hiawatha set.

 

[MisterUptempo]

From trains.com-

The final design phase of the project to add a second Amtrak passenger train between Chicago and Minneapolis-St. Paul has begun, with public comments now being accepted and public meetings to show plans for the service expected to be held this fall.

------------------SNIP-------------------

Final design is expected to be complete in summer 2023, with construction beginning late that year and concluding in 2025. The second train is expected to begin operating in 2024 or earlier.

WisDOT's TCMC page
MnDOT's TCMC page
Anyone wishing to comment on TCMC can do so here

 

[WWW]

Adding to the existing EB route MKA and STV (Milwaukee Airport & Sturtevant) Hiawatha stops - - -

 

[west point]

Several thoughts in no particular order.
1. Will the Amtrak ridership be within say 15 % +/- of projections ? If the numbers fall out those values what will happen? If more where will additioncar(s) be forth coming. Will Minnessota set a standard fare? Will it be reserved north of MKE or from CHI?. I would expect that fares will be the same at all times which may cause high overloads at peak times.
2. The realibilty of MSP departures will give more passengers confidence of booking the EB. The very late departures that happens too often. If EB more that ~ 4 hours late then EB originating passengers can take this new second train Will that overload the train?
3. Will Amtrak have to limit the passengers CHI to MKE since an ~~ 0800 departure could be very desireable.?
4. The improvements CHI - MKE may just improve schedule reliability and not provide for schedule reduction.
5. Equipment availability will be a problem thru most of 2023 and maybe 2024 if the Siements cars have an unanticipated delay becoming fully operational.
6. Will CP allow start of service as soon as equipment available with partial improvements ongoing before completion? Not likely but who knows for sure?.

 

[Kramerica]

Regarding the TCMC (Twin Cities Milwaukee Chicago) second frequency, that is actually a go. They have the funding, the environmental approvals, and a schedule to start construction in 2023. So there will be two round trips now, including the one Empire Builder frequency. The TCMC will leave MSP around noon and Chicago around 11 AM.

https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/multimodal/tcmc.aspx

Article with more information:
Transportation: TCMC Train Poised for 2024 Start

Basically the only construction needed is some spot track and siding improvements in Winona, La Crescent, and La Crosse.


Hopefully once TCMC is running, it will increase demand for more service and service to Madison. Personally, I'm looking forward to taking train trips from MKE to MSP and utilizing their light rail system.

 

[Anderson]

Several thoughts in no particular order.
1. Will the Amtrak ridership be within say 15 % +/- of projections ? If the numbers fall out those values what will happen? If more where will additioncar(s) be forth coming. Will Minnessota set a standard fare? Will it be reserved north of MKE or from CHI?. I would expect that fares will be the same at all times which may cause high overloads at peak times.
2. The realibilty of MSP departures will give more passengers confidence of booking the EB. The very late departures that happens too often. If EB more that ~ 4 hours late then EB originating passengers can take this new second train Will that overload the train?
3. Will Amtrak have to limit the passengers CHI to MKE since an ~~ 0800 departure could be very desireable.?
4. The improvements CHI - MKE may just improve schedule reliability and not provide for schedule reduction.
5. Equipment availability will be a problem thru most of 2023 and maybe 2024 if the Siements cars have an unanticipated delay becoming fully operational.
6. Will CP allow start of service as soon as equipment available with partial improvements ongoing before completion? Not likely but who knows for sure?.

(1) Acquiring additional cars is almost assuredly plausible since the production line should be going for some time. Getting an option of another 2-6 cars is hardly implausible. As to the other questions - that's all TBD, I suspect.
(2) Possibly, on a case-by-case basis. The ideal approach (which would involve different equipment) would be to go back to running a train (I believe it was) 807/808 that was a set of cars that was run CHI-MSP on the Builder - you'd simply attach the cars to this train if the Builder was running stupidly late (and I might suggest, up-stock the cafe car as well). Of course, that would require Amtrak to do a few things differently...
(3) Probably, but this could be handled via simple space management - only selling X number of tix CHI-MKE.
(4) This is, of course, true. Another possibility is that intermediate times are adjusted but endpoint times aren't.
(5) Of course.
(6) No clue.

 

[Willbridge]

Regarding the TCMC (Twin Cities Milwaukee Chicago) second frequency, that is actually a go. They have the funding, the environmental approvals, and a schedule to start construction in 2023. So there will be two round trips now, including the one Empire Builder frequency. The TCMC will leave MSP around noon and Chicago around 11 AM.

https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/multimodal/tcmc.aspx

Article with more information:
Transportation: TCMC Train Poised for 2024 Start

Basically the only construction needed is some spot track and siding improvements in Winona, La Crescent, and La Crosse.


Hopefully once TCMC is running, it will increase demand for more service and service to Madison. Personally, I'm looking forward to taking train trips from MKE to MSP and utilizing their light rail system.

I pulled out a 1963 Milwaukee Road schedule and found that Train 5 departed Chicago at 10:30 a.m. and Train 2 departed St. Paul at 12:40 p.m. Aside from glamorous equipment, the former Hiawatha service had many connections at Chicago. The new train has few connections but is in a far bigger marketplace. It will be interesting to see how it does.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

So are there actually any concrete dates for service starting up? It sounds like late '23 if I'm reading right.

Anybody have more concrete info?

 

[Eric S]

I suspect 2024 or 2025 is likelier than 2023. Construction is programmed for 2023-2024-2025 (MnDOT says 2024-2025, WisDOT says 2023-2024).

 

[jebr]

Last I was told (which was back in early summer,) CP has agreed to let the trains start running before construction is complete. The limiting factor right now is staffing and equipment availability on Amtrak's end, and who knows when that will be ready.

 

[west point]

Last I was told (which was back in early summer,) CP has agreed to let the trains start running before construction is complete. The limiting factor right now is staffing and equipment availability on Amtrak's end, and who knows when that will be ready.

That will be good as patrons like the idea of reduced running time after servicehas started. Look at NC.

 

[Kramerica]

Great River (train) - Wikipedia

Looks the train has a new name: Great River

I do not like it. Doesn't even spend a third of its route along the Mississippi. Should call it the '400', except for the fact that our modern Amtrak can't manage to get this train to run on a 400 minute schedule like Amtrak's predecessors were able to do. Twin Cities Hiawatha would be a good name.

There have been articles in local papers in the last week saying that the train is supposed to start up by the end of 2023.

This is going to take the place of Hiawatha 333 and 340. Unfortunately for train 340, which currently departs Milwaukee at 5:45 PM every day, pretty much always on time since it is the origin, it will now be much more unpredictable since the train will have had 6 hours to find a way to become late on its way from St. Paul. Amtrak trains are more likely than not to find a way to be late.

 

[TransitTyrant]

Great River (train) - Wikipedia

Looks the train has a new name: Great River

I do not like it. Doesn't even spend a third of its route along the Mississippi. Should call it the '400', except for the fact that our modern Amtrak can't manage to get this train to run on a 400 minute schedule like Amtrak's predecessors were able to do. Twin Cities Hiawatha would be a good name.

There have been articles in local papers in the last week saying that the train is supposed to start up by the end of 2023.

This is going to take the place of Hiawatha 333 and 340. Unfortunately for train 340, which currently departs Milwaukee at 5:45 PM every day, pretty much always on time since it is the origin, it will now be much more unpredictable since the train will have had 6 hours to find a way to become late on its way from St. Paul. Amtrak trains are more likely than not to find a way to be late.

The name comes from the advocacy group that pushed hard for the service, the Great River Rail Commission. Personally I don’t mind the name and frankly calling it the “400” makes no sense. The CNW train was gone before the idea of Amtrak and the only historical name that would fit would be the Twin Cities Hiawatha.

I’ve heard from an acquaintance who attended a meeting that Amtrak expects the service to start mid to late summer, that’s where the confirmation of the Great River name comes from. I’ll try and track down confirmation but everything is still up in the air obviously. Although the train 340 issue might be worrisome remember that WisDOT plans to add the 8th Hiawatha in 2024. RT 9-10 will be delayed until a rework of the Muskego Yard bypass is designed.

 

[MisterUptempo]

The name comes from the advocacy group that pushed hard for the service, the Great River Rail Commission. Personally I don’t mind the name and frankly calling it the “400” makes no sense. The CNW train was gone before the idea of Amtrak and the only historical name that would fit would be the Twin Cities Hiawatha.

I’ve heard from an acquaintance who attended a meeting that Amtrak expects the service to start mid to late summer, that’s where the confirmation of the Great River name comes from. I’ll try and track down confirmation but everything is still up in the air obviously. Although the train 340 issue might be worrisome remember that WisDOT plans to add the 8th Hiawatha in 2024. RT 9-10 will be delayed until a rework of the Muskego Yard bypass is designed.

I don't know if your acquaintance attended the Amtrak board meeting in December, 2022, but the Wiki entry that @Kramerica linked to cites the transcript of that meeting. The portion that discusses the route name and start date is as follows-

Q35. Which Amtrak Connects US projects do you expect to move forward in FY 2023?

A35. Dennis Newman: We anticipate the start of Chicago-Twin Cities Great River service by summer 2023 and are hopeful for the start of New Orleans-Mobile, Alabama, Gulf Coast service later in the year.

I appreciate the explanation behind the naming of the new service.

Almost wish it was named Great Rivers, as the train departs the Twin Cities, which is separated by the Mississippi River (which itself is crossed rolling from Minnesota into Wisconsin), the Menomonee River flowing past the Milwaukee Intermodal Station as it merges with the Milwaukee River, finally arriving at Chicago Union Station, along the banks of the Chicago River.

 

[Roomette11]

This is going to take the place of Hiawatha 333 and 340. Unfortunately for train 340, which currently departs Milwaukee at 5:45 PM every day, pretty much always on time since it is the origin, it will now be much more unpredictable since the train will have had 6 hours to find a way to become late on its way from St. Paul. Amtrak trains are more likely than not to find a way to be late.

So true. This chronic uncertainty about “when the train will show up” or “get there” will dog Amtrak until it is solved. Assuming it ever happens, it will be fascinating to see a confident Amtrak (or other operating company) launch a marketing campaign to try to change that reputation for tardiness.

I hope the train’s on-time performance is better than expected. Maybe Precision Scheduled Railroading can actually apply to passenger trains. Precise. And scheduled without the padding.

 

[jis]

I hope the train’s on-time performance is better than expected. Maybe Precision Scheduled Railroading can actually apply to passenger trains.

What? Run mile long passenger trains? No thanks

Precise. And scheduled without the padding.

Schedule without padding is a fantasy of railfans who do not understand how real railroads operate. It does not happen anywhere in the world. Relatively small padding yes. But it is always there.

Actually some railroads use something called "Booked speed", which is a speed, lower than the maximum allowed speed, that is used for scheduling purposes. Others just add some padding usually near the division points.

In any case, the timetable should reflect times that are achievable in real life and not some fantasy based on some arbitrary numbers like maximum speed, which may be seldom achieved in real operation.

 

[Anderson]

TBCH "Twin Cities Hiawatha" would actually be a very reasonable name for the service. Frankly, bolting "[descriptor] Hiawatha" onto WI/MN-bound services would make sense as a "service brand" (e.g. "Green Bay Hiawatha", "Madison/Capitol Hiawatha") since the name is in use for the corridor service as-is (I might brand the existing service the "Milwaukee Hiawatha" in this context).