State funding proposed for freight rail tunnel at Detroit-Windsor
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This looks promising, perhaps if it is actually built Amtrak may once again be able to run passenger trains between Chicago and Toronto like in the old days!(even though it was through Sarnia instead of Detroit)
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This was largely the case, though I suspect that with a secure facility a la Vancouver you could arrange something whereby Amtrak would run to (for example) Windsor. You'd get off, have a layover to run through security, and then board VIA.
Why not just coordinate with VIA and run a through Train between Chicago and Toronto (it could be an Amtrak or a joint Amtrak/VIA Train) with Customs and Immigration done @ Windsor a la the Maple Leaf @ Niagara Falls as Cliff said? ( there already is 24/7 Service on both ends of the Tunnel and the Bridge!)
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But how is that any different than how Amtrak and VIA operated the International when it was a through train Chicago-Toronto via Port Huron-Sarnia?
I guess ultimately I'm wondering how operating through Detroit-Windsor is any different (in terms of border issues) than operating through Port Huron-Sarnia.
J
jimhudson
Guest
I'm not certain if the Port Huron-Sarnia crossing has 24 Hour Customs and immigration but Detroit-Wondsor does at the Bridge as well as the current Tunnel!
This seems to be a sticking point ever since 911, especially with the American side! There are more daily Trains on the Windsor-Toronto Route than Sarnia-Toronto so with a Daily Train running from Chicago to Detroit to Windsor to London to Toronto there is a better chance for ridership on this route than the old International!
I'd think that not having to change Trains in Windsor would be the best way to go, it could be run like the Maple Leaf, a joint Amtrak/VIA Train, or like the Adirondack or Cascades, an Amtrak Train only! Knowing how Canadian Labor Laws are, I'd think Canada would want a VIA run Train from Windsor to Toronto!
This seems to be a sticking point ever since 911, especially with the American side! There are more daily Trains on the Windsor-Toronto Route than Sarnia-Toronto so with a Daily Train running from Chicago to Detroit to Windsor to London to Toronto there is a better chance for ridership on this route than the old International!
I'd think that not having to change Trains in Windsor would be the best way to go, it could be run like the Maple Leaf, a joint Amtrak/VIA Train, or like the Adirondack or Cascades, an Amtrak Train only! Knowing how Canadian Labor Laws are, I'd think Canada would want a VIA run Train from Windsor to Toronto!
jis
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The problem though is that it requires an additional consist or two. I suppose Michigan has to want it enough to come up with those from somewhere, or Amtrak has to want to do it enough to come up with the resources out of thin air. So I believe the first sticking point is equipment availability. After that is addressed.... hey here is a possible use for those two Talgos) then border formalities might become an issue.
Of course given the way things work these days, irrespective of whether you have a one seat or a two seat ride, it seems to be the case that you have to disembark with your bag and baggage, go through customs and immigration and then reboard the train to continue on your way. So the only difference would be which train you board after the border formalities.
Of course given the way things work these days, irrespective of whether you have a one seat or a two seat ride, it seems to be the case that you have to disembark with your bag and baggage, go through customs and immigration and then reboard the train to continue on your way. So the only difference would be which train you board after the border formalities.
J
jimhudson
Guest
Wouldn't a Chicago to Toronto Train via Detroit be considered a LD Train since its International instead of a State Supported one? Otherwisecyoud have to have Illinois (positive), Indiana ( a negative) and Michigan involved plus the Provence of Ontario and VIA and the US and Canadian Governments! Maybe be 2100 wed see this Route in operation?
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
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Keep in mind that the current years appropriation, unless fixed by Senate is actually calling for getting rid of one LD train. Introducing an LD train which runs more than half its journey in Canada is not exactly something that is on the cards for a long time to come IMHO.
I understand that during the Empire Corridor negotiations an idea that was floated was to make the Maple Leaf a Washington - Toronto train which would have put it over the 750 mile threshold assuming the distance in Canada was counted. Apparently the determination was that only the distance in US would count since in Canada it is a VIA train, and counting the distance in US it fell short of 750 miles. Consequently the idea was dropped and the Maple Leaf remains part of the New York subsidized Empire Service. I am sure the same logic would be applied to any Chicago - Toronto train too, and the miles used for considering its status would 300 and change.
And BTW, you don;t really have to have every state involved en route. You could run it doors locked through Indiana easily. In any case you have to have VIA and possibly Ontario involved as they are with the Maple Leaf. Like the Maple Leaf, when the International ran, I believe it was a VIA train in Canada.
I understand that during the Empire Corridor negotiations an idea that was floated was to make the Maple Leaf a Washington - Toronto train which would have put it over the 750 mile threshold assuming the distance in Canada was counted. Apparently the determination was that only the distance in US would count since in Canada it is a VIA train, and counting the distance in US it fell short of 750 miles. Consequently the idea was dropped and the Maple Leaf remains part of the New York subsidized Empire Service. I am sure the same logic would be applied to any Chicago - Toronto train too, and the miles used for considering its status would 300 and change.
And BTW, you don;t really have to have every state involved en route. You could run it doors locked through Indiana easily. In any case you have to have VIA and possibly Ontario involved as they are with the Maple Leaf. Like the Maple Leaf, when the International ran, I believe it was a VIA train in Canada.
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If they did run a thru train from Chicago to Toronto via Windsor, it would almost have to be a joint Amtrak/Via Train, just as the International was via Port Huron and Sarnia.
There are just too many miles on the Canadian side to make it an all-Amtrak train like the Montreal train(s) are or were....
They could perhaps run an all-Amtrak train on the slightly longer Maple Leaf route, but then most likely it would not be permitted to carry passengers whose entire journey was within Canada, unless, Via and Go Transit decided to end their own service between the affected points.
As for needing another equipment set....if it was run as a joint train, then Via would have to provide their share of the pooled equipment. That was how it was done when the International ran...
Since it would likely replace existing trains on the current timetable's, there should not be any need for additonal equipment, unless the border crossing eats up too much time...
Whatever, I would love to see a thru train return on the Chicago/Toronto route. I wouldn't mind seeing them run a Detroit-Buffalo-New York City train, as well...miss the old Niagara Rainbow.....
There are just too many miles on the Canadian side to make it an all-Amtrak train like the Montreal train(s) are or were....
They could perhaps run an all-Amtrak train on the slightly longer Maple Leaf route, but then most likely it would not be permitted to carry passengers whose entire journey was within Canada, unless, Via and Go Transit decided to end their own service between the affected points.
As for needing another equipment set....if it was run as a joint train, then Via would have to provide their share of the pooled equipment. That was how it was done when the International ran...
Since it would likely replace existing trains on the current timetable's, there should not be any need for additonal equipment, unless the border crossing eats up too much time...
Whatever, I would love to see a thru train return on the Chicago/Toronto route. I wouldn't mind seeing them run a Detroit-Buffalo-New York City train, as well...miss the old Niagara Rainbow.....
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NS VIA Fan
Conductor
Yes, a busy freeway crossing on the Blue Waters Bridge between ON402 and Interstates 69/94. Its also a busy CN Tunnel crossing that is already capable of handling double-stack trains.
NS VIA Fan
Conductor
Dont think there is anything stopping them now except the will and the money! The existing Detroit Tunnel is quite capable of handling a passenger train.
Through trains between Toronto and Chicago werent restricted to the Sarnia/Port Huron route. Through Canadian Pacific-New York Central trains always ran via Windsor/Detroit and after the through service ended......CP continued to run RDC Dayliners from Toronto through the tunnel and into Michigan Central Station, Detroit to connect with New York Central trains to/from Chicago.
CN also offered service between Detroit and Toronto by carrying through cars on railcar ferries across the Detroit River to Windsor where they were added to CN trains to/from Toronto.
Thanks for the Info! Perhaps once the new tunnel is built the current one can once again be used for cross border trains!
But there is no need to wait for a new tunnel. With the needed equipment and funding, the trains could be operated now, through the existing tunnels (either Detroit-Windsor or Port Huron-Sarnia).
Hmmm...I am not faimiliar with the CN operation using car ferries. In your vast archives, do you have any timetables or photos's of that operation? I assume the cars went to the GTW station in Detroit, somehow....
NS VIA Fan
Conductor
Heres some timetables.
- 1948: Note the equipment lists on the left showing the through, coaches, sleepers and parlour cars that were ferried over to Windsor to continue on.
- 1958: Now a bus service that looped through Detroit connecting with CN in Windsor.
-1971: Buses lasted till Amtrak. After that the CN timetable had a note that limousine service between Windsor and Detroit was available.
MikefromCrete
Engineer
Wouldn't there be some problem getting a train using the new Detroit tunnel to the existing Windsor-Toronto VIA route? Of course, as others have noted, a Chicago-Toronto train could just be routed through the Port Huron-Sarina tunnel as it used to operate.
NS VIA Fan
Conductor
It can be done but would require routing over the Essex Terminal Railway industrial trackage in Windsor.
A better option might be a connection onto the CPR near Chatham then a straight run to the tunnel. The drawback would be the train could not use the VIA owned track between Chatham and Windsor which was recently rebuilt and signaled for high-speed operation. Also it could not use the new station.
Thankyou!!!Heres some timetables.
- 1948: Note the equipment lists on the left showing the through, coaches, sleepers and parlour cars that were ferried over to Windsor to continue on.
- 1958: Now a bus service that looped through Detroit connecting with CN in Windsor.
-1971: Buses lasted till Amtrak. After that the CN timetable had a note that limousine service between Windsor and Detroit was available.
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It will be great if VIA Rail or Amtrak run passenger train between Chicago and Toronto again. I know that VIA Rail or CN used to run train between Chicago and Toronto via Sarnia. It is no fun if I take Amtrak to Detroit. Then I take bus to downtown then take Tunnel Bus to Winsdor. Then I take bus to VIA Rail station.
oldtimer
OBS Chief
If memory serves me correctly I think that the "Niagara Rainbow" had some sort of state support from Michigan.
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