Superliner Replacement Costs

[Deni]

Alstom probably has a production line in place already that can churn out those types of cars (that will even pass the buff-strength test with ease) in relatively short order. That line at present is busy producing cars for METRA.

Nippon-Sharyo OTOH, not so much. CAF, who knows? Bombardier will be Alstom by the time this happens anyway.

I'm really looking forward to those new Metra cars. A way overdue change to get away from those galley cars.

 

[Mailliw]

Check this out. I like the over/under concept. Many of these concepts could be modified to rail use and be an awesome option.
zephyr seat is a lie-flat airline seat for economy class travelers (designboom.com)

Yes, I think something like the Zephyr seat would be a great starting point for a modern version of the Slumbercoach. Lie-flat seats would be a waste of vertical space.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I know that is a conclusion we always jump too, but I wonder if it's really true. People riding in coach on LD trains already sleep in a room with up to 60 people, often with a stranger shoulder to shoulder. Same with overnight flights, crammed in with hundreds of people. And we have certainly seen with airplanes that people will put up with a lot to get from point A to point B.

I think a lot of the crowd that takes coach on LD trains would be hip to the European model of sleepers, especially if they were way more affordable than getting a roomette. I've had many conversations with coach travelers over the years that have said as much. When I've traveled overseas I always run into Americans traveling the same way, and I've heard many say they wish they could travel that way in America. I'm not sure why we always assume something like this wouldn't fly in America. We seem to be a culture of if it's not the way we currently do it then people won't buy in to it. I think there's a good chance that if you build it they will come.

Excellent Post!

 

[sttom]

I know that is a conclusion we always jump too, but I wonder if it's really true. People riding in coach on LD trains already sleep in a room with up to 60 people, often with a stranger shoulder to shoulder. Same with overnight flights, crammed in with hundreds of people. And we have certainly seen with airplanes that people will put up with a lot to get from point A to point B.

I think a lot of the crowd that takes coach on LD trains would be hip to the European model of sleepers, especially if they were way more affordable than getting a roomette. I've had many conversations with coach travelers over the years that have said as much. When I've traveled overseas I always run into Americans traveling the same way, and I've heard many say they wish they could travel that way in America. I'm not sure why we always assume something like this wouldn't fly in America. We seem to be a culture of if it's not the way we currently do it then people won't buy in to it. I think there's a good chance that if you build it they will come.

I for one don't use Amtrak on long distance trips because it is cost prohibitive. For example, for me and my partner to go visit his parents in Denver on the Zephyr, the one way cost of a roomette is the same as round trip on Southwest. Same thing with visiting my dad in Oregon. The one way cost of the roomette would be similar to a round trip flight. I want to do both of these by train someday, but I am accepting that these will be once in a life time trips. I would prefer it if this wasn't the case. And if that meant a lie flat seat or a section bed that wasn't 100% enclosed, I would be fine with that. I care more about being able to sleep reasonably close to normal and the fares are competitive with flying. If I wanted 100% private ground transportation, I would drive.

 

[me_little_me]

A big advantage of superliners (and double-deckers of any sort) is the reduced length of the train for the same number of passengers (and therefore less of a problem at shorter stations). If the superliners were replaced by single level cars, Amtrak would have to run TWO trains a day on the LD routes and we know how much people here would object to that!

 

[toddinde]

The future long distance train is Amtrak’s most exciting opportunity. If you read the posts, it’s amazing how everyone’s vision for the service is a little different. Think about that for a minute. It points to the amazing strength of the long distance passenger train. It’s something different and of value to everyone. To some, it’s a land cruise. To most, it’s some form of transportation. A minority of customers travel from end to end. Most get on or off at intermediate points. Aside from a few trains like the 20th Century Limited, this has always been the reality of railroad passenger service. The California Zephyr was the best example of that. It was a luxury land cruise for some. It was also basic, economical transportation for others, with a variety of food and beverage options for all. We have a new generation of travelers who want to bring their backpacks and bikes with them. Things are certainly more casual today, but everyone still wants quality. I think the leg rest coach is still the backbone of the service. The current roomettes and bedrooms are a reasonable design as well. There are lessons to learn from European railroads, but I’m skeptical that the couchette would ever catch on here. America is a supremely beautiful land. Some kind of dome/sightseer lounge type car is essential. A dining car with a wide range of choices and extended hours is also a great idea. Trains must be accessible, so single level may be the order of the day, particularly in a country with a large senior population. Multiple frequencies on existing routes, new routes that feed them, more through way busses, and marketing. The corridors will develop naturally on top of a robust long distance network. Time to move on this.

 

[Deni]

Excellent Post!

Thanks!

 

[Mailliw]

The more I lthink some version of the roomette is probably the best North American answer to European couchettes. Nightjet's new couchette pods would provide the privacy Americans like, but they have no day mode. The cost just needs to come down, one way of doing this is more rolling stock with roomettes.

 

[Willbridge]

A big advantage of superliners (and double-deckers of any sort) is the reduced length of the train for the same number of passengers (and therefore less of a problem at shorter stations). If the superliners were replaced by single level cars, Amtrak would have to run TWO trains a day on the LD routes and we know how much people here would object to that!

I've been thinking about train lengths, too. Double-stopping might become more frequent. The walk to the dining car would be longer (sorry to bring up the matter of food). US railways used to try to seat the long-haul coach passengers closest to the dining car to overcome that problem. I realize that Amtrak has a more vicious solution.

 

[Steve4031]

They used to double or triple stop with 18 car trains back in the 1970s.

 

[Mailliw]

Something like the bilevel cars Nightjet inherited from CityNightLine might be a good basis for Superliner replacement, at least as far as sleeping cars go. ADA rooms could go on the intermediate level and passengers can pass through the car without going up or down stairs. I don't see how this design works as a dining or lounge car. For a seated coach I guess you go with a compartments instead of an open saloon.

 

[joelkfla]

Something like the bilevel cars Nightjet inherited from CityNightLine might be a good basis for Superliner replacement, at least as far as sleeping cars go. ADA rooms could go on the intermediate level and passengers can pass through the car without going up or down stairs. I don't see how this design works as a dining or lounge car. For a seated coach I guess you go with a compartments instead of an open saloon.

Those are the ones I mentioned on another thread that I had seen on a YouTube trip report. Each stairway up or down accesses 2 cabins: 1 to the left & 1 to the right, so the stairways are 2 cabins apart.

 

[Steve4031]

Here is a YouTube video link.


What I like is that in the room it’s possible to have the beds down and still sit in the chairs to look out the window. I’m not sure how comfortable those seats are for a day in the room on the Zephyr viewing the Rockies. And the winds are too small. The table is attached to a wall between two small windows. A window on BBC a superliner or viewliner is panoramic compared to these windows.

It’s obvious these cars were designed for shorter overnight trips like the old night owl.

 

[jiml]

It’s obvious these cars were designed for shorter overnight trips like the old night owl.

Which sums up 90% of European overnight train trips. It's the distances involved that require North American overnight trains to be rolling hotels. If one took the Zephyr route and segmented it with three separate trains you'd have a representative comparison and sleepers like these would work.

 

[Mailliw]

At least to me the deluxe compartments look bigger than Amtrak's bedrooms.

 

[jpakala]

My problem with roomettes is that they are the size of a double Slumbercoach room for many times the cost, or actually smaller on Superliners because the ceiling is lower. And except for the Viewliner wheelchair-accessible bedroom (a fantastic accommodation), the bedrooms are inferior, in part because you can hardly squeeze between the sink and the lower bed, the linens & blankets are flimsy by comparison, and the bedroom chair as well.

 

[jis]

One of the consequences of trying to fit entire bedroom within a single module has led to this unfortunate layout. If you look at the layout of bedrooms in traditional 10-6s you find that the toilet in alternate bedrooms project into and occupy space in what would be the "module” for the adjacent bedroom, thus allowing better packing of the rooms without infringing too much on circulation space on the floor.

This is not possible when all components of a bedroom must be fit strictly within a single module.

 

[joelkfla]

One of the consequences of trying to fit entire bedroom within a single module has led to this unfortunate layout. If you look at the layout of bedrooms in traditional 10-6s you find hat the toilet in alternate bedrooms project into and occupy space in what would be the "module for the adjacent bedroom, thus allowing better packing of the rooms without infringing too much on circulation space on the floor.

This is not possible when all components of a bedroom must be fit strictly within a single module.

I can't quite read the label on the rooms between the "bedrooms". Does that also say "bedroom"? Are those singles as opposed to doubles?

 

[jis]

I can't quite read the label on the rooms between the "bedrooms". Does that also say "bedroom"? Are those singles as opposed to doubles?

Yes. They are all doubles.

The roomettes are single, the bedrooms are double. See for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_series_(railcar)

 

[railiner]

The Pullman Company notated them as either "Beds Lengthwise", or "Beds Crosswise" Double Bedrooms. The next step up was a Compartment, followed by a Drawing Room, or a Master Room, and then a Bedroom Suite, or sometimes a Compartment/Bedroom Suite...

 

[NYP2NFL01]

I like the idea of an enclosed shower in the en-suite bathroom. I was never too keen about Amtrak’s “shower/toilet” concept in the bedrooms (Superliner and Viewliner).

 

[me_little_me]

I like the idea of an enclosed shower in the en-suite bathroom. I was never too keen about Amtrak’s “shower/toilet” concept in the bedrooms (Superliner and Viewliner).

A lot of RVs are like that.

 

[Cal]

I agree that there is a need for coach on just about every other long distance train. But I stand by the belief that an all-sleeper train is suitable for the AutoTrain only. A similar approach to business class on international airlines, but made much cheaper (ie: no entertainment system, mechanical recline vs electric, no weight saving requirements, etc) IN ADDITION TO restoring the full dining experience would make this route the flagship of Amtrak. Then, on the supposed "real" flagship, the EB, add this class of service to the existing fleet.

I think that there is a real need to bridge the gap between nostalgia, modern demands, and attracting the next generation of clients. Of course, this is all dependent on reliable performance, and consistent onboard service, and firing bad employees.

I agree. And making new long distance cars that keep the comfort and space of the current ones, while making them modernized and up to par with some of the good European sleepers would be good.

 

[Cal]

A big advantage of superliners (and double-deckers of any sort) is the reduced length of the train for the same number of passengers (and therefore less of a problem at shorter stations). If the superliners were replaced by single level cars, Amtrak would have to run TWO trains a day on the LD routes and we know how much people here would object to that!

And a personal reason that I like double deckers is that they are simply so much more impressive. Yea seeing the viewliners pull up is nice, but seeing the double decker, steel superliners pull up is so cool. And of course there is better sightseering from the top floor, and better design options such as a cafe on the bottom and lounge on the top as in the sightseer lounge.

 

[Cal]

The future long distance train is Amtrak’s most exciting opportunity. If you read the posts, it’s amazing how everyone’s vision for the service is a little different. Think about that for a minute. It points to the amazing strength of the long distance passenger train. It’s something different and of value to everyone. To some, it’s a land cruise. To most, it’s some form of transportation. A minority of customers travel from end to end. Most get on or off at intermediate points. Aside from a few trains like the 20th Century Limited, this has always been the reality of railroad passenger service. The California Zephyr was the best example of that. It was a luxury land cruise for some. It was also basic, economical transportation for others, with a variety of food and beverage options for all. We have a new generation of travelers who want to bring their backpacks and bikes with them. Things are certainly more casual today, but everyone still wants quality. I think the leg rest coach is still the backbone of the service. The current roomettes and bedrooms are a reasonable design as well. There are lessons to learn from European railroads, but I’m skeptical that the couchette would ever catch on here. America is a supremely beautiful land. Some kind of dome/sightseer lounge type car is essential. A dining car with a wide range of choices and extended hours is also a great idea. Trains must be accessible, so single level may be the order of the day, particularly in a country with a large senior population. Multiple frequencies on existing routes, new routes that feed them, more through way busses, and marketing. The corridors will develop naturally on top of a robust long distance network. Time to move on this.

Well written.

I personally think that keeping the basics of what we have today, while making it bit more luxurious and and modernized would be the best. I think they should keep offering two, or three room types. However make them a bit bigger and more premium. Maybe a little nicer finishing's, better details, etc. Make them truly, a little hotel room on wheels. With a single, double, and three-four person option.

As for coach, I like the idea of a lie-flat coach. I think that keeping basic coach is fine, but adding a middle class which would be a lie-flat coach is a great idea. Something that would basically be the new business class.

As for dining, keep the same basic layout as of now would be fine. Just make it seem like a more modern restaurant, and (if possible...) make the food a bit higher quality, and (if possible...) more options.

Yes, we NEED a lounge/sightseer car. I think keeping the main design of the current sightseer lounge is good. But again, making it more modernized. Make the café more inviting than the steel thing we have now. The lounge chairs, maybe a little bit bigger and comfier. And only have tables on the downstairs. The top would be all lounge seating with small tables for snacks and drinks. Also they gotta make some of the offerings better, the burgers aren't appealing...

This would make the service more comparable to the service on European sleeper trains. While keeping it good for a three day trip. And still keeping it public transport, but it being able to be a land cruise. Keeping a double decker design is what I'd like. Probably having stairs like those of the California Cars on one side. And that area being a little coffee/juice/fruit place. With also some ice and maybe even a bathroom.

I think what we have now is already appealing, it's attracting a good amount of people. Just optimize it. Make it even more attracting.