Texas High Speed Rail

[MARC Rider]

Just saw this on the web. Wonder what it means.

https://www.rtands.com/track-constr...-but-residents-and-landowners-demand-answers/

 

[jis]

I spoke to someone from the Texas ARP who is extremely familiar with the Texas Central happenings and knows several people in the organization, at the RPA Fall Council Meeting in Kansas City a few days back. He basically told me that Texas Central is in hibernation and may or may not come out of it depending on how a few unspecified things turn out.

 

[GDRRiley]

not surprised I expect they'll get bought out if they can't move forward for the land they own.

 

[cirdan]

I spoke to someone from the Texas ARP who is extremely familiar with the Texas Central happenings and knows several people in the organization, at the RPA Fall Council Meeting in Kansas City a few days back. He basically told me that Texas Central is in hibernation and may or may not come out of it depending on how a few unspecified things turn out.

Not paying property taxes (if those reports are true) doesn't sound like a sustainable way of hibernating assets.

 

[jis]

Not paying property taxes (if those reports are true) doesn't sound like a sustainable way of hibernating assets.

Maybe it is just wishful thinking on the part of some rail enthusiasts, only to be blown apart as is most commonly the case with most such rail projects

 

[frequentflyer]

Brightline, please take this over, there must be a business case for it.

https://thetexan.news/landowner-fil...l-seeking-answers-on-high-speed-rails-future/
At least we will get an answer one way or another.

 

[Anderson]

Brightline, please take this over, there must be a business case for it.

https://thetexan.news/landowner-fil...l-seeking-answers-on-high-speed-rails-future/
At least we will get an answer one way or another.

I agree that it sounds like this would be a decent project for Brightline. The issue is the needed capex, which if I'm Brightline I probably don't want to swallow the interest costs on right now.

Edit: And of course, I'm wondering about what has already been acquired and whether there's any way to significantly cut the costs ($30bn is getting to the point of being unaffordable for a mostly-rural line).

 

[cirdan]

I feel Brightline should at least push to complete the line to Tampa before shopping for further projects.

That said, if Texas Central cannot make the Texas line work, I doubt that Brightline have any cards up their sleeve that would create a significantly different situation.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Pretty sure Brightline could acquire it and sit on the project for 10 or so years while they land the plane on both FL and LV. Don’t believe TC has any debt and also has very little owned property.

 

[jis]

Brightline, please take this over, there must be a business case for it.

https://thetexan.news/landowner-fil...l-seeking-answers-on-high-speed-rails-future/
At least we will get an answer one way or another.

Brightline's current financial profile makes any such quite unlikely at present, unless someone other than them agrees to foot the bill perhaps. Another way to say it is that they have too much on their plate already.

 

[west point]

It may be the only way for Brightline to be involved would be for them to become a minority partner for a full build out. Not a good idea. For corporate safety probably Fortress would form a subsiditary to enter into the construction to keep Brightline separate.

 

[jis]

It may be the only way for Brightline to be involved would be for them to become a minority partner for a full build out. Not a good idea. For corporate safety probably Fortress would form a subsiditary to enter into the construction to keep Brightline separate.

Why would Fortress care? Do they own or plan to own property in Texas?

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Brightline's current financial profile makes any such quite unlikely at present, unless someone other than them agrees to foot the bill perhaps. Another way to say it is that they have too much on their plate already.

Any idea what number of riders they would need in order to break even on the existing operation in Florida? Just curious

 

[jis]

Any idea what number of riders they would need in order to break even on the existing operation in Florida? Just curious

The numbers you are looking for may be gleaned from this article and the bond issue document pointed to from it. Finding the numbers is tedious, so I will leave it to you...

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...ne-details-included-in-950-million-bond-sale/

 

[Anderson]

The numbers you are looking for may be gleaned from this article and the bond issue document pointed to from it. Finding the numbers is tedious, so I will leave it to you...

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...ne-details-included-in-950-million-bond-sale/

https://emma.msrb.org/P31404627-P31092118-P31501001.pdfHere's the bond disclosure. It's more complete, a lot more to pour through, and a lot of the numbers are "Miami-Orlando" and not either "Miami-West Palm Beach" or "Miami-Disney". Obviously, a lot has changed over the years, but the big disclosures from the MSRB are your best bet to look through this stuff and figure out what's what.


Edit to add: With the more complete numbers, the whole bundle of Miami-Orlando is rolled together and I can't really adjust for smaller operations.

 

[cirdan]

Pretty sure Brightline could acquire it and sit on the project for 10 or so years while they land the plane on both FL and LV. Don’t believe TC has any debt and also has very little owned property.

Not so sure.

Doesn't eminent domain bring with it the responsibility to actually realize the project you leveraged the eminent domain with. And that within a defined timeframe.

If not people could be going around forcibly buying one another's land willy nilly.

 

[Anderson]

Not so sure.

Doesn't eminent domain bring with it the responsibility to actually realize the project you leveraged the eminent domain with. And that within a defined timeframe.

If not people could be going around forcibly buying one another's land willy nilly.

Well, only certain companies and for certain purposes. For example, I cannot take over my neighbor's yard to put in a swimming pool.

Not a US example, but there was something of a scandal in Canada when Mirabel Airport was abandoned - the government had acquired a huge amount of land for the project (roughly 400 sq km), and in both 1985 and 2006 they allowed some of the land purchase transactions to be reversed.

Of course, the question would get thornier if it was looking like the project wasn't going to get fully funded/completed at the time of the eminent domain taking. At some point the question of the land being taken under false pretenses would seem to come up.

 

[cirdan]

For example, I cannot take over my neighbor's yard to put in a swimming pool.

I think that one of the conditions to eminent domain must be that there is public utility. You cannot build a personal swimming pool on your neighbor's land, but maybe if the city decided it needed to put a public swimming pool there, and they could demonstrate that after duly considering alternative locations, that this was found to be the most suitable location, then I think they could very well eminent domain it.

I'm not sure if a private corporation willing to build a public swimming pool could do that. I guess not. I suppose transportation infrastructure constitutes a special case here. But I do believe that it only works because the railroad will provide a public service. If a private corporation wanted to build a private fun train to entertain its own managers and shareholders, but nobody else, then I don't think they could use eminent domain.

 

[Anderson]

I think that one of the conditions to eminent domain must be that there is public utility. You cannot build a personal swimming pool on your neighbor's land, but maybe if the city decided it needed to put a public swimming pool there, and they could demonstrate that after duly considering alternative locations, that this was found to be the most suitable location, then I think they could very well eminent domain it.

I'm not sure if a private corporation willing to build a public swimming pool could do that. I guess not. I suppose transportation infrastructure constitutes a special case here. But I do believe that it only works because the railroad will provide a public service. If a private corporation wanted to build a private fun train to entertain its own managers and shareholders, but nobody else, then I don't think they could use eminent domain.

So, Kelo opened the door to a lot of takings for various uses, but I think the government usually still has to be the "actor" in most cases (utilities are usually exempt, and I think railroads may generally be as well). So Public Pools, LLC probably couldn't take the land, but Sample City could take the land to convey to Public Pools, LLC.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Not so sure.

Doesn't eminent domain bring with it the responsibility to actually realize the project you leveraged the eminent domain with. And that within a defined timeframe.

If not people could be going around forcibly buying one another's land willy nilly.

Wasn’t saying they needed to acquire land yet, but holding the right to exercise eminent domain was the main point here, they would only do so once the funding had been confirmed. It would just let them clear the path so that the legal battle did not end up being repeated

 

[Btcaub]

Haven’t seen any news or announcements on this project in 9-12 months.

 

[marcoloco]

Haven’t seen any news or announcements on this project in 9-12 months.

Just like the first time in 1990, Southwest Airlines successfully lobbied again against this project and it's DEAD. Southwest airlines made sure it didn't happen.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Well googling Texas Central Railway yielded these articles. Take them for what it is as these were written not long ago.

https://www.kxxv.com/brazos/debate-...s-speeds-up-as-legislation-seeks-transparency
https://www.kbtx.com/2023/06/09/pro...s-transparency-high-speed-train-project-fail/

 

[frequentflyer]

Just like the first time in 1990, Southwest Airlines successfully lobbied again against this project and it's DEAD. Southwest airlines made sure it didn't happen.

Wrong, SWA did not fight against this project, they did the first one. Gates at Lover are at a premium and SWA does not offer the 30 minute shuttle from DAL-HOU anymore. SWA even came out in support of this iteration of the plan.

You want a villain to be mad at, be made at the group that brought this plan up apparently without a secured funding source. Pixel dust and Unicorns are not a good business plan.

 

[frequentflyer]

Well googling Texas Central Railway yielded these articles. Take them for what it is as these were written not long ago.

https://www.kxxv.com/brazos/debate-...s-speeds-up-as-legislation-seeks-transparency
https://www.kbtx.com/2023/06/09/pro...s-transparency-high-speed-train-project-fail/

"
"We'd love to see high speed rail within our within our state within our country at some point,

That future is unknown because the company has yet to apply for a construction permit and Judge Fauth says it's nearly impossible to get in contact with them.

“Phone calls to the company go unanswered, un-returned mail and so forth," he explained at recent Transportation Committee hearing.

Now, Judge Fauth and other landowners are taking the issue to Austin and advocating their stance in front of lawmakers.

They hope HB2357 is passed — this is a bill that would provide transparency from the company.

The acting CEO of TCR also appeared before the committee."


The shadiness of this Texas Central group has done more damage than anything else to the idea of HSR in Texas. That is why if one wants HSR in Texas one better hope Brightline gets on board.