THE NEW MENUS ARE HERE! THE NEW MENUS ARE HERE!

[neroden]

I think I won't complain about this. It'll reduce the profitability of the dining cars a hell of a lot, though, as more people "pack in". You can charge for a good selection of good meals but not for this cut-back mess... And it'll damage ridership and revenue a lot too (more in sleeper, but also in coach).

Maybe this is part of a clever plan to demonstrate to Mica that cutting dining car service will make it lose more money. If so, I think we should assist Amtrak by making sure that it loses more money.

That would require

No, it wouldn't. Look up the word "more", Paulus. It's in the dictionary.

Providing reduced service by cutting the menu gives approximately the same costs and less revenue. Ergo, more losses.

Make food service below acceptable levels, watch the revenues on the train drop faster than the costs drop. It is irrelevant whether the service runs at a loss or at a profit, the point is the marginal change.

Something roughly like a dining car is simply something you have to have once your runtime runs across multiple meals. One alternative is food delivered to the train at stops, but it only works if the train runs on time. The other alternative is meal stops, which have already effectively reappeared at Albany NY. It's hard to do those if the train doesn't run on time, too.

Yes, dining car service is a vital loss leader, and none of the numbers you waved about change that. Remove the service, watch ridership and revenue drop in both sleeper and coach, by very large amounts.

I'm not asking for flowers, I'm asking to be able to get a balanced meal.

Is there room for revenue/cost improvements in the dining cars? Yes. You aren't going to get there by cutting the menu. You might get there by (a) eliminating the hours spent doing paperwork and (b) keeping the dining car open more hours per day. Same labor costs, happier customers (==will pay more), more customers.

Could you satisfy the requirement for food with a *massively* upgraded cafe car? Sure. That doesn't seem to be happening either.

 

[MiRider]

I don't understand all of the angst over the new menus - it looks like the same choices I've seen for the past 3 years.

No 'chef inspired' entrees anymore but I don't see anything to complain about - I know I'll get a beatdown for saying that.

At least the lunch entrees are also available for dinner and pancakes and french toast are available at the same time and not just in certain directions.

I enjoyed the chef inspired entrees a lot but I can live without them.

 

[the_traveler]

pancakes and french toast are available at the same time and not just in certain directions.

No. If you look between those listings, it says "OR" - it's one or the other based on the train - not both at the same time.

 

[neroden]

I don't understand all of the angst over the new menus - it looks like the same choices I've seen for the past 3 years.

It's strictly fewer choices. The salad's been deleted. And it's not actually clear what the remaining choices are, if ACS-64 is correct.

 

[lstone19]

Something roughly like a dining car is simply something you have to have once your runtime runs across multiple meals. One alternative is food delivered to the train at stops, but it only works if the train runs on time. The other alternative is meal stops, which have already effectively reappeared at Albany NY. It's hard to do those if the train doesn't run on time, too.

Yes, dining car service is a vital loss leader, and none of the numbers you waved about change that. Remove the service, watch ridership and revenue drop in both sleeper and coach, by very large amounts.

That is the key point. Food service financial performance for a train cannot be assessed the same way as for a standalone restaurant. A railroad dining car is not a restaurant you can just walk into, eat, and be on your way. It has a limited customer base as it is dependent on you already being on the train. Its presence may have been what made that train a viable form of transportation for you so it is entitled to some of the transportation revenue. Its finances simply cannot be divorced from the transportation revenue of the train.

 

[neroden]

Attacks on the viability of dining car food as an alternative for all passengers, which menu cuts like this are, should be considered attacks on long-distance (long enough to run over mealtimes) train service. And while I have some sympathy for the "why are we running the transcontinentals" point of view, I think losing NY-Chicago or NY-Florida service would clearly be terrible.

I'm totally open to radical, wild new ideas for better onboard dining service. But this is just mindless cutting-for-the-sake-of-cutting which will hurt the bottom line.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Those that aren't concerned by this idiotic Financial Exvellence program

Might enjoy eating limited choice Denny's type food that will set you back $45-$100 a day on LD trips if sleeping car passengers have to pay for their meals on top of paying several hundred or even thousands of dollars for their bare bones rooms that will have fewer and fewer amenities as this cost cutting mania spreads @ 60 Mass!

I won't be among them, I will return to riding coach on short trips and taking my food and drink and will look @ Mega Bus and even flying on long trips!

Joe Boardman and his Executive Team need to get out of 60 Mass, anfcatch LD Trains in Revenue Sleepers and talk with Customers, not ride around in Beech Grove with their own chef and gourmet meals!

If this sounds like the sky I'd falling to you, so be it, but No Business ever improved itself by cutting customer service and amenities, this kind of management by bean counting results in loss of revenue, huge losses and replacement of the management team by a different group with bettervideas!

You could look it up! Why try to run Amtrak like the Airlines which specialize in gouging customers and making travel so uncomfortable!

 

[Bob Dylan]

Here's an excellent idea Boss:Let's cut nickel and dime items,eliminate luxury amenities, mess up the food and beverage service on the LD Trains. Raise Prices while decreasing OTP and

Watch as more people flock to ride our Trains!

It'll make you look like a hero to the budget hawk morons, er statesmen in Congress and well all get a Bonus just like the people @ the VA!

What could possibly go wrong using the Airline Model for Amtrak! Less for more, what a great idea eh!

 

[Paulus]

I think I won't complain about this. It'll reduce the profitability of the dining cars a hell of a lot, though, as more people "pack in". You can charge for a good selection of good meals but not for this cut-back mess... And it'll damage ridership and revenue a lot too (more in sleeper, but also in coach).

Maybe this is part of a clever plan to demonstrate to Mica that cutting dining car service will make it lose more money. If so, I think we should assist Amtrak by making sure that it loses more money.

That would require

No, it wouldn't. Look up the word "more", Paulus. It's in the dictionary.

Look up the word profit. Also in the dictionary.

Something roughly like a dining car is simply something you have to have once your runtime runs across multiple meals.

No, it's not. You personally might like having a dining car instead of a cafe car, or ordering a pizza delivered at the next stop, but that does not mean it is somehow a requirement of service; the fact that the Palmetto and quite a large number of corridor trains run across multiple meals without having a dining car does rather lend merit to the suggestion that they do not. Do recall that the majority of ridership, even on long distance trains, is not running across multiple meals and most people are quite willing to have cafe meals rather than requiring a full service sit down meal experience.

Yes, dining car service is a vital loss leader, and none of the numbers you waved about change that. Remove the service, watch ridership and revenue drop in both sleeper and coach, by very large amounts.

The impact on coach, which barely uses it beyond the level of a cafe car to begin with, will be completely negligible. If sleeper declines, good riddance to it. Food and beverage direct costs amounted to 73.8% of all sleeper revenue for Fiscal Year 2012. If the loss of dining cars means that there is not one single sleeper passenger, ever again, on Amtrak, Amtrak will likely be ahead of the game financially. The whole point of a loss leader is that you take a small loss in order to get people in the door for something with much larger profits. This is not a small loss. This is damn near every dollar brought in.

Is there room for revenue/cost improvements in the dining cars? Yes. You aren't going to get there by cutting the menu. You might get there by (a) eliminating the hours spent doing paperwork and (b) keeping the dining car open more hours per day. Same labor costs, happier customers (==will pay more), more customers.

Could you satisfy the requirement for food with a *massively* upgraded cafe car? Sure. That doesn't seem to be happening either.

The vast majority of customers currently are not actually paying for food however and it is doubtful that having the dining car open a few more hours of the day would allow the, quite frankly, massive increases in fares that are required.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

At least the lunch entrees are also available for dinner...

I just noticed that too: "DINNER (ONLY) MAIN COURSES." Has that always been there? Have we always been allowed to order lunch entrees at dinner, and I just missed it? I don't think I've ever even heard of that happening.

As for charging sleeping car pax for the dining car...

If the food was similar in quality and tatse to what I'd buy at other restaurants, for the same prices, I actually wouldn't mind. If it was similar to Subway or Chipotle (i.e. Amtrak farmed their dining cars out to those vendors), I might even consider it an improvement to Amtrak's service, even though I was paying more.

However, there's simply no way I'd pay Amtrak's prices for Amtrak's food. For most of my trips, it would be equivalent to a 25-50% rate hike. There's just no way I'd be able to afford it, and the food isn't good enough to pay that much.

I think a lot of passengers would probably feel the same way. Eventually, I wonder if the dining cars would be virtually empty.

Alternatively... if they didn't have to serve so many customers, perhaps they could slow down and actually prepare more "real food" onboard? I'd consider paying Amtrak's prices if the food was actually freshly prepared from fresh ingredients.

 

[Paulus]

What could possibly go wrong using the Airline Model for Amtrak! Less for more, what a great idea eh!

You mean the airline model that has steadily resulted in significantly lower fares, higher passenger numbers, and higher profits for the airline industry? The same one that's resulted in €10 fares between Paris and Marseille on the OuiGo TGVs? Not a bad model to follow. Here's the dirty secret that everyone whining about service reductions on airlines keeps forgetting: You prefer the lack of service. You prefer the loss of leg room. And you prefer all the other miseries because you like having lower fares instead. The airlines are just following consumer demand for cheaper travel. Want better service? Pay for the upgrade to business or first class. "In 1974, it was illegal for an airline to charge less than $1,442 in inflation-adjusted dollars for a flight between New York City and Los Angeles. On Kayak, just now, I found one for $278.". Similarly, if you want the Pullman treatment, pay for it.

 

[Steve4031]

And on the first crossover from track one to track two in order for 49 to overtake a freight west of Albany, the salad bar would be on the floor. Lol.

 

[Groundpounder]

What could possibly go wrong using the Airline Model for Amtrak! Less for more, what a great idea eh!

You mean the airline model that has steadily resulted in significantly lower fares, higher passenger numbers, and higher profits for the airline industry? The same one that's resulted in €10 fares between Paris and Marseille on the OuiGo TGVs? Not a bad model to follow. Here's the dirty secret that everyone whining about service reductions on airlines keeps forgetting: You prefer the lack of service. You prefer the loss of leg room. And you prefer all the other miseries because you like having lower fares instead. The airlines are just following consumer demand for cheaper travel. Want better service? Pay for the upgrade to business or first class. "In 1974, it was illegal for an airline to charge less than $1,442 in inflation-adjusted dollars for a flight between New York City and Los Angeles. On Kayak, just now, I found one for $278.". Similarly, if you want the Pullman treatment, pay for it.

+1000

If people buying airline tickets wanted better service and were willing to pay higher fares, the airlines would oblige. Instead they need to make sure their airline shows up as the cheapest when people are searching for flights on orbitz. They then make up the costs by charging for food, checked baggage, etc. It's a free market, and the airlines give us what we want. Don't ***** about the service when you just spent less than $100 on a ticket from New York to Miami

 

[MiRider]

pancakes and french toast are available at the same time and not just in certain directions.

No. If you look between those listings, it says "OR" - it's one or the other based on the train - not both at the same time.

Ah, I didn't see the -or- but, then again, I really don't care.

The new menus are just fine with me <shrug>

 

[MiRider]

I don't understand all of the angst over the new menus - it looks like the same choices I've seen for the past 3 years.

It's strictly fewer choices. The salad's been deleted. And it's not actually clear what the remaining choices are, if ACS-64 is correct.

I'm sure you can get a (or two) garden/side salad if you want one.

The remaining choices are quite clear if you look at the menus on amtrak.com.

Links to the new 5/14 menus are on each individual route's page.

This is not the enormous cost cutting change that some are making it out to be.

Increasing efficiency, simplifying, and reducing waste are responsible business behaviors.

If something is gone, there's a good reason for it.

No doubt, end of run inventories had more to do with the few changes made to the menus than congressional committees did.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

The remaining choices are quite clear if you look at the menus on amtrak.com.

You call this "quite clear"? Yes, it says "ask your server", but that just causes more time to be wasted when they want to turn the tables quickly.

Specialty Sandwich.............................................. $10.00

A delicious offering for those looking for a

hearty sandwich, served with a dill pickle

and kettle chips. Please ask your server for

today’s selection. (490-733 cal.)

 

[jis]

Frankly I find this baffling. On the one hand everyone complains incessantly about the lack of choice and variation. On the other hand they want everything spelled out precisely on the menu in the five items so there is no room for any variation. Somewhere in there there seems to be some sort of a cognitive disconnection. In my experience order taking is not the most time consuming part of the process anyway. It is food prep and delivery. So why worry so endlessly about something that is not really a critical issue?

 

[Train person]

Similarly, if you want the Pullman treatment, pay for it.

People already are. A random check on the CZ over the next week shows coach fares for around $200-300 and a bedroom for $1700. Is $1700 enough to deserve some kind of "Pullman" treatment? It should be enough to at least allow some form of enhanced experience, same as if you paid for Business or First on an airline. I doubt the airline would consider charging extra for meals in first.

 

[Train person]

Frankly I find this baffling. On the one hand everyone complains incessantly about the lack of choice and variation. On the other hand they want everything spelled out precisely on the menu in the five items so there is no room for any variation. Somewhere in there there seems to be some sort of a cognitive disconnection. In my experience order taking is not the most time consuming part of the process anyway. It is food prep and delivery. So why worry so endlessly about something that is not really a critical issue?

It's a bit poor that a menu of five items can't even list all of the 5 choices though. Then again I suppose that seeing as nearly everyone who travels on Amtrak has some form of food allergy, food weirdness or just is bog standard moaning vegetarian then they want to know what they can or can't eat.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Boardman said he planned to elminate the food service deficit and this is a first step.

The menu cuts are going to increase the food service deficit. Period.

Mica needs to be removed from Congress (or at least from his committee chairmanship). This is all his doing.

He HAS been removed from his committee chairmanship. Already.

He's still on the subcommittee and still capable of making trouble.

 

[Paulus]

Similarly, if you want the Pullman treatment, pay for it.

People already are. A random check on the CZ over the next week shows coach fares for around $200-300 and a bedroom for $1700. Is $1700 enough to deserve some kind of "Pullman" treatment? It should be enough to at least allow some form of enhanced experience, same as if you paid for Business or First on an airline. I doubt the airline would consider charging extra for meals in first.

Firstly, bedrooms are for up to three people, so adjust the price accordingly. Second, you are pulling a last minute fare, of course it will look high. The last coach seat on a plane will be quite high as well. Go with the average sleeper passenger fare instead if you want to look at what people are already paying.

 

[Ryan]

So what is the average sleeper passenger fare paid?

 

[Train person]

Firstly, bedrooms are for up to three people, so adjust the price accordingly. Second, you are pulling a last minute fare, of course it will look high. The last coach seat on a plane will be quite high as well. Go with the average sleeper passenger fare instead if you want to look at what people are already paying.

It doesn't look high, it is high. Even a roomette was just under $800 So should someone who pays that fare for a bedroom get a better level of service than someone who pays $1000 less for booking early?The point is you were saying people want cheap fares. That's called coach. It's a choice. It's generally also the norm that passengers/customers paying higher rates for enhanced travel get better services and enhancements.

 

[Train person]

So what is the average sleeper passenger fare paid?

Don't know, but it's normally higher if two passengers are travelling......!!

 

[MiRider]

The remaining choices are quite clear if you look at the menus on amtrak.com.

You call this "quite clear"? Yes, it says "ask your server", but that just causes more time to be wasted when they want to turn the tables quickly.

Specialty Sandwich.............................................. $10.00

A delicious offering for those looking for a

hearty sandwich, served with a dill pickle

and kettle chips. Please ask your server for

today’s selection. (490-733 cal.)

It's quite clear to me when one is wondering about what specific items have been removed from the menus.

Obviously, there's a specialty sandwich available.