Train coach seats around the world?

[GlobalistPotato]

Okay, so Amtrak's coach seats are probably the most comfortable economy class seats in the US.

But how does Amtrak's coach seats compare to coach seats on trains around the world?

My impression is that Amtrak's seats are actually wider and have more legroom than the ones on other trains.

Prove me if I'm wrong...

Also, I'm talking about "coach" or "economy" class, not Business or First Class.

From the pictures I've seen, the "standard class" seats on the Shinkansen look no bigger than airline coach seats...

For instance, on the 700 series Shinkansen...

E4_std_lower_reserved_Sendai_20020825.jpg

I haven't seen any pictures of the coach class on the TGV, Eurostar, ICE, or other High Speed trains.

But then there's the conventional speed trains...

 

[guest]

Just got back from a trip to Europe where I rode the ICE across Germany. Granted, I was in 1st class, but still, the seats are without exception in better condition than those on Amtrak. They may seem smaller, but they're ergonomically designed (like a Herman Miller chair) in ways that the Amseats can't compare with. Even conventional bench seats in 2nd class on Swiss commuter trains are more comfortable. However, Amtrak seats are still far more comfortable than any airline seats (oy gevalt!!)

 

[fredandgingermad]

On trains in the UK, for economy the seats normally have a pitch around 19" and can't be less than 17".. they're not that comfortable. Some train operators are better than others (theres several in England alone)

 

[LWBaxter]

Amtrak long distance seats are not as comfortable as the seats used by US western carriers prior to Amtrak. The Amtrak seats have a leg rest similar to the ATSF seats and the same 52" pitch as the ATSF seats, and the Sleepy Hollow seats used by UP, NP, GN, etc. The main problem with the Amtrak seats; is they do not recline far enough back due to the use of seat back tray tables. VIA day/nighter seats use tray tables that fold out of the arm rest like some first class airline seats. I have not ridden overnight in a VIA day/nighter so I can't comment on their comfort.

LWB

 

[PerRock]

The Current Eurostar (TMST/Class 373) seats in economy didn't seem much better then any airline seat I had been in over here in the states (some airlines even better) Which I kinda was surprised about as over here we tend to see the TMST as a kind luxury train, but it is ~20 years old... Here is a picture of the 'coach' interior

The InterCity 125 trains (Class 43 hauled, MK3s) & IC 225 (Class 90 hauled & MK4s) in England were about the same. MK3 Interior MK4 Interior

The TGV-Lyria I took to Switzerland was a bit better then the other services. TGV Lacroix Interior

But I think the most comfortable seats (and train in general) I took (only talking HSR) in Europe when I was there was the DB ICE-3 train.

That all being said the most comfortable train trip I took in Europe would have been the overnight train I took to Vienna, where I had a bed in a shared room.

peter

 

[reefgeek]

I have ridden a second-class train in Java, Indonesia, which had wicker seating. This is quite appropriate in a non-AC car in that climate (there are fans). The seats were less comfortable than Amtrak Coach, especially for eight hours, but the company was very pleasant.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Well I've seen this example of coach class on an Indian Railways train.

Janshatabdi_train_kerala_india.JPG

It looks just like an airline's coach seats, but remember that the Indian trains are operating on broad gauge (5 ft 6 in) railroads.

Are there any cases of foreigns coming over to the US to be surprised at how comfortable Amtrak's seats are?

 

[PerRock]

Well I've seen this example of coach class on an Indian Railways train.

Janshatabdi_train_kerala_india.JPG

It looks just like an airline's coach seats, but remember that the Indian trains are operating on broad gauge (5 ft 6 in) railroads.

Are there any cases of foreigns coming over to the US to be surprised at how comfortable Amtrak's seats are?

That reminds me. The Shinkansens (seen in the 1st post) Have wider cars then regular cars. They run on regular gauge but stick out further on the sides (there's a term for it, but I can't remember it)

peter

 

[railiner]

Well I've seen this example of coach class on an Indian Railways train.

Janshatabdi_train_kerala_india.JPG

It looks just like an airline's coach seats, but remember that the Indian trains are operating on broad gauge (5 ft 6 in) railroads.

Are there any cases of foreigns coming over to the US to be surprised at how comfortable Amtrak's seats are?

That's amazing. I've never seen six across in a train. The tracks are 5'6" guage, you said, but how wide are those cars? Must be close to 12 feet?

Compare that with Heritage cars--10 feet, Superliner's--10 feet, 4 inches, and Amfleet and Horizon--10'6".

Most commuter cars are 10'6" that seat up to five across. They are 10 feet at platform level to clear high level platforms.

 

[railiner]

On trains in the UK, for economy the seats normally have a pitch around 19" and can't be less than 17".. they're not that comfortable. Some train operators are better than others (theres several in England alone)

Are you confusing seat width from seat pitch? Pitch is the distance from say the front edge of the seat cushion to the front edge of the next seat cushion. 17 or 19 inches would be way too short--there would be no place for your legs. Typical economy is around 31 inches, with luxury first class air seats as high as 84 inches with flat beds.

 

[railiner]

Amtrak long distance seats are not as comfortable as the seats used by US western carriers prior to Amtrak. The Amtrak seats have a leg rest similar to the ATSF seats and the same 52" pitch as the ATSF seats, and the Sleepy Hollow seats used by UP, NP, GN, etc. The main problem with the Amtrak seats; is they do not recline far enough back due to the use of seat back tray tables. VIA day/nighter seats use tray tables that fold out of the arm rest like some first class airline seats. I have not ridden overnight in a VIA day/nighter so I can't comment on their comfort.

LWB

The seats used by the ATSF were manufactured by Karpen, and were very well made. But the best ever made were the "Sleepy Hollow" made by the old Heywood-Wakefield Furniture Co. (commercial seating division). They were thoroughly ergonomically researched by comparing the anatomies of thousands of people. They could be ordered in many designs--short backs for Vista-Dome seating, revolving and reclining with headwings for indivdual parlor cars seats, reclining and rotating pairs with footrests for chair cars, and the same with legrests for transcontinental chair cars. They were supremely comfortable, and were built to last.

 

[fredandgingermad]

On trains in the UK, for economy the seats normally have a pitch around 19" and can't be less than 17".. they're not that comfortable. Some train operators are better than others (theres several in England alone)

Are you confusing seat width from seat pitch? Pitch is the distance from say the front edge of the seat cushion to the front edge of the next seat cushion. 17 or 19 inches would be way too short--there would be no place for your legs. Typical economy is around 31 inches, with luxury first class air seats as high as 84 inches with flat beds.

Oops, i meant the actual seat! the seat pitch with leg room is around the same as a budget airline about 29" A lot of train companies just pack in as many seats as possible especially on communter trains

 

[Steve4031]

Those sleepy hollow seats are better by far. As were those used in the early heritage fleet coaches. The amfleet and superlIner seats fail to support the lower back.

 

[jis]

Well I've seen this example of coach class on an Indian Railways train.

Janshatabdi_train_kerala_india.JPG

It looks just like an airline's coach seats, but remember that the Indian trains are operating on broad gauge (5 ft 6 in) railroads.

Are there any cases of foreigns coming over to the US to be surprised at how comfortable Amtrak's seats are?

That's amazing. I've never seen six across in a train. The tracks are 5'6" guage, you said, but how wide are those cars? Must be close to 12 feet?

Compare that with Heritage cars--10 feet, Superliner's--10 feet, 4 inches, and Amfleet and Horizon--10'6".

Most commuter cars are 10'6" that seat up to five across. They are 10 feet at platform level to clear high level platforms.

Indian Railways uses more or less standard UIC loading gauge at least for width, for long distance trains, so those seats are actually quite narrow. Keep in mind though that Jan Shatabdis are the poor man's low fare variety of trains. The regular Shatabdis are 5 abreast in Coach and 4 abreast in Executive class, but in each case the seats are narrower than in corresponding accommodation in the US. But then, since most Indian are physically smaller than most Americans, the situation for most travelers is not as bad as it might seem.

The Indian cars shells are based on two European designs from two different era. The older variety is based on a Schlieren design (early 60's) and the newer ones are based on an Alstom/LHB design (late 90's). The design of the EMUs are completely different, though based on the same structural components as the Schlieren design.

For suburban EMUs they use something like 12' wide cars, and it is obvious in photos. See:

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/4/0/3/1403.1301829110.jpg

Longer distance EMU, which are called MEMUs are UIC. See:

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/5/4/4/9544.1248843259.jpg

Long distance trains are also UIC: See:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4570409567_0670005ee8.jpg

Those are LHB cars.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Amtrak long distance seats are not as comfortable as the seats used by US western carriers prior to Amtrak. The Amtrak seats have a leg rest similar to the ATSF seats and the same 52" pitch as the ATSF seats, and the Sleepy Hollow seats used by UP, NP, GN, etc. The main problem with the Amtrak seats; is they do not recline far enough back due to the use of seat back tray tables. VIA day/nighter seats use tray tables that fold out of the arm rest like some first class airline seats. I have not ridden overnight in a VIA day/nighter so I can't comment on their comfort.

LWB

The seats used by the ATSF were manufactured by Karpen, and were very well made. But the best ever made were the "Sleepy Hollow" made by the old Heywood-Wakefield Furniture Co. (commercial seating division). They were thoroughly ergonomically researched by comparing the anatomies of thousands of people. They could be ordered in many designs--short backs for Vista-Dome seating, revolving and reclining with headwings for indivdual parlor cars seats, reclining and rotating pairs with footrests for chair cars, and the same with legrests for transcontinental chair cars. They were supremely comfortable, and were built to last.

I remember how well spoken for the sleepy hollow seats were. I think I encountered them in equipment from the Chicago and Eastern Illinois Railroad. They were built for the Meadowlark and the Whippoorwill but later some of them found their way onto the Georgian, where I found them.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Bill:Words from the Master, thanks! ^_^ I was one of the unfortunates in the old days, SP/MoPac/Katy had the horrible chair coaches with the fixed seats that were turned around by moving the seatback across the seat! In addition the mail train/locals and milk run Trains were not Air Conditoned so cooling was via open windows which wasnt very cool when it was over 100 and humid like it always is in the South! Ive seen a few plush seats such as on the PPC on the Starlight, in Museums and on Private Varnish Cars, now that is the way to Travel!

 

[wkaemena]

Okay, so Amtrak's coach seats are probably the most comfortable economy class seats in the US.

But how does Amtrak's coach seats compare to coach seats on trains around the world?

My impression is that Amtrak's seats are actually wider and have more legroom than the ones on other trains.

Prove me if I'm wrong...

Also, I'm talking about "coach" or "economy" class, not Business or First Class.

From the pictures I've seen, the "standard class" seats on the Shinkansen look no bigger than airline coach seats...

For instance, on the 700 series Shinkansen...

E4_std_lower_reserved_Sendai_20020825.jpg

I haven't seen any pictures of the coach class on the TGV, Eurostar, ICE, or other High Speed trains.

But then there's the conventional speed trains...

Here some insights of different non Amtrak trains: all in 360º interactive panoramas

German ICE3

http://www.kaemena360.com/360/ICE3Tour/

Austrian Railjet

http://www.kaemena360.com/360/RailJetTour/

Spanish AVE S103

http://www.kaemena360.com/360/VelaroTour/index.html

German ICE1 with original seats of 1991

http://www.kaemena360.com/360/ICE1Tour/

CP Portugal 2nd class of the 1980s

http://www.360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena/image/lisbon-lisboa-intercidades-train-2nd-class-santa-apolonia-portugal#206.70,20.30,70.0

French TGV 2nd Class

http://www.360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena/image/tgv-train-grand-vitesse-highspeed-france-paris-irun#310.46,14.94,80.0

Japanese Shinkansen from 1964 !!

http://www.360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena/image/japan-shinkansen-1964-bullet-train-york-railway-museum-england#184.59,42.52,86.0

Malaysian Railway 2nd Class

http://www.360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena/image/singapore-malaysian-railways-ktmb-2nd-class-coach-to-kuala-lumpur#32.00,30.04,80.0

Swiss Intercity 2nd Class

http://www.360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena/image/sbb-icn-tilting-train-set-switzerland#-68.53,31.72,80.0

Swiss bilevel car 2nd Class

http://www.360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena/image/sbb-intercity-doublestock-train-set-switzerland#400.10,6.54,83.0

German 2nd Class from 1974 to 1995

http://www.360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena/image/db-intercity-train-1974-bm235-2nd-class-compartment#116.50,12.70,80.0

German 2nd class from 1951- 1995

http://www.360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena/image/euro-express-bm234-lhb-1965-db-germany#158.36,27.62,80.0

German 2nd class intercity from 1979 onwards

http://www.360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena/image/train-intercity-2nd-class-car-bpm-db-germany#81.55,25.95,80.0

Austrian Railways 2nd class from 1978 onwards

http://www.360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena/image/oebb-austria-intercity-car-bmz-train#332.48,41.26,80.0

Danish IC3 2nd Class

http://www.360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena/image/denmark-dsb-danish-railways-ic3-intercity3-second-class#331.11,30.41,80.0

Hungarian 2nd Class Intercity

http://www.360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena/image/hungary-h-start-intercity-train-bpmz-ic78-lokoshaza-boarder-station#327.20,23.60,70.0

 

[GG-1]

SP/MoPac/Katy had the horrible chair coaches with the fixed seats that were turned around by moving the seatback across the seat!

Aloha

Jim, you are describing the 100 year old cars that the Nevada Southern Railroad Museum runs.

But they do have Air Conditioning. The only bad thing is the available track is only 3 1/2 miles long, but the kids in those seat don't care

 

[Big Iron]

Amtrak long distance seats are not as comfortable as the seats used by US western carriers prior to Amtrak. The Amtrak seats have a leg rest similar to the ATSF seats and the same 52" pitch as the ATSF seats, and the Sleepy Hollow seats used by UP, NP, GN, etc. The main problem with the Amtrak seats; is they do not recline far enough back due to the use of seat back tray tables. VIA day/nighter seats use tray tables that fold out of the arm rest like some first class airline seats. I have not ridden overnight in a VIA day/nighter so I can't comment on their comfort.

LWB

I've ridden in a day/nighter coach and its a dead heat with Amtrak coach seats. The day/nighter had side headrests for your head that gave you something to lean on and some privacy from your seatmate. The middle armrest would be a plus if you have a seatmate for extra separation but would be a minus if you were to have a seat pair to yourself.

 

[railiner]

Well I've seen this example of coach class on an Indian Railways train.

Janshatabdi_train_kerala_india.JPG

It looks just like an airline's coach seats, but remember that the Indian trains are operating on broad gauge (5 ft 6 in) railroads.

Are there any cases of foreigns coming over to the US to be surprised at how comfortable Amtrak's seats are?

That's amazing. I've never seen six across in a train. The tracks are 5'6" guage, you said, but how wide are those cars? Must be close to 12 feet?

Compare that with Heritage cars--10 feet, Superliner's--10 feet, 4 inches, and Amfleet and Horizon--10'6".

Most commuter cars are 10'6" that seat up to five across. They are 10 feet at platform level to clear high level platforms.

Indian Railways uses more or less standard UIC loading gauge at least for width, for long distance trains, so those seats are actually quite narrow. Keep in mind though that Jan Shatabdis are the poor man's low fare variety of trains. The regular Shatabdis are 5 abreast in Coach and 4 abreast in Executive class, but in each case the seats are narrower than in corresponding accommodation in the US. But then, since most Indian are physically smaller than most Americans, the situation for most travelers is not as bad as it might seem.

The Indian cars shells are based on two European designs from two different era. The older variety is based on a Schlieren design (early 60's) and the newer ones are based on an Alstom/LHB design (late 90's). The design of the EMUs are completely different, though based on the same structural components as the Schlieren design.

For suburban EMUs they use something like 12' wide cars, and it is obvious in photos. See:

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/4/0/3/1403.1301829110.jpg

Longer distance EMU, which are called MEMUs are UIC. See:

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/5/4/4/9544.1248843259.jpg

Long distance trains are also UIC: See:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4570409567_0670005ee8.jpg

Those are LHB cars.

Those are some interesting photo's. I am especially curious about those elaborate signals. And notice that not only do the cars have 'ghetto-grates' protecting the windows, but even the signals do!

 

[jis]

Those are some interesting photo's. I am especially curious about those elaborate signals. And notice that not only do the cars have 'ghetto-grates' protecting the windows, but even the signals do!

The example that you see there is of a typical what is called MACL (Multi Aspect Colour light) signal with route indicators - those things sticking out the top. IR primarily uses Route Signaling. Only a few segments that have so far been upgraded to Bombardier supplied and then manufactured in India under license, ERTMS 2, are Speed Signaled.

The "ghetto grates" have partly to do with keeping innovative birds from building their nests at inconvenient places in the signals.

Incidentally, the discerning viewer will note that the train is moving away from the camera since the "LV" (Last Vehicle) marker appears on the face of the train. So it has just passed that signal next to it and has knocked it down.

 

[railiner]

Those are some interesting photo's. I am especially curious about those elaborate signals. And notice that not only do the cars have 'ghetto-grates' protecting the windows, but even the signals do!

The example that you see there is of a typical what is called MACL (Multi Aspect Colour light) signal with route indicators - those things sticking out the top. IR primarily uses Route Signaling. Only a few segments that have so far been upgraded to Bombardier supplied and then manufactured in India under license, ERTMS 2, are Speed Signaled.

The "ghetto grates" have partly to do with keeping innovative birds from building their nests at inconvenient places in the signals.

Incidentally, the discerning viewer will note that the train is moving away from the camera since the "LV" (Last Vehicle) marker appears on the face of the train. So it has just passed that signal next to it and has knocked it down.

Thanks for that explanation, JIS, those signals do look complicated, and I never would have guessed that reason for the guards over the lenses...I would have thought it more to protect against vandalism.