Trump and Amtrak/Budget cutting funding

[ehbowen]

I would say that the conversation devolved with the previous post, full of smug superiority and condescension. But I suppose that describes more of the forum these days than this one thread.

Regrettably, it describes much more than this forum, or even the Internet in general....

 

[Carolina Special]

I believe most of us on this board would like to see more Amtrak services provided in some fashion, particularly beyond the NEC. How we get there when we come from a wide variety of backgrounds, experiences and views on a number of topics can be tough to reconcile on a message board.

Take money from here to pay for more Amtrak or take it from the other fellow behind the tree. Let's look at LD service above the rail versus looking at the business in the entirety. Some differences (not all) could be worked out if we met in person, but not in a few paragraphs on a message board. It is the nature of the beast.

 

[blueman271]

you should know that I am a submariner and have been for the last eleven years.

Yet in all of that time, you've not learned to treat people with respect.Good thing you're not on one of my boats, shipmate.

That's rich coming from you since you are the king of condescension on this forum. But I guess it takes one to know one right shipmate.

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

I have to admit, there is also one thing that makes no sense. After all the hard work Amtrak has done to get those new Viewliner II's to replace the much older cars, Trump wants to cut the funding for Long-Distance trains! It makes no sense, because the Viewliner II's are designed SPECIFICALLY for long-distance service. And while these new cars are still being built, Trump now wants to cut them? I find that wasteful!

 

[Carolina Special]

Well from the perspective of the other side, the Viewliner II sleepers were being built in 2015, 2016 and now 2017 without any finished cars to show for it. Amtrak's most recent five year budget plan had these in service by now: that is wasteful on the revenue and expense side. If I were opposing Amtrak LD trains in Congress, I'd be all over that.

And it makes it that much harder to justify the 1000+ cars that Amtrak wants in the early 2020s if they can't get the Viewliner II orders done on a timely basis. And I believe Amtrak will need most of those for the equipment that will wear out over the next ten years.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak isn't building the cars, and therefore is not necessarily responsible for the problems concerning them. Besides, perhaps, selecting a contractor that has no experience building FRA compliant cars for US service.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Amtrak isn't building the cars, and therefore is not necessarily responsible for the problems concerning them.

Isn't part of CAF's problems due to the 100% "Buy America" requirement imposed by Congress?

The sole American supplier of 'thingamajigs' went broke, out of business, bulldozed the factory, no? Of course, CAF could easily find a European supplier of 'thingamajigs', but cannot use imports on the cars they are building.

This problem could be what's totally blocking any option or add-on order for even another 10 or 25 more Viewliners.

 

[RSG]

Isn’t there a provision where they can get around that by simply building (or buying) a factory in the US to assemble/produce compliant cars with sourced parts from wherever? Isn’t that what Alstom is doing with their operations in New York [state]?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

... simply building (or buying) a factory in the US to assemble/produce compliant cars with sourced parts from wherever? Isn’t that what Alstom is doing with their operations in New York [state]?

CAF bought a factory at Elmira, New York state, but it can't use imported parts. The Stimulus funding, maybe all federal rail funding, requires 100% "Buy American".

I don't expect to see any imported parts used in building Avelia HSR cars at Hornell, in Western New York state, about 65 miles west of the CAF assembly plant.

 

[jis]

Meanwhile , Siemens built and delivered the Brightline sets using 100% "Build America", even though they were legally not required to be 100% "Build America" compliant.

 

[Anderson]

Chiming in on the military stuff, I will say that trying to pin down who is responsible for "misprocurement" is a tough one. For example, there are some fun stories of one branch grabbing another branch's project more or less for the purpose of killing it off.

There are also projects that were/weren't "wanted" or "needed" which the military pushed (or didn't push) for political reasons. I know that I can't necessarily trust a Congresscritter to push what the military needs; that doesn't mean that I can trust the guy on the other side of the hearing table just because he's got stars on his shoulders. I /know/ I don't trust the guy with stars not to monkey around with budget estimates (or to not be the victim of his staff monkeying around with them). For what it's worth, I also tend to suspect that most or all of the parties involved are doing their best for their respective agendas.

Swinging back around to Amtrak, this is actually a decent analogy: The best evidence is that George Warrington was, shall we say, less than truthful about the position Amtrak was in during his tenure. But in doing that he made a big gamble and got us the Acelas.

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@CSXFoamer1997 (and others):
There are two broad issues there. Carolina Special hit on one of them (the cars were supposed to be delivered YEARS ago), though that could be worked around if a competent vendor were used. The other issue is that the asked-for cut to Amtrak was a "wish list" item that (as I noted earlier in the thread) probably wasn't even realistic in anyone's mind, it was a case of "round up the usual suspects so we can say we submitted a neutral budget and move on".

For the most part, my understanding is that there is some wiggle room on the "Buy American" requirements if the parts simply cannot be sourced (or can't be sourced at anything resembling a competitive price). Moreover:
(1) As jis noted, Siemens was able to make it work; and
(2) Even setting aside Siemens' success, CAF submitted the bid and in doing so either implicitly or explicitly said they could make it work (as did Bombardier-Alstom, IIRC...and as did Nippon-Sharyo, though they've had other issues). If the requirements were impossible, CAF should not have bid and if they submitted a bid that they knew they could not complete then I /think/ that counts as fraud. If they submitted a bid that they thought they could complete and the reason they ultimately could not wasn't just a pile of change orders or other issues from Amtrak (or some sort of external mess like a supply chain collapse...in which case I suspect we'd have been hearing about them filing for waivers as a result*), then they're just incompetent.

The "Buy American" rules are a reason for someone not to bid. They are NOT a reason for someone to bid and then be unable to deliver.

*The posts above are the first I'm hearing that there's some sort of "missing part" to blame for the CAF order falling apart. The early excuse had to do with them not knowing, in so many words, how to install a plumbing system in a sleeper along with some change orders.

 

[cirdan]

Meanwhile , Siemens built and delivered the Brightline sets using 100% "Build America", even though they were legally not required to be 100% "Build America" compliant.

I guess Siemens considered that order a springboard to further orders. So it wasn't as much about doing the minimum as it was about showing what could be done.

 

[cirdan]

Isn’t there a provision where they can get around that by simply building (or buying) a factory in the US to assemble/produce compliant cars with sourced parts from wherever? Isn’t that what Alstom is doing with their operations in New York [state]?

Not really, as sub-suppliers also need to demonstrate their contribution towards the whole, all the way down the value-add chain.

But possibly companies such as CAF or Siemens in which one subsidiary of the same group buys from another subsidiary of the same group, there can be tricks done with foreign sourced components being purchased at below cost value, and the profits then being siphoned back to compensate.

I don't know how difficult it would be to prevent or even detect that.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Meanwhile the tar sands crude oil pipeline isn't bound by any "buy American" requirement as it transports and spills foreign oil across previously untainted land and fresh water drinking supplies.

 

[keelhauled]

I don't expect to see any imported parts used in building Avelia HSR cars at Hornell, in Western New York state, about 65 miles west of the CAF assembly plant.

The exact language Amtrak uses is "More than 95 percent of trainset components will be manufactured domestically."

 

[WoodyinNYC]

I don't expect to see any imported parts used in building Avelia HSR cars at Hornell, in Western New York state, about 65 miles west of the CAF assembly plant.

The exact language Amtrak uses is "More than 95 percent of trainset components will be manufactured domestically."

Well, there you are. Amtrak is financing the Avelias thru the RRIF (or RIFF?) loan from the FRA, without any money direct from Congress, which probably would not have been so flexible.

The Stimulus projects were 100% "Buy American", a more strict requirement than usual, when typically there's a 10% exception. The CAF order isn't from Stimulus funds, but it is from the Congressionally-approved annual subsidy. I'm pretty sure it is also 100% "Buy American."

I expect that the extreme 100% requirement wasn't put there by the haters in Congress wanting to make things ever difficult for Amtrak.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

*The posts above are the first I'm hearing that there's some sort of "missing part" to blame for the CAF order falling apart.

Columbus Castings was operating until ... a bankruptcy filing by the company’s owner.

Reich Brothers narrowly outbid a private-equity firm that had plans to reopen the plant.

The foundry was the only manufacturer in the country for certain parts for rail-car undercarriages. The rail industry, however, has experienced a sharp decline because of falling coal and oil shipments.


One question throughout the bankruptcy process was what rail-car makers would do to get the parts in the absence of this key supplier. Reich said he may sell some of the assets to another parts manufacturer, but added that there is no current plan to do so.

Source, the Columbus Dispatch:

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/08/18/columbus-castings-new-owner.html

 

[jis]

There are other alternative manufacturers of those parts. However, since they did not have any contract in place to supply them, it takes a little time to come upto speed on the manufacturing line.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Budget "waste" is a cool concept, because it is both truth and nonsense at the same time.

The US Capitol building is an expensive and beautiful edifice representing US power and prestige. However, all Congress really needs is two lecture halls of appropriate size, as seen in college campuses, and a few office buildings to house their staff and a few hearing rooms. Few people would consider the Capitol a waste, but in terms of bare bones requirements, it certainly is. It's need is ephemeral.

Public parks, high speed roadways, rail, public library's... all of these things are not absolutely essential, and can be termed waste. Except they provide for the public welfare in various ways, to various degrees.

Waste is defined as things one pays for but does not use.

The truth is, there is nobody who sits around figuring out how to bonfire as much taxpayer money as possible.

Every project makes sense to someone, in terms of defense, or beneficial infrastructure, or economic development, public enjoyment, or employment, or a show project to help with re-election.

Very little of the waste comes from individual projects. Most of it comes from massive profiteering from the private contractors that build those projects. I do happen to think our military is oversized and geared to fight a type of war that doesn't exist anymore- forget about the power source of our submarines- what the heck do we need them for in the first place? It's an outmoded form of combat, because the few operators who would be in a position to take a serious arguing posture with a US Navy warship can detect our submarines easily.

But on the other hand, having such weapons available if China or Russia can get serious about underwater boats... so is it waste?

 

[afigg]

The exact language Amtrak uses is "More than 95 percent of trainset components will be manufactured domestically."

Well, there you are. Amtrak is financing the Avelias thru the RRIF (or RIFF?) loan from the FRA, without any money direct from Congress, which probably would not have been so flexible.
The Stimulus projects were 100% "Buy American", a more strict requirement than usual, when typically there's a 10% exception. The CAF order isn't from Stimulus funds, but it is from the Congressionally-approved annual subsidy. I'm pretty sure it is also 100% "Buy American."

I expect that the extreme 100% requirement wasn't put there by the haters in Congress wanting to make things ever difficult for Amtrak.

No, Amtrak got a waiver from the FRA for the Buy America requirements for components in the Avelia (aka Acela II) 28 trainset order. The 100% Buy America rule applies to RRIF loan funding, which is one (major) reason the RRIF loan program has been underutilized. The waiver was granted for the Aluminum car body shells, vehicle paint, and brake system components. Which presumably leaves the 95% to be sourced from US manufacturers. Getting the FRA waiver took Amtrak well over a year, IIRC,

The 100% Buy America requirements was not put in to make things difficult for Amtrak. It applies to federal funding for transit agencies, and probably a whole bunch of other federal grants. The 100% requirement drives up acquisition costs, by a lot in some cases. Even a 90% rule, however that 90% is determined, would save a lot of money. But in the Trump era, how many politicians are going to vote for a 90% Buy America rule? Makes for easy attack ads in the next election. I await the day Congress puts in a 110% Buy America requirement. Yes, 110% of the parts must be made in America!

 

[RSG]

The US Capitol building is an expensive and beautiful edifice representing US power and prestige. However, all Congress really needs is two lecture halls of appropriate size, as seen in college campuses, and a few office buildings to house their staff and a few hearing rooms. Few people would consider the Capitol a waste, but in terms of bare bones requirements, it certainly is. It's need is ephemeral.

Except that the US Capitol wasn’t always overrun with excess space; the Supreme Court was also housed there until they moved into their own digs. In fact, that’s a better example of overkill, since when does a court need such a massive edifice which looks more like a memorial than a functional building? Yet, I would imagine part of the reason was to impart an air of confidence and everlasting hope at a time in the nation’s history when despair was rampant and hope in short supply.
To extrapolate another example, my state capitol is undergoing a multi-year renovation which will triple the number of committee meeting rooms. Previously, there was adequate space for most of upper-level state government for most of the year. But when the legislature is in session, rooms which are normally offices became cramped meeting spaces. Point being, when you need the space you need the space, even if you don’t need it 365 days/year. Would it be that we lived in the Harry Potter universe where buildings could automatically expand and contract based on the needs at any given time.

So it is with Amtrak. There are probably non-passenger citizens who step outside a bar or on their porch for a smoke (or while waiting at a crossing) during a station stop in January and February and see empty seats in the coach cars and think “What a waste! No wonder the federal budget wants to eliminate long distance trains.” But they don’t realize that during June/July/August the cars are full, or that unlike the airlines, Amtrak can’t just move equipment around to fit the amount of passengers at any given time.

But on the other hand, having such weapons available if China or Russia can get serious about underwater boats... so is it waste?

Or are all the missles a waste if the 'Little Fat Kid' in North Korea decides to see if some of his new toys down the line will get rid of some of his bullies?

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I'm not sure this is new news but this USA Today article does discuss the cuts in more detail. They highlight the LSL and the lack of ability to go coast to coast or to the South and Midwest (assuming this is from the eastern point of view).

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/n ... 100395912/

 

[tomfuller]

Did anyone else notice that the #4 length route is the Sunset Limited from ORLANDO to Los Angeles?

How many stations has Amtrak remodeled or replaced in the past 12 years? I like what they did to my home station of Chemult Oregon.

 

[jis]

Did anyone else notice that the #4 length route is the Sunset Limited from ORLANDO to Los Angeles?

Also it must travel through some sort of a worm hole to manage to travel from Orlando to Los Angeles covering only 1995 miles

 

[gabbygrrl]

If this budget does pass, and they end up cutting long distance service, when would it take effect? Can I book something for this November? Or will it take until 2018 for anything to actually happen?