Two sisters were kicked off Crescent for using the lounge car

[AmtrakBlue]

There is likewise no evidence that they were not except from themselves as far as I can tell

This! How many drunks admit to being drunk? Usually they’re too drunk to know they’re drunk.

 

[Eric in East County]

Maybe Amtrak conductors need to start wearing bodycams.

Perhaps this is not such a bad idea if for no other reason than to protect the conductors and Amtrak from any blowback, legal or otherwise. If these two old ladies decide to hire a lawyer and that lawyer knows how to work the media to gain national sympathy for them, it might not go well for Amtrak if the case ever makes it to court. (The act of putting two unaccompanied and quite elderly women off of a train 500 miles from their home IS rather extreme. It will be interesting to see if anything more comes of this.)

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This! How many drunks admit to being drunk? Usually they’re too drunk to know they’re drunk.

 

[user 14106]

I've seen belligerent behavior in both directions and it's entirely possible both groups are in the wrong. Hard saying not knowing.

I don’t disagree and I have seen some rude Amtrak employees as well. That’s why I feel you need to see both sides to judge.

 

[zephyr17]

I don’t disagree and I have seen some rude Amtrak employees as well.

While the majority of Amtrak employees are okay to great, there are a LOT of rude ones out there, too. Just try to use one of the tables they've homesteaded but are not currently using to see.
Amtrak's almost complete lack of onboard supervision and management does those good staff members and passengers no favors.

 

[joelkfla]

I don't understand these responses for two reasons. The first is that this is standard operating procedure for Amtrak and many other large companies. The second is that there is a lot to lose from responding too soon and having to walk it all back again. Consider what happened with UA3411. What pushed me over the edge was not that a passenger was beaten and bloodied before being dragged off the plane, but that the airline brass almost immediately declared that their staff had done absolutely nothing wrong and the airline would be exonerated from any judgement or blame. That claim aged horribly as more details emerged.

If Amtrak had said they were investigating, that would be valid. But they simply said they do not comment on incidents involving passengers. They will neither admit wrongdoing, nor defend themselves. That may be SOP, but it leaves us with nothing but the ejected passengers' account to judge by. It looks like stonewalling to me.

 

[cirdan]

There is likewise no evidence that they were not except from themselves as far as I can tell

would this be an argument for surveillance cameras on trains?

 

[cirdan]

This! How many drunks admit to being drunk? Usually they’re too drunk to know they’re drunk.

When I'm tipsy I am usually fully aware of the fact

 

[Asher]

"Dealin' cards with the old men in the club car
Penny a point ain't no one keepin' score
Won't you pass the paper bag that holds the bottle"

Sounds like these two ladies were trying to change the words to the Arlo Guthrie
"City of New Orleans song.. Even the 500 miles from home rings a bell.

 

[Bonser]

I've been riding Amtrak since its inception and I've never witnessed a conductor acting improperly. Gruff yes but never over the top. Anytime I've seen people kicked off it was for good reasons - loud drunkenness a couple of times, hiding in restrooms(PHL-NYP), and once for leaving the train with a dog at a non fresh air stop and after being told not to. I'm not saying conductors haven't ever been rude or went over the line , only that in 50 plus yrs of regularly riding Amtrak I haven't witnessed it or even heard of it on a train that I was on. I do think some riders are hyper sensitive when told what to do and situations escalate from there. That said, conductors and crews sprawling out in the lounge car is all too common and needs to be addressed by Amtrak.

 

[Trogdor]

If Amtrak had said they were investigating, that would be valid. But they simply said they do not comment on incidents involving passengers. They will neither admit wrongdoing, nor defend themselves. That may be SOP, but it leaves us with nothing but the ejected passengers' account to judge by. It looks like stonewalling to me.

What obligation does any large corporation have to give you the details regarding an incident between their staff and another customer that has no connection to you?

 

[cassie225]

Maybe they were being too loud. I can be loud and rowdy without alcohol lol. I hope I’m never threatened with jail or being put off. Just be peaceful and go back to your room- that’s what I would have done especially being so far away from home and needing the ride

 

[Eric in East County]

This incident involves two extremely elderly ladies who were not traveling with some younger person to watch out for them. Fortunately, it appears that they still had their wits about them and were able, on their own, to get a hotel and book a train for the following day. For many people this age, however, being ejected from a train in a strange place and far from home could be a terrifying experience, just as it would be for a young, unaccompanied child. While the details of what all happened are not yet fully known, their conduct would have to had been pretty serious to justify putting them off the train, given their extreme ages. They were obviously smart enough to tell their story to the media and might even now be talking with a lawyer about bringing action based on “elder abuse.” In any case, the negative PR isn’t doing Amtrak any good.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

When I'm tipsy I am usually fully aware of the fact

This may be true for you but studies have shown that in general drinkers are terrible at measuring their own intoxication based on how tipsy they feel. As drinkers age we build up resistance that further dulls our ability to sense intoxication. Much of what we do perceive comes from reading the body language of people around us rather than how we feel inside. This is one reason why drunk driving remains common despite increasingly severe consequences.

 

[jis]

This incident involves two extremely elderly ladies who were not traveling with some younger person to watch out for them. Fortunately, it appears that they still had their wits about them and were able, on their own, to get a hotel and book a train for the following day. For many people this age, however, being ejected from a train in a strange place and far from home could be a terrifying experience, just as it would be for a young, unaccompanied child. While the details of what all happened are not yet fully known, their conduct would have to had been pretty serious to justify putting them off the train, given their extreme ages. They were obviously smart enough to tell their story to the media and might even now be talking with a lawyer about bringing action based on “elder abuse.” In any case, the negative PR isn’t doing Amtrak any good.

I have been actively looking for any further publicity or reporting on this incident and so far have come up empty. Clearly so far this is not making the rounds as much as the two ladies whose dog pooped incident did.

 

[tgstubbs1]

Maybe they were being too loud. I can be loud and rowdy without alcohol lol. I hope I’m never threatened with jail or being put off. Just be peaceful and go back to your room- that’s what I would have done especially being so far away from home and needing the ride

One thing that seems almost certain to me is that there were probably more words spoken than the brief report in the news article indicates. Maybe they were put off the train for their own good, if they were intoxicated.

 

[MARC Rider]

What obligation does any large corporation have to give you the details regarding an incident between their staff and another customer that has no connection to you?

There might not be any legal obligation, but not responding in any way (even if just to say they are investigating the incident) isn't good PR.

 

[cirdan]

There might not be any legal obligation, but not responding in any way (even if just to say they are investigating the incident) isn't good PR.

Sometimes it can take time to get the facts straight. A pre-emptive response based on facts that may turn out to be inaccurate and may have to be retracted will not do Amtrak much good either. It might even expose them to a libel lawsuit.

 

[lrh442]

Hard saying not knowing.

^ This about sums up the entire topic.

 

[jis]

Sometimes it can take time to get the facts straight. A pre-emptive response based on facts that may turn out to be inaccurate and may have to be retracted will not do Amtrak much good either. It might even expose them to a libel lawsuit.

It is always balancing legal exposure against appearing great on PR. The legal departments tend to tie the hands of the PR people and get them to refrain from providing anything but content free canned response. This was the case in every large corporation that I worked for. In any such altercation with customers, the instructions were clear. Act strictly following the rules, report the incident to Legal, and let them handle it from there. Don't talk about it to media or get into unnecessary conversations with outsiders.

 

[joelkfla]

What obligation does any large corporation have to give you the details regarding an incident between their staff and another customer that has no connection to you?

First of all, Amtrak is not just another large corporation. They are, in fact, an agency of the U.S. government.

Secondly, IMO any corporation that deals with the public has an ethical responsibility to deal with the public fairly and openly. A lot of them don't, but that doesn't make it right. If they are accused of mistreating their customers and choose not to dispute it, they deserve any negative public opinion that arises.

 

[MARC Rider]

Sometimes it can take time to get the facts straight. A pre-emptive response based on facts that may turn out to be inaccurate and may have to be retracted will not do Amtrak much good either. It might even expose them to a libel lawsuit.

OK, I'm not a lawyer, but how can a response like, "we take these allegations seriously and we are now investigating the circumstances" cause any legal trouble? Of course, it is possible that someone at Amtrak said something like that, and it was not included in the article.

 

[jis]

First of all, Amtrak is not just another large corporation. They are, in fact, an agency of the U.S. government.

Just for kicks I would note that the Central Intelligence Agency is also an Agency of the US Government And they are not even a large corporation.

 

[pennyk]

MODERATOR NOTE: Please avoid discussing possible lawsuits and/or second guessing Amtrak's response to this situation, whether or not you are a lawyer, armchair lawyer or a railfan with a strong opinion.
I have seen more passengers than I can count be removed from Amtrak trains for intoxication and/or otherwise inappropriate behavior.

Thank you for your cooperation and participation.

 

[Anderson]

First of all, Amtrak is not just another large corporation. They are, in fact, an agency of the U.S. government.

Secondly, IMO any corporation that deals with the public has an ethical responsibility to deal with the public fairly and openly. A lot of them don't, but that doesn't make it right. If they are accused of mistreating their customers and choose not to dispute it, they deserve any negative public opinion that arises.

Tell that last paragraph to Legal and see how they react ;-)

As to Amtrak's situation...as Jis pointed out, not all agencies really bother trying to get great PR (though to be fair, Amtrak can't threaten Congress with the risk of terrorism if they aren't funded). Heck, Amtrak's last CEO couldn't even be bothered to try and get good PR with Congress.