Union Pacific & The STB

[GDRRiley]

I think there's probably some assumption of significant work grading, etc. It might not involve massive construction works, but even redoing a grade crossing here or doing some filling in on the sides there could probably add quite a bit to the bill. [Also, that indicates 50% relay, and wouldn't this involve 100% being laid?]

There is shouldn't be the ROW is almot all a flat desert with the space already there. a few dozen small bridges are needed ether as part of overpasses or for rivers. They've only got 16 grade crossings from Colton to the Cochella yard.
the top number was all new and I used the 300$ a ft which is more than what new rail on concrete ties with PTC would cost. CTC cost is mostly down to how many crossovers you have

 

[Anderson]

True for WW1. However, notice it was not done for WW2, despite having a federal administration much more inclined toward that sort of stuff. Most of the people that would have been involved in that decision for WW2 had memories of how it did not work near as well as anticipated during WW1, so they did not want it to happen again.

There was also serious political blowback after WW1. There were a number of things done during WW1 that weren't repeated in the same way during WW2 because of the political cost that Wilson paid: Wilson lost both houses of Congress in 1918 and 1920 was a wholesale slaughter for his party - it's hard to really explain just how bad the wipeout was, but not only were the Democrats all but wiped out outside of the South [they were in a hair of being completely wiped off the map in IL, for example...all three wins were very narrow], there were actually a decent number of competitive races in Alabama, Virginia, and North Carolina (VA usually had one R district at the time and then maybe another one that was competitive). So regardless of predilections, FDR did not want to risk a repeat of Wilson in WW1.

 

[Willbridge]

The efficiencies and austerity that were introduced with the USRRA were not loved by the public. Stephen Goddard in Getting There (1994) does a good job of showing how the public support for highway projects was boosted by the negative attitude toward "the railroads" - as in the public mind the wartime measures were just an extension of years of turmoil.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1245029.Getting_There
As a loyal average everyday American, I have followed the instructions on the bottom of this blah cover...

 

[west point]

That is just plain old fashioned poor management trying to make itself look good through marketing literature with not much to actually back it up. The day of reckoning will come sooner rather than later on this one I think.

Do you think that reckoning might be some form of no trains longer than available siding / or at least 2 main track ?

 

[joelkfla]

Do you think that reckoning might be some form of no trains longer than available siding / or at least 2 main track ?

IMHO, any such dictate would be tied up in the courts for years, or decades.

 

[jis]

Do you think that reckoning might be some form of no trains longer than available siding / or at least 2 main track ?

I think the freight railroads will reconsider the equation that has led them to the ridiculous extreme in train lengths, and arrive by themselves at some happy medium of slightly shorter trains that fit in sidings many of which will be lengthened to accommodate whatever train length they arrive at.

This will happen well before they come anywhere near approaching 0% operating ratio on zero trains in operation

 

[ShiningTimeStL]

Temporary nationalization ala Conrail would be the way to go, a massive slap in the face only to be done in the event of an emergency. Nationalizing the infrastructure ala Network Rail... interesting idea, although the British would tell you it's not a good one.

The real problem is that Class I carriers have deliberately destroyed their own infrastructure to reduce costs and drive up profit margins. If we make improvements, who owns the new sidings? If they do, who says they won't rip them out again? Fed gov or Amtrak must own every inch of new rail they pay for. That's what makes me so mad about the Atlantic Coast furball. Taxpayers are footing the bill to rebuild what CSX and NS already had and chose to destroy. Same thing could end up happening here.

It could take like five years or something for a court to rule that freight carriers are responsible for maintaining their infrastructure to a level that supports passenger operations in their role as a common carrier. OR that could be included in new Congressional law or STB language for defining common carrier obligations, a much preferred and easier alternative to nationalization. I believe such a bill was introduced last year and died in committee, as usual.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Temporary nationalization ala Conrail would be the way to go, a massive slap in the face only to be done in the event of an emergency. Nationalizing the infrastructure ala Network Rail... interesting idea, although the British would tell you it's not a good one.

The real problem is that Class I carriers have deliberately destroyed their own infrastructure to reduce costs and drive up profit margins. If we make improvements, who owns the new sidings? If they do, who says they won't rip them out again? Fed gov or Amtrak must own every inch of new rail they pay for. That's what makes me so mad about the Atlantic Coast furball. Taxpayers are footing the bill to rebuild what CSX and NS already had and chose to destroy. Same thing could end up happening here.

It could take like five years or something for a court to rule that freight carriers are responsible for maintaining their infrastructure to a level that supports passenger operations in their role as a common carrier. OR that could be included in new Congressional law or STB language for defining common carrier obligations, a much preferred and easier alternative to nationalization. I believe such a bill was introduced last year and died in committee, as usual.

Chances of Congressional Action on this are "Slim and None" since there are so many more Urgent and Pressing Problems to deal with, the K Street Lobbyist are swarming like Locusts, and the Political Manuvering has already begun for the 2024 Elections!

 

[Bob Dylan]

I think the freight railroads will reconsider the equation that has led them to the ridiculous extreme in train lengths, and arrive by themselves at some happy medium of slightly shorter trains that fit in sidings many of which will be lengthened to accommodate whatever train length they arrive at.

This will happen well before they come anywhere near approaching 0% operating ratio on zero trains in operation

Let's hope so, UP Freights seem to get Longer by the day resulting in longer delays to the Sunset Ltd and Texas Eaglette here in Texas.

And now, they're urging Arbitration between Amtrak and themselves before a ruling about Amtraks filing a complaint to the STB about UPs Regular delays to Passenger Trains brought about by UP!

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

The efficiencies and austerity that were introduced with the USRRA were not loved by the public. Stephen Goddard in Getting There (1994) does a good job of showing how the public support for highway projects was boosted by the negative attitude toward "the railroads" - as in the public mind the wartime measures were just an extension of years of turmoil.

I've always felt that the long-standing hostility to the railroad companies is often overlooked in the post WWII era as well.

 

[Anderson]

I've always felt that the long-standing hostility to the railroad companies is often overlooked in the post WWII era as well.

There were a lot of intermittent cases of "bad behavior", and I think we do often overlook how lousy a lot of lower-tier trains were. For example, I believe that in the 1970s there was still some WW1-era commuter equipment in use in various places.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Nationalizing the infrastructure ala Network Rail... interesting idea, although the British would tell you it's not a good one.

Actually I think the nationalizing of Network Rail was the only good thing they did, the private operation by Railtrack was a disaster. I believe the main problem with rail in the UK besides a general lack of investment by the government, is the short term nature of the contracts with the Train Operating Companies which give them little incentive to invest for the long term.

I suspect nationalizing the infrastructure here in the US would be opposed not only for the usual reasons (cries of Socialism!) but also the freight railroads (even if adequately compensated for the takeover) would not like the idea of open access where any Tom **** or Harry could start up train service over what used to be "their" railroad.

 

[jis]

Actually I think the nationalizing of Network Rail was the only good thing they did, the private operation by Railtrack was a disaster. I believe the main problem with rail in the UK besides a general lack of investment by the government, is the short term nature of the contracts with the Train Operating Companies which give them little incentive to invest for the long term.

I suspect nationalizing the infrastructure here in the US would be opposed not only for the usual reasons (cries of Socialism!) but also the freight railroads (even if adequately compensated for the takeover) would not like the idea of open access where any Tom **** or Harry could start up train service over what used to be "their" railroad.

I agree. This is the first I heard of the British thinking nationalizing the rail infrastructure was a bad idea, after several disastrous accidents under the tender loving care of Railtrack.

However, the situation in the UK was completely different from the one in the US, though progressively of late it seems to me that the US manages to produce more derailments and other outages than almost anywhere else in the world. But things still have to get much worse and more East Palestines have to happen before people really start worrying about such things.

One thing to remember is that a lot of the so called "free market competition" in the US depends heavily on monopolistic franchises granted and protected by the government. So the bottom line question is really whose franchise is being protected by whom for the good of whom, not just private vs. public.

 

[MARC Rider]

For example, I believe that in the 1970s there was still some WW1-era commuter equipment in use in various places.

In 1970, I used to ride MP45 EMUs in service on the PRR Philadelphia commuter trains. These were built over a period from 1915 (when hey first electrified the Paoli Line) to 1937. Thus, in 1970, they were 33 to 55 years old. Right now SEPTA is still running Silverliner IV cars built in 1973, which would make them 50 years old.

On the PRR regional service between New York and Washington, back in 1970, there were still some P-70 coaches in the consists. There were built at about the same time as the MP-54s. In fact some of them were used by Amtrak in the early days. I remember in August 1972 riding the "Southern Crescent" between New York and Philadelphia. Amtrak tacked on a few cars at the end for those of us riding the corridor, and one was a P-70 painted in Penn Central green. I'll tell you, that was a real thrill rocking along at 100 mph down the "raceway" in New Jersey in that old car with all the windows open! (No air conditioning, and it was a hot day.)

 

[allanorn]

Is that route mostly single track?

Having been on the SL in 2022, a lot of it in Texas is single track. I did notice a lot of double-tracking efforts in NM.

I remember the train I was on going into a siding and stopping behind a UP freight train going in the same direction. Once the UP freight train going in the other direction passed, we had to back out onto the main line and speed past the freight train we were sitting with. It didn't take terribly long - thirty minutes perhaps? But I can't imagine trying to do such maneuvers being four hours late due to things outside of one's control.

 

[west point]

But can you imagine that happening 2 - 4 times traveling the full route.

 

[jis]

Latest from STB on the UP case:

https://www.stb.gov/news-communications/latest-news/pr-24-33/

 

[PaTrainFan]

Details on Amtrak's filing against UP with the STB from Trains.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...ddress-most-causes-for-sunset-limited-delays/