Union Pacific & The STB

[JWM]

https://www.railwayage.com/regulato...tion-into-substandard-sunset-limited-service.
Above is a link to a "Railway Age" article today regarding a STB hearing concerning the horrible performance of the "Sunset Limited". I second this and propose that stiff fines be levied on the carriers who host the trains that consistently force them onto sidings for passing freight trains. Schedules could be improved and on time performance would help attract passengers. Also, the "Sunset Limited" should go to daily scheduling as well. How fast can the shops get the Superliners on the sidelines back into operation to achieve this. Enough. Get going and do it now.

 

[west point]

Not going to be easy. UP has too many sidings too short for its land barges. So, any Amtrak behind one cannot pass the barge until it finally gets a siding long enough and Amtrak can pass on the main or siding depending on dispatcher.
Oh then it is the opposite direction barge will have to pass with Amtrak patiently (?) waiting behind the one it had been following.

 

[JWM]

Not going to be easy. UP has too many sidings too short for its land barges. So, any Amtrak behind one cannot pass the barge until it finally gets a siding long enough and Amtrak can pass on the main or siding depending on dispatcher.
Oh then it is the opposite direction barge will have to pass with Amtrak patiently (?) waiting behind the one it had been following.

Many years ago, and someone help me with this, the Southern Pacific studied electrifying the El Paso- Los Angeles portion of the Sunset-Golden State route and making it double track all the way. What a difference that would have made. Today, with growing traffic, UP has to invest in siding and track upgrades to maintain even the dismal service for Amatrak.

 

[mlanoue]

Is that route mostly single track?

 

[JWM]

A lot apparently.

 

[NES28]

FRA SW Regional Plan a few years ago found that LA-PHX true HSR route would be profitable. Clearly, this could not share track with freight. Logical route would follow I-10 between Coachella and Phoenix, bypassing Yuma.

 

[GDRRiley]

Is that route mostly single track?

CA into most of AZ is nearly all double except around Yuma for ~30 miles
UP has been trying to get the state to pay for a 3rd track from Colton to Cochella so we can run a few RT daily for pax. Which is just estimated at 2B for the 80 miles.

 

[GDRRiley]

Not going to be easy. UP has too many sidings too short for its land barges. So, any Amtrak behind one cannot pass the barge until it finally gets a siding long enough and Amtrak can pass on the main or siding depending on dispatcher.
Oh then it is the opposite direction barge will have to pass with Amtrak patiently (?) waiting behind the one it had been following.

Well its time for force UP to spend some of its massive piles of money on longer passing tracks or and I know this is crazy for a class 1 but more double and triple track for miles on end. UP even knows how to do it they just refuse to spend the money on this route

 

[daybeers]

Fines are a bandaid solution; just nationalize it!

 

[zephyr17]

Fines are a bandaid solution; just nationalize it!

 

[daybeers]

I mean, that's truly the only real solution to the freight rail mess here.

 

[jis]

I mean, that's truly the only real solution to the freight rail mess here.

Teleportation is the other one, perhaps even more attractive but just slightly less likely to come to pass anytime soon

 

[BlackDiamond]

CA into most of AZ is nearly all double except around Yuma for ~30 miles
UP has been trying to get the state to pay for a 3rd track from Colton to Cochella so we can run a few RT daily for pax. Which is just estimated at 2B for the 80 miles.

25 million a mile seems a bit excessive., especially for adding a track to an existing right of way.

 

[ShiningTimeStL]

Teleportation is the other one, perhaps even more attractive but just slightly less likely to come to pass anytime soon

I dunno man, it happened real quick during WWI, and then later Conrail was a thing for a while. Could easily happen again during a war with China, or if service simply completely collapses on its own (just as likely, if not more). The current state of our railroads is a massive national security liability. How can we move armored divisions coast to coast in the event of an attack if a small town can't even keep its water safe because a railcar went 300 miles in the wrong direction?

One of these days, a wildfire or an earthquake in California is going to kill thousands of people trapped in highway traffic, and only then will we maybe realize the true depth of our sins.

 

[BlackDiamond]

I dunno man, it happened real quick during WWI, and then later Conrail was a thing for a while. Could easily happen again during a war with China, or if service simply completely collapses on its own (just as likely, if not more). The current state of our railroads is a massive national security liability. How can we move armored divisions coast to coast in the event of an attack if a small town can't even keep its water safe because a railcar went 300 miles in the wrong direction?

One of these days, a wildfire or an earthquake in California is going to kill thousands of people trapped in highway traffic, and only then will we maybe realize the true depth of our sins.

But Conrail was always intended as a temporary thing to get the railroad back on its feet then turn it over to private enterprise, which is what happened.

It is useful to look around the world and see how many countries that previously nationalized their railroads are now looking at open access and bringing in other operators, some public and some privately owned.

To get back to the specific case of UP and the Sunset, all Amtrak wants is to run things on time which should be doable working with a private company. We shouldn't need to own the whole damn railroad to accomplish this. I think in the end things will sort themselves out since PSR and the problem of too short sidings is affecting freight shipments as well and that will start to impact the bottom line.

 

[jis]

To get back to the specific case of UP and the Sunset, all Amtrak wants is to run things on time which should be doable working with a private company. We shouldn't need to own the whole damn railroad to accomplish this. I think in the end things will sort themselves out since PSR and the problem of too short sidings is affecting freight shipments as well and that will start to impact the bottom line.

One thing that people also seem to miss is that merely having a nationalized system does not mean everything works wonderfully. Even in the nationalized systems often the prestigious trains do well but the lowly trains do pretty miserably. Ultimately there is no substitute for good planning execution, public or private.

The core problem with the current breed of fright railroads is the perpetuation of the lie underlying PSR. Running a railroad on precise schedule should not have much to do with running ridicuolusly long trains on inadequate infrastructure with insufficient staff. That is just plain old fashioned poor management trying to make itself look good through marketing literature with not much to actually back it up. The day of reckoning will come sooner rather than later on this one I think.

 

[zephyr17]

I mean, that's truly the only real solution to the freight rail mess here.

And it is never going to happen.

 

[railiner]

But Conrail was always intended as a temporary thing to get the railroad back on its feet then turn it over to private enterprise, which is what happened.

It is useful to look around the world and see how many countries that previously nationalized their railroads are now looking at open access and bringing in other operators, some public and some privately owned.

To get back to the specific case of UP and the Sunset, all Amtrak wants is to run things on time which should be doable working with a private company. We shouldn't need to own the whole damn railroad to accomplish this. I think in the end things will sort themselves out since PSR and the problem of too short sidings is affecting freight shipments as well and that will start to impact the bottom line.

One thing that people also seem to miss is that merely having a nationalized system does not mean everything works wonderfully. Even in the nationalized systems often the prestigious trains do well but the lowly trains do pretty miserably. Ultimately there is no substitute for good planning execution, public or private.

The core problem with the current breed of fright railroads is the perpetuation of the lie underlying PSR. Running a railroad on precise schedule should not have much to do with running ridicuolusly long trains on inadequate infrastructure with insufficient staff. That is just plain old fashioned poor management trying to make itself look good through marketing literature with not much to actually back it up. The day of reckoning will come sooner rather than later on this one I think.

Maybe not nationalization, but more FRA regulations or mandates might be a compromise solution…for example, a limit on the maximum length of freight trains, to the prevailing capacity of sidings?

 

[GDRRiley]

25 million a mile seems a bit excessive., especially for adding a track to an existing right of way.

Thats the number we got. it should be under 3m a mile unless I'm missing some major complex structures.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Fines are a bandaid solution; just nationalize it!

And it is never going to happen.

It's easy! No, it's impossible! Two sides of the same coin that lead to the same outcome.

 

[Anderson]

Fines are a bandaid solution; just nationalize it!

You know, it occurs to me - if the fines were substantial and they went into a passenger rail fund/infrastructure improvement fund to deal with the issues at hand...

*whistles innocently*

Maybe not nationalization, but more FRA regulations or mandates might be a compromise solution…for example, a limit on the maximum length of freight trains, to the prevailing capacity of sidings?

I think something in this vein might work. The issue is that it's quite possible to "properly" plan an operation where longer-than-siding trains don't interfere with Amtrak operations if the trains are scheduled well out of the way of one another. And of course, it's possible to mess things up even if your trains are the right length and so on if you get too clever with crew utilization.

I've made the point a few times over the years, but one of Amtrak's problems is (ironically) running too few trains on most routes to "matter" as a customer. A once-a-day passenger train is simply annoying for the dispatchers to deal with. A once-an-hour passenger train is suddenly your biggest customer on a given line most of the time. You might not be able to get to the latter point in too many cases, but I think it's illustrative of how you get to a reasonable point for operations (and part of why I'll often default to "run a bunch of trains on a given line" versus "serve a bunch of lines with 1-2x/day trains").

 

[Anderson]

Thats the number we got. it should be under 3m a mile unless I'm missing some major complex structures.

I've heard $5m/mile is about right for Class 5 track, but I do have to wonder if there aren't some serious ROW squeezes causing trouble somewhere? Either of the "this was never triple track" variety, the "we realigned the tracks and now there's no room on the correct side" variety, or the ever-popular "Gee, we sold off the land and now we don't have space" variety.

[As to structures, I wonder if there might not be some major grade crossing closures thrown in. Those can add up rather quickly.]

Still, I agree that $25m/mile is excessive.

 

[GDRRiley]

I've heard $5m/mile is about right for Class 5 track, but I do have to wonder if there aren't some serious ROW squeezes causing trouble somewhere? Either of the "this was never triple track" variety, the "we realigned the tracks and now there's no room on the correct side" variety, or the ever-popular "Gee, we sold off the land and now we don't have space" variety.

Thats on the expensive side
this is from HDR on the coast line improvement plans back in 2021. Even if its 300$/ft not including signals ect thats just under 1.6m a mile. Concrete ties would be more but still should be under 2m a mile

 

[Anderson]

Thats on the expensive side
this is from HDR on the coast line improvement plans back in 2021. Even if its 300$/ft not including signals ect thats just under 1.6m a mile. Concrete ties would be more but still should be under 2m a mile

View attachment 31281

I think there's probably some assumption of significant work grading, etc. It might not involve massive construction works, but even redoing a grade crossing here or doing some filling in on the sides there could probably add quite a bit to the bill. [Also, that indicates 50% relay, and wouldn't this involve 100% being laid?]

 

[George Harris]

I dunno man, it happened real quick during WWI, and then later Conrail was a thing for a while. Could easily happen again during a war with China, or if service simply completely collapses on its own (just as likely, if not more). The current state of our railroads is a massive national security liability. How can we move armored divisions coast to coast in the event of an attack if a small town can't even keep its water safe because a railcar went 300 miles in the wrong direction?

True for WW1. However, notice it was not done for WW2, despite having a federal administration much more inclined toward that sort of stuff. Most of the people that would have been involved in that decision for WW2 had memories of how it did not work near as well as anticipated during WW1, so they did not want it to happen again.