Upgrading tracks for Amtrak

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DET63

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How much does it really cost a freight railroad company to upgrade a track for Amtrak service? Doesn't an upgraded track for passenger trains also result in a track over which freight trains can move more safely and efficiently (e.g., more or longer sidings, or even double- or multiple-tracking; improved railroad crossings, with better gates and signals; upgraded signals in formerly dark territory; larger loading gauges at tunnels, bridges, and stations; etc.)?

Given all of this (possibly), do freight companies sometimes hold out on making improvements to tracks if they think there is a possibility Amtrak will want to use them (and thus pay for the upgrades)? What motivates the bean-counters at the railroad companies? Short-term profits? Long-term profits? The common good?
 
How much does it really cost a freight railroad company to upgrade a track for Amtrak service? Doesn't an upgraded track for passenger trains also result in a track over which freight trains can move more safely and efficiently (e.g., more or longer sidings, or even double- or multiple-tracking; improved railroad crossings, with better gates and signals; upgraded signals in formerly dark territory; larger loading gauges at tunnels, bridges, and stations; etc.)?
Given all of this (possibly), do freight companies sometimes hold out on making improvements to tracks if they think there is a possibility Amtrak will want to use them (and thus pay for the upgrades)? What motivates the bean-counters at the railroad companies? Short-term profits? Long-term profits? The common good?

Freight does not normally move at speeds over 45 mph, so entire road bed has to be done differently, same with signals, then crossing need upgrading to accomodate higher speeds.

It pays for railroads to try to recover any cost on upgrading to Federal Government.
 
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I wonder how many times freight railroad companies have been reluctant to upgrade tracks, hoping to get Amtrak (and thus the feds) to pay for it, only to let them deteriorate so badly that, when Amtrak decided to consider operating trains over the tracks, they were beyond repair or even completely out of service.
 
How much does it really cost a freight railroad company to upgrade a track for Amtrak service? Doesn't an upgraded track for passenger trains also result in a track over which freight trains can move more safely and efficiently (e.g., more or longer sidings, or even double- or multiple-tracking; improved railroad crossings, with better gates and signals; upgraded signals in formerly dark territory; larger loading gauges at tunnels, bridges, and stations; etc.)?
Given all of this (possibly), do freight companies sometimes hold out on making improvements to tracks if they think there is a possibility Amtrak will want to use them (and thus pay for the upgrades)? What motivates the bean-counters at the railroad companies? Short-term profits? Long-term profits? The common good?

Freight does not normally move at speeds over 45 mph, so entire road bed has to be done differently, same with signals, then crossing need upgrading to accomodate higher speeds.

It pays for railroads to try to recover any cost on upgrading to Federal Government.
Where'd you get 45mph from?!? NS habitually out runs me on HWY 11 in Vance, AL doing 55-60mph. I had to do 70 to keep even with a double-stack one day.
 
Where'd you get 45mph from?!? NS habitually out runs me on HWY 11 in Vance, AL doing 55-60mph. I had to do 70 to keep even with a double-stack one day.
On average the speeds are below 45 mph on majority of all freight lines, exceptions are lines already having passenger traffic.

my best guestimate is 90% of all tracks are 45 mph or lower, .

Add to that that todays freight carriers are more fuel sensitive than in a hurry .
 
Where'd you get 45mph from?!? NS habitually out runs me on HWY 11 in Vance, AL doing 55-60mph. I had to do 70 to keep even with a double-stack one day.
On average the speeds are below 45 mph on majority of all freight lines, exceptions are lines already having passenger traffic.

my best guestimate is 90% of all tracks are 45 mph or lower, .

Add to that that todays freight carriers are more fuel sensitive than in a hurry .
Ahhh not quite. The BNSF main out of Chicago is rated at 65, (CORA), for freight and 70-79 for passenger. Average speeds don't really have much to do with it. The maximum speed is the issue which Freights do in fact run whenever they can, particularly since traffic levels are lower there are a whole lot more 'clear signals' out there. While an Engineer may not be required to do the max speed in a given division they typically run pretty close to it. The signal indication, (in most cases), decides the speed and there is a whole lot of 65-70 on both BNSF and the UP. Try to go 10mph slower than the indication of the signal. That crew will get a call from the dispatcher asking what the problem is.

That being said I don't really know how much it costs the Freights to keep the tracks at passenger speed but I suspect its not that much, (if any), if they are already running at 65-70 since passenger speeds are usually posted on the right of way at 5-10 mph higher than the posted freight speed. Now if a given division or sub division runs at say 45 and Amtrak wants to do 79 then that is an entirely different story and would obviously cost much more.
 
Frequently on busy lines the cost is not upgrading the existing track, but addition of sidings or improvements to existing sidings and addition of higher speed turnouts into and out of the sidings. This cost can be substantial.

Many of the high densidty lines already have 70 mph speed limits for freights, but if you read the details in the employee timetables, you will find that this limit only applies to "hot" freights and such train classes as double stacks. Coal trains and such will usually be limited to 50 mph or less.

If the track is somewhat low volume, chances are it will need a general upgrading. While there are those that like to argue that any track will a freight speed limit of over 40 mph also permits, per FRA track standards, a passenger train speed limit of up to 80 mph, the reality is not so. I track with a 40 mph freight speed limit migh be saffe so far a derailments are concerned for 80 mph, but the ride quality would be horrible.

Then there are such things as, for example, the CSX "Panhandle Line" between Flomaton and Tallahassee that are limited to 59 mph due to the lack of a full signal system, even though the track condition likely would support 79 mph. Since in general the CSX freight limit is under 60 mph or less, ex ACL "A" line excepted, and for most lines 50 mph or less, there is not incentive for the CSX to add signals to this line to raise the freight speed above the 49 mph that is permitted for freight on unsignaled. track.
 
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Track Speed is based on track class. the two biggest thing that go into the Inspection and Grade Crossing:

Class of Track -- Maximum Allowable Speed for Freight Trains -- Maximum Allowable Speed for Passenger Trains

Class 1 -- 10 mph --15 mph

Class 2 -- 25 mph -- 30 mph

Class 3 -- 40 mph -- 60 mph

Class 4 -- 60 mph -- 80 mph

Class 5 -- 80 mph --90 mph

Class 6 -- N/A -- 110 mph

Class 7 -- N/A -- 125 mph

Class 8 -- N/A -- 150 mph

Class 9 -- N/A --200 mph

Class of Track -- Minimum Track Inspection Frequency

Excepted Track -- Weekly

Class 1,2, and 3 -- Mainline and Sidings

Weekly, or twice weekly if the track carries passenger trains or more than 10 million gross tons of traffic during the preceding year.

Class 4 and 5 -- Twice Weekly

Class 6,7, and 8 -- Twice Weekly

Class 9 -- Three Times a Week

There is also standards for types of grade crossing (Lights, Gates, Quad Gates) for each Class
 
Track Speed is based on track class. the two biggest thing that go into the Inspection and Grade Crossing:
Suggest that you look at 49CFR213. You will find that there is far more to it than what you have listed.

Just a few:

Allowble defective ties per unit of track length

Allowable deficiencies in crosslevel, gauge, alignment both horizontal and vertical.

Allowable deficiencies at joints.

And these are just off the top of my head.
 
Given all of this (possibly), do freight companies sometimes hold out on making improvements to tracks if they think there is a possibility Amtrak will want to use them (and thus pay for the upgrades)? What motivates the bean-counters at the railroad companies? Short-term profits? Long-term profits? The common good?
I am sure that the tracks currently meet all the basic needs of the host freight railroad. Any improvements would benefit mostly the guest railroad, Amtrak.

Has Amtrak ever offered to greatly increase their usage fees, if the host railroad made improvements just for Amtrak? I doubt it.

What motivates the stock holders of the host railroads? I am sure what motivates the stock holders of any company. That's the American way.

IMHO, the bottom line is if Amtrak is unhappy with the host railroad's track, Amtrak is free to go use someone else's track.
 
Track Speed is based on track class. the two biggest thing that go into the Inspection and Grade Crossing:
…………………………………

There is also standards for types of grade crossing (Lights, Gates, Quad Gates) for each Class

You also forgot the signal system requirements. In order to go beyond 80 mph, a train must have one of the following: Automatic Train Stop, Cab Signals, or Automatic Train Control. This requirement will become moot with the installation of Positive Train Control, I think.
 
The track safety standards run to 55 pages. here are the headings, only:

PART 213—TRACK SAFETY STANDARDS

Subpart A—General

213.1 Scope of part.

213.2 Preemptive effect.

213.3 Application.

213.4 Excepted track.

213.5 Responsibility for compliance.

213.7 Designation of qualified persons to supervise certain renewals and inspect track.

213.9 Classes of track: operating speed limits.

213.11 Restoration or renewal of track under traffic conditions.

213.13 Measuring track not under load.

213.15 Penalties.

213.17 Waivers.

213.19 Information collection.

Subpart B—Roadbed

213.31 Scope.

213.33 Drainage.

213.37 Vegetation.

Subpart C—Track Geometry

213.51 Scope.

213.53 Gage.

213.55 Alinement.

213.57 Curves; elevation and speed limitations.

213.59 Elevation of curved track; runoff.

213.63 Track surface.

Subpart D—Track Structure

213.101 Scope.

213.103 Ballast; general.

213.109 Crossties.

213.110 Gage restraint measurement systems.

213.113 Defective rails.

213.115 Rail end mismatch.

213.119 Continuous welded rail (CWR); general.

213.121 Rail joints.

213.122 Torch cut rail.

213.123 Tie plates.

213.127 Rail fastening systems.

213.133 Turnouts and track crossings generally.

213.135 Switches.

213.137 Frogs.

213.139 Spring rail frogs.

213.141 Self-guarded frogs.

213.143 Frog guard rails and guard faces; gage.

Subpart E—Track Appliances and Track-Related Devices

213.201 Scope.

213.205 Derails

Subpart F—Inspection

213.231 Scope.

213.233 Track inspections.

213.235 Inspection of switches, track crossings, and lift rail assemblies or other transition devices on moveable bridges.

213.237 Inspection of rail.

213.239 Special inspections.

213.241 Inspection records.

Subpart G—Train Operations at Track Classes 6 and Higher

213.301 Scope of subpart.

213.303 Responsibility for compliance.

213.305 Designation of qualified individuals; general qualifications.

213.307 Class of track: operating speed limits.

213.309 Restoration or renewal of track under traffic conditions.

213.311 Measuring track not under load.

213.317 Waivers.

213.319 Drainage.

213.321 Vegetation.

213.323 Track gage.

213.327 Alinement.

213.329 Curves, elevation and speed limitations.

213.331 Track surface.

213.333 Automated vehicle inspection systems.

213.334 Ballast; general.

213.335 Crossties.

213.337 Defective rails.

213.339 Inspection of rail in service.

213.341 Initial inspection of new rail and welds.

213.343 Continuous welded rail (CWR).

213.345 Vehicle qualification testing.

213.347 Automotive or railroad crossings at grade.

213.349 Rail end mismatch.

213.351 Rail joints.

213.352 Torch cut rail.

213.353 Turnouts, crossovers, and lift rail assemblies or other transition devices on moveable bridges.

213.355 Frog guard rails and guard faces; gage.

213.357 Derails.

213.359 Track stiffness.

213.361 Right of way.

213.365 Visual inspections.

213.367 Special inspections.

213.369 Inspection records.

APPENDIX A TO PART 213—MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE CURVING SPEEDS

APPENDIX B TO PART 213—SCHEDULE OF CIVIL PENALTIES

APPENDIX C TO PART 213—STATEMENT OF AGENCY POLICY ON THE SAFETY OF RAILROAD BRIDGES

Subsection 213.347 says all there is to say about road crossings from a track standard perspective in three short parpgraphs.

The foregoing is just track.

Part 234 spends 12 pages talking about road crossing signals without saying much if anything about where they are required.

Then, there is the 49 page PART 236—RULES, STANDARDS, AND INSTRUCTIONS GOVERNING THE INSTALLATION, INSPECTION, MAINTENANCE, AND REPAIR OF SIGNAL AND TRAIN CONTROL SYSTEMS, DEVICES, AND APPLIANCES

and much much more.
 
I was answering the question about maintenance cost assuming the track was already upgrade. I did forget about a upgraded signal system would be higher maintenance.
 
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I think that what it all comes down to is the fact that there's really no one answer to the original question ... there are just way too many variables. Every specific case is going to be different, depending on geography, traffic density, current track condition, and other factors.

I doubt that there have been too many instances where a railroad has deferred maintenance or improvement projects in anticipation of getting a big fat check from Amtrak ... in part, because everyone knows that Amtrak doesn't have that kind of money to throw around. It might be more likely to have happened in dealings with newly-formed commuter railroad systems, which often DO have significant funds for capital improvements.

And it's important to remember that the Class 1 railroads still have a legal obligation to run Amtrak trains ... a consequence of their being allowed to discontinue their own passenger service in 1971. It's way more complicated than simply having the railroads tell Amtrak how much money they want, or else.
 
And it's important to remember that the Class 1 railroads still have a legal obligation to run Amtrak trains ... a consequence of their being allowed to discontinue their own passenger service in 1971.
Yet I'll bet there are many places where Class 1 railroads had passenger service in 1971 that have not seen a passenger train since Amtrak came into being.
 
And it's important to remember that the Class 1 railroads still have a legal obligation to run Amtrak trains ... a consequence of their being allowed to discontinue their own passenger service in 1971.
Yet I'll bet there are many places where Class 1 railroads had passenger service in 1971 that have not seen a passenger train since Amtrak came into being.
And quite a few of these lines are now abandoned or sold off to short lines who, even if it were argued that they had the obligation to carry the train, would be doing it at 30 mph. Even where the lines still exist, the station facilities are for the most part long gone.
 
On average the speeds are below 45 mph on majority of all freight lines, exceptions are lines already having passenger traffic.my best guestimate is 90% of all tracks are 45 mph or lower, .

Add to that that todays freight carriers are more fuel sensitive than in a hurry .
Thats not true at all. Most signaled frieght lines on the East coast are 50mph, Intermoadal can run 60mph. Certain types cars like bulkhead flats and individual hoppers are resticeted to 45mph. Curves and small towns are what drops the speeds down.
 
On average the speeds are below 45 mph on majority of all freight lines, exceptions are lines already having passenger traffic.my best guestimate is 90% of all tracks are 45 mph or lower, .

Add to that that todays freight carriers are more fuel sensitive than in a hurry .
Thats not true at all. Most signaled frieght lines on the East coast are 50mph, Intermoadal can run 60mph. Certain types cars like bulkhead flats and individual hoppers are resticeted to 45mph. Curves and small towns are what drops the speeds down.
I'm with Dutch on this one. Are many of the MAIN LINES rated for 60 MPH for freight, yes. However, if you look at all the mileage in the systems many of these are rated at speeds that are in lower brackets. I wish I could throw out firm numbers here, but again my life is in boxes right now. There are many places where you don't have signal systems in place for large stretches of mainline which inevitably holds down your maximum speed permitted. West of Tallahassee you don't have signals for a long stretch (til somewhere in Mississippi IIRC). This is still a high density line that sees 20-25 trains a day. But you've got a lot of mileage that moves a lot of freight that doesn't have signals.
 
I'm sure you can find isolated stretches, or even significant lengths, of track rated for 65-70 mph, but I would think that the majority of track is much slower. Let's also remember that, if part of the train is in a place where the speed limit is lower, the engineer has to wait for the rear of the train to clear to the slow stretch, irrespective of the speed limit at the front of the train.
 
I'm sure you can find isolated stretches, or even significant lengths, of track rated for 65-70 mph, but I would think that the majority of track is much slower. Let's also remember that, if part of the train is in a place where the speed limit is lower, the engineer has to wait for the rear of the train to clear to the slow stretch, irrespective of the speed limit at the front of the train.
Aloha

I am not sorry, ROFLOL, but I must make the comment that I hope the Engineer keeps the front and back at the same Speed :rolleyes:
 
I'm with Dutch on this one. Are many of the MAIN LINES rated for 60 MPH for freight, yes. However, if you look at all the mileage in the systems many of these are rated at speeds that are in lower brackets. I wish I could throw out firm numbers here, but again my life is in boxes right now. There are many places where you don't have signal systems in place for large stretches of mainline which inevitably holds down your maximum speed permitted. West of Tallahassee you don't have signals for a long stretch (til somewhere in Mississippi IIRC). This is still a high density line that sees 20-25 trains a day. But you've got a lot of mileage that moves a lot of freight that doesn't have signals.
Are most high density mainlines operated with track warrants, no. and even under track warrants you can run 40.
 
On average the speeds are below 45 mph on majority of all freight lines, exceptions are lines already having passenger traffic.my best guestimate is 90% of all tracks are 45 mph or lower, .

Add to that that todays freight carriers are more fuel sensitive than in a hurry .
Thats not true at all. Most signaled frieght lines on the East coast are 50mph, Intermoadal can run 60mph. Certain types cars like bulkhead flats and individual hoppers are resticeted to 45mph. Curves and small towns are what drops the speeds down.
LOL, Small towns lowering speeds? The Crescent does most of its 80mph running through small towns. NS has taken up a new policy of "speed deters people from running through crossings", so they are ramping up speeds through towns. Also the Crescent's route like many others are straightest in the towns, simply because the towns are in the flat areas, and were built around the railroad which put its facilities on flat level ground where yards and stations could be built.

As for track class its up to the freight railroad as to what class their track is rated as. In other words if NS wants to say the Crescent's route is Class 9 for 200mph passenger operations it can, but everywhere there is a violation of that standard a slow order must be issued to meet the standard the track is currently in. That's why slow orders exist, anywhere you have a defect the railroad must operate trains over that defect at the speed that would be allowed for the track class that would accept that defect.

NS's max speeds per a signal maintainer at Tuscaloosa are:

Local freights that stop to pick up/drop off cars and do yard shunting is 50mph.

Mixed/Manifest Frieghts are allowed 55mph.

Unit trains, i.e. coal trains are allowed 60mph.

Unit trains equipped with ECP brakes are allowed 70mph.

Double Stacks/Piggybacks/Autoracks are allowed 70mph.

Amtrak is allowed 79mph.

NS executive train/FRA train is allowed 79mph if being run with the heritage carbody/cowl diesels, 70mph with freight engines.

RBB circus train 70mph.

Hi rail trucks 79mph at crew's discretion, he said going over 55-60mph will make the trucks bounce and sway to the point you think they are going to de-rail.

He also said the Crescent route is declared by NS to be FRA Class 5 but is maintained to a minimum of Class 4. Generally the first few months after major track work it is class 5 after about a year it has generally deteriorated to class 4 and slow orders are issued to Class 4 standards. He said as of right now there are places between Birmingham and Tuscaloosa that have deteriorated to class 3 and Amtrak is being slow ordered to 60mph in those areas until track work wraps up in mid February.
 
On average the speeds are below 45 mph on majority of all freight lines, exceptions are lines already having passenger traffic.my best guestimate is 90% of all tracks are 45 mph or lower, .

Add to that that todays freight carriers are more fuel sensitive than in a hurry .
Thats not true at all. Most signaled frieght lines on the East coast are 50mph, Intermoadal can run 60mph. Certain types cars like bulkhead flats and individual hoppers are resticeted to 45mph. Curves and small towns are what drops the speeds down.
LOL, Small towns lowering speeds? The Crescent does most of its 80mph running through small towns. NS has taken up a new policy of "speed deters people from running through crossings", so they are ramping up speeds through towns. Also the Crescent's route like many others are straightest in the towns, simply because the towns are in the flat areas, and were built around the railroad which put its facilities on flat level ground where yards and stations could be built.

As for track class its up to the freight railroad as to what class their track is rated as. In other words if NS wants to say the Crescent's route is Class 9 for 200mph passenger operations it can, but everywhere there is a violation of that standard a slow order must be issued to meet the standard the track is currently in. That's why slow orders exist, anywhere you have a defect the railroad must operate trains over that defect at the speed that would be allowed for the track class that would accept that defect.

NS's max speeds per a signal maintainer at Tuscaloosa are:

Local freights that stop to pick up/drop off cars and do yard shunting is 50mph.

Mixed/Manifest Frieghts are allowed 55mph.

Unit trains, i.e. coal trains are allowed 60mph.

Unit trains equipped with ECP brakes are allowed 70mph.

Double Stacks/Piggybacks/Autoracks are allowed 70mph.

Amtrak is allowed 79mph.

NS executive train/FRA train is allowed 79mph if being run with the heritage carbody/cowl diesels, 70mph with freight engines.

RBB circus train 70mph.

Hi rail trucks 79mph at crew's discretion, he said going over 55-60mph will make the trucks bounce and sway to the point you think they are going to de-rail.

He also said the Crescent route is declared by NS to be FRA Class 5 but is maintained to a minimum of Class 4. Generally the first few months after major track work it is class 5 after about a year it has generally deteriorated to class 4 and slow orders are issued to Class 4 standards. He said as of right now there are places between Birmingham and Tuscaloosa that have deteriorated to class 3 and Amtrak is being slow ordered to 60mph in those areas until track work wraps up in mid February.
Tell your maintainer buddy to go and look at the System Timetable. No frieght on NS runs 70mph, pigs an auto racks are 60, theres no difference between a local and a manifest they both run 50. The only thing you got right was the 79mph for Amtrak.
 
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