VIA pandemic service reductions, restorations and consist (2022)

[Urban Sky]

It doesn't serve those communities properly if they aren't able to get from their communities to their destinations, such as Toronto. It's a very non-service-oriented attitude to say "Well, you can go to Winnipeg but nowhere else." Very Tsarist.

Both, Ontario Northland Motor Coach Services and Air Canada, link the terminal cities of both services, Winnipeg and Sudbury, with Toronto. I know this is a forum for rail fans, but other modes than rail and car do exist, even here in "Tsarist" Canada...

 

[neroden]

Both, Ontario Northland Motor Coach Services and Air Canada, link the terminal cities of both services, Winnipeg and Sudbury, with Toronto. I know this is a forum for rail fans, but other modes than rail and car do exist, even here in "Tsarist" Canada...

It does show an anti-train attitude, doesn't it?

 

[John Bredin]

I was looking at VIA's Covid-reduced schedules, and apparently Napanee and Port Hope, ON, on the Toronto-Kingston-Ottawa route have "won" the You Can't Get Theah From Heah award. Both towns have two trains daily eastward from Toronto to Ottawa but only one train a day on weekends only westward to Toronto. And if you looked at a map and thought "Go east to Kingston and then west from there" the reduced schedule is almost perfectly MIStimed to give only one chance to do that, with a layover of about five hours.

It seems like VIA dropped trains without thinking about stops that every train doesn't stop at. It could add stops to one or two of the westward weekday trains for the duration of the reduction, but that would entail actually adjusting the schedule instead of mechanically dropping columns from the timetable and leaving the remaining columns untouched. To be fair, I think Amtrak did this too with some of the 2020 corridor Covid cuts (the Wolverine service with its morning express train in one direction comes to mind), but the mismatches weren't so egregious.

 

[John Bredin]

I was looking at VIA's Covid-reduced schedules, and apparently Napanee and Port Hope, ON, on the Toronto-Kingston-Ottawa route have "won" the You Can't Get Theah From Heah award. Both towns have two trains daily eastward from Toronto to Ottawa but only one train a day on weekends only westward to Toronto. And if you looked at a map and thought "Go east to Kingston and then west from there" the reduced schedule is almost perfectly MIStimed to give only one chance to do that, with a layover of about five hours.

It seems like VIA dropped trains without thinking about stops that every train doesn't stop at. It could add stops to one or two of the westward weekday trains for the duration of the reduction, but that would entail actually adjusting the schedule instead of mechanically dropping columns from the timetable and leaving the remaining columns untouched. To be fair, I think Amtrak did this too with some of the 2020 corridor Covid cuts (the Wolverine service with its morning express train in one direction comes to mind), but the mismatches weren't so egregious.

I may be a vexatious pain in the *** but I decided rather than idly grousing about this on the Internet to send a message to VIA asking about this oddity. I will post if I get a substantive answer.

 

[Urban Sky]

It does show an anti-train attitude, doesn't it?

If anything, it's an anti-bus attitude, because as much as I prefer trains and would love to explore every corner of this country by rail, as a taxpayer I'm realistic enough to concede that buses offer much better value-for-money, except where you have to transport very high passenger loads, and that clearly favors bus services .

Just have a look at these figures, comparing the financials of VIA's Corridor rail operations with those of Ontario Northland's bus operations:

Metric	VIA Rail (2018, entire network)	VIA Rail (2018, Corridor only)	Ontario Northland (2018, Motor Coach Services only)	VIA Rail (rail) vs. ONTC (bus)
Scheduled timetable volume	10,983,773 km	8,701,131 km	3,821,706 km	2.9 (Corridor: 2.3) times
Direct operating expenses	$328.8 million	$217.0 million	$11.6 million	28.3 (18.7) times
- per timetable-km	$29.94	$24.94	$3.04	9.9 (8.2) times
Fully-allocated operating expenses	$665.2 million	$448.8 million	$14.5 million	45.9 (31.0) times
- per timetable-km	$60.56	$51.58	$3.80	15.9 (13.6) times
Operating deficit (Subsidy)	$272.6 million	$143.4 million	$3.6 million	76.5 (40.3) times
- per timetable-km	$24.82	$16.48	$0.93	26.7 (17.7) times

Compiled from: cross-post from previous posts on Urban Toronto, using figures from VIA Rail's Summary of the 2019-2023 Corporate Plan (pp. 18-22) and Annual Plan 2018 (p.9), as well as Ontario Northland's 2017-2018 Annual Report (p. 34)


As much as I personally hate myself whenever I have to take intercity buses, I can't stop myself when reading all these passenger rail proposals brought forward by fellow contributors like @Seaboard92 (I thought I had just seen him posting an interesting comparison of Canada's transcontinental network with that of the Trans-Siberian Railway just below your post, but did he delete it?) from imagining what kind of tightly knit intercity bus network could be funded if the required incremental subsidy need for such a passenger rail service expansion was instead used towards setting up a public nationwide bus service. Even though I'm still waiting for nothing more impatiently than HFR finally being approved and funded, I fault the current Prime Minister for nothing more than for letting his cabinet sit on its hands rather than saving Greyhound's routes and transferring them under a public agency like VIA Rail, but with a proper mandate and framework which allows federal and provincial governments to jointly fund the network according to their priorities...

 

[neroden]

Well, I think we can agree that it's fundamentally an anti-bus *and* anti-train attitude!

The attitude I see is "let them fly".

Thankfully this isn't the attitude of *city* governments in Canada, but it has been the federal government attitude.

 

[jiml]

Even though I'm still waiting for nothing more impatiently than HFR finally being approved and funded, I fault the current Prime Minister for nothing more than for letting his cabinet sit on its hands rather than saving Greyhound's routes and transferring them under a public agency like VIA Rail, but with a proper mandate and framework which allows federal and provincial governments to jointly fund the network according to their priorities...

You're not wrong. Federally, the priority is getting and keeping votes in urban areas, and the points in-between are unimportant. Limited stop HFR gets the most attention, the most media coverage, etc. (This is not a criticism of any one political party either, since Canada's electoral system favors an urban focus and the result would be the same no matter which party was in power.) A robust national bus network that serves rural areas and their small towns is a money-pit - otherwise the private operators would still be in the picture. Regional bus networks that fill a niche can be successful, e.g. Maritime Bus, Ontario Northland, but even those that aren't fully government-supported sometimes require a shot in the arm: Maritime Bus gets $720,000 in funding to operate routes in northern New Brunswick - Orillia News (orilliamatters.com)

 

[Seaboard92]

If anything, it's an anti-bus attitude, because as much as I prefer trains and would love to explore every corner of this country by rail, as a taxpayer I'm realistic enough to concede that buses offer much better value-for-money, except where you have to transport very high passenger loads, and that clearly favors bus services .

Just have a look at these figures, comparing the financials of VIA's Corridor rail operations with those of Ontario Northland's bus operations:

Metric	VIA Rail (2018, entire network)	VIA Rail (2018, Corridor only)	Ontario Northland (2018, Motor Coach Services only)	VIA Rail (rail) vs. ONTC (bus)
Scheduled timetable volume	10,983,773 km	8,701,131 km	3,821,706 km	2.9 (Corridor: 2.3) times
Direct operating expenses	$328.8 million	$217.0 million	$11.6 million	28.3 (18.7) times
- per timetable-km	$29.94	$24.94	$3.04	9.9 (8.2) times
Fully-allocated operating expenses	$665.2 million	$448.8 million	$14.5 million	45.9 (31.0) times
- per timetable-km	$60.56	$51.58	$3.80	15.9 (13.6) times
Operating deficit (Subsidy)	$272.6 million	$143.4 million	$3.6 million	76.5 (40.3) times
- per timetable-km	$24.82	$16.48	$0.93	26.7 (17.7) times

Compiled from: previous posts posted on Urban Toronto, using figures from VIA Rail's Summary of the Corporate Plan and Annual Plans 2017 and 2018, as well as Ontario Northland's 2017-2018 Annual Report (p. 34)


As much as I personally hate myself whenever I have to take intercity buses, I can't stop myself when reading all these passenger rail proposals brought forward by fellow contributors like @Seaboard92 (I thought I had just seen him posting an interesting comparison of Canada's transcontinental network with that of the Trans-Siberian Railway just below your post, but did he delete it?) from imagining what kind of tightly knit intercity bus network could be funded if the required incremental subsidy need for such a passenger rail service expansion was instead used towards setting up a public nationwide bus service. Even though I'm still waiting for nothing more impatiently than HFR finally being approved and funded, I fault the current Prime Minister for nothing more than for letting his cabinet sit on its hands rather than saving Greyhound's routes and transferring them under a public agency like VIA Rail, but with a proper mandate and framework which allows federal and provincial governments to jointly fund the network according to their priorities...

I did not delete it it was deemed off topic and deleted by the moderator. Even though if you ask me comparing the trans con Canadian routes to the Trans Siberian very much on topic because Canada is a country much like Russia it only has two mainlines across the country with a dense region around the area of most population. In Russia that is the Golden Ring while Canada is really just Quebec and Southern Ontario. What irks me is I took thirty minutes to make a good conclusive argument about the similarities and needs that required some timetable research. So I am somewhat upset that it was deleted.

But the basic point I made is this.

You have two mainlines across Canada the CN route which hits the following major cities or ridership draws Toronto, Greater Sudbury, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Edmonton, Jasper, and Vancouver.

The CP route hits these locations. Toronto, Greater Sudbury, Thunder Bay, Winnipeg, Brandon, Regina, Medicine Hat, Calgary, Banff/Lake Louise, Vancouver.

When you look at the two countries they are remarkably similar as most of the population lives in the same general line across the country with not much north or south of that. Partially because the further north you go the more inhospitable the climate is.

Now the Trans Siberian has a higher population on it than both the CN or CP routes but it's also like what twice the length.

I mean the Trans Siberian has Moskva, Yaroslavl, Kirov, Yekaterinburg, Tyumen, Omsk, Novosibirsk, Krasnoyarsk, Irkutsk, Ulan Ude, Chita, Khabarovsk, and Vladivostok. And a whole lot of nothing in between just like the CN route between Greater Sudbury and Winnipeg.

Now the Russians have some advantages the Canadians don't have namely RZD runs both the passengers and the freight, it's all double tracked, and electric. But over the entire length of the Trans Sib you have only two trains that run the full length (one of which is every other day), then from Moskva east you have several trains that run halfway ish or to one of the intermediates. From Omsk on to Vladivostok you gain an additional train that has a ton of thru cars on it (Basically imagine if the Canadian ran Winnipeg-Vancouver but with thru cars coming from Chicago, Churchill, Calgary, Medicine Hat, ETC) that train was massive it was at least 20 cars when I was on it (but when I boarded it was only 4). Then you have a few trains that run parts in the middle like the Adler-Tomsk Train.

So if we were making that about Canada that would be like having three-five trains a day over various portions of the route some with different stopping patterns and destinations. Now that would make it a much better for western Canada but I can't imagine it would draw enough ridership to make it work.

Now Russia has just as many airports and a well developed civil aviation sphere (arguably better than Canada and USA in terms of on board experience) and a well developed bus network. Now the roads are supposed to be super crappy but I didn't find them too terrible when I was on them in rural Siberia. Now Canada probably has better roads however I haven't been on them to prove it.

So making a Canada-Russia comparison I think is somewhat on topic when we are discussing VIA Rail and service expansion in the western provinces. I would say VIA has the better rolling stock, and the Canadian has a significantly better on board experience, but the staff are equal at both railroads.

As far as making an inter-city bus network in Canada I agree with you too it is needed. The trains can't service everywhere and you've lost a lot of branch lines that once had service, and even some of those don't make economic sense right now. But those people do need some form of a transport system. I think with Greyhound imploding that was a bad day for the citizens of Canada and the mobility especially in the rural areas.

Now I think VIA should also serve in some meaningful way to these smaller towns. Small towns need service in proportion to their needs, just like the larger metropolitan areas do as well.

 

[John Bredin]

I may be a vexatious pain in the *** but I decided rather than idly grousing about this on the Internet to send a message to VIA asking about this oddity. I will post if I get a substantive answer.

VIA responded to my email:

Since the beginning of the pandemic the health and safety of our passengers and employees have been our number one priority. VIA Rail announced on January 13th 2022, that given the impact on travel demand of tighter COVID-19 restrictions due to the rapid spreading of the Omicron Variant, VIA is temporarily reducing frequencies in the Québec City-Windsor corridor starting Wednesday, January 19, 2022.

This temporary service reduction in the Corridor has been carefully planned in order to continue to provide essential intercity service on all routes. As we continue to closely monitor the evolution of the pandemic, VIA Rail is ensuring that we can offer our customers options for essential travel in all regions of the country. There will be no reduction in frequencies for the moment on any other routes, but some on-board services have been modified.

This schedule was not "carefully planned," at least not on this particular point. While it may provide essential intercity service on all routes as stated, it clearly doesn't to all stations. Not being Canadian or familiar with the area, perhaps these two stops are sufficiently low-traffic to merit only weekend service, or indeed no service at all with Covid-reduced demand. But then why two trains every day in the other direction? That's clearly a mistake, not the result of conscious planning.

 

[Urban Sky]

VIA responded to my email:


This schedule was not "carefully planned," at least not on this particular point. While it may provide essential intercity service on all routes as stated, it clearly doesn't to all stations. Not being Canadian or familiar with the area, perhaps these two stops are sufficiently low-traffic to merit only weekend service, or indeed no service at all with Covid-reduced demand. But then why two trains every day in the other direction? That's clearly a mistake, not the result of conscious planning.

No worries, there are also Canadians familiar with the area who seem to agree with what you are saying:

Last week's press release claimed that "This temporary service reduction in the Corridor has been carefully planned in order to continue to provide essential intercity service on all routes." It's hard to see how stops by 2 westward vs. 14 eastward trains per week constitute careful planning.

https://groups.io/g/Canadian-Passen...,,,20,0,0,0::Created,,Napanee,20,2,0,88405185

 

[neroden]

I agree that the comparison of the Canadian transcontinental routes and the Trans-Siberian is appropriate; they are very similar in population structure (and history of colonization for that matter). On this matter, Russia has done better than Canada; they have always understood that maintaining the railway is necessary to keep the country intact.

This was an explicitly stated govenment reason for the First Canadian Transcontinental (CP) when it was built, stated both by John Macdonald and Alexander Mackenzie -- but more recent Canadian governments seem to have forgotten. And during a time of rising separatism, too. You'd think they'd recognize the importance of it but apparently not.

 

[Seaboard92]

I agree that the comparison of the Canadian transcontinental routes and the Trans-Siberian is appropriate; they are very similar in population structure (and history of colonization for that matter). On this matter, Russia has done better than Canada; they have always understood that maintaining the railway is necessary to keep the country intact.

This was an explicitly stated govenment reason for the First Canadian Transcontinental (CP) when it was built, stated both by John Macdonald and Alexander Mackenzie -- but more recent Canadian governments seem to have forgotten. And during a time of rising separatism, too. You'd think they'd recognize the importance of it but apparently not.

Don't forget part of the reason the CP was built on the routing it was built on was to prevent US Expansion into Canada. The original CP Main line in places is actually abandoned because it did not run thru Calgary. It ran via Crowsnest Pass and Kelowana.

I think it is a major disservice not to have service out towards Calgary and the closer to the border cities.

The thing about the comparison is it's very much true except you have the ability to go daily over the entire route. And any of the intermediates have more than one train a day to get between them. You have quite a few secondary trains that run half way from Moskva to the east, and one that picks up in Omsk and goes eastward. Combine that with some trains coming from other parts of European Russia going to the halfway points you have a decent service level.

To relate that to Canada it is like extending the Skeena to Winnipeg. And the Hudson Bay to like Thunder Bay or Toronto. And then throwing some other little trains in like Edmonton-Winnipeg.

 

[Urban Sky]

I was looking at VIA's Covid-reduced schedules, and apparently Napanee and Port Hope, ON, on the Toronto-Kingston-Ottawa route have "won" the You Can't Get Theah From Heah award. Both towns have two trains daily eastward from Toronto to Ottawa but only one train a day on weekends only westward to Toronto. And if you looked at a map and thought "Go east to Kingston and then west from there" the reduced schedule is almost perfectly MIStimed to give only one chance to do that, with a layover of about five hours.

It seems like VIA dropped trains without thinking about stops that every train doesn't stop at. It could add stops to one or two of the westward weekday trains for the duration of the reduction, but that would entail actually adjusting the schedule instead of mechanically dropping columns from the timetable and leaving the remaining columns untouched. To be fair, I think Amtrak did this too with some of the 2020 corridor Covid cuts (the Wolverine service with its morning express train in one direction comes to mind), but the mismatches weren't so egregious.

VIA responded to my email:


This schedule was not "carefully planned," at least not on this particular point. While it may provide essential intercity service on all routes as stated, it clearly doesn't to all stations. Not being Canadian or familiar with the area, perhaps these two stops are sufficiently low-traffic to merit only weekend service, or indeed no service at all with Covid-reduced demand. But then why two trains every day in the other direction? That's clearly a mistake, not the result of conscious planning.

No worries, there are also Canadians familiar with the area who seem to agree with what you are saying:
https://groups.io/g/Canadian-Passen...,,,20,0,0,0::Created,,Napanee,20,2,0,88405185

Rather coincidentally, I've seen that train #51 has been stopping at Port Hope since February 4, which restores the weekday westbound stop in Port Hope (but not Napanee):


Also, frequencies will increase again, as of March 1:
https://groups.io/g/Canadian-Passenger-Rail/message/93377

 

[Northwestern]

Here is a VIA train update from TRAINS magazine:

https://is.gd/JP5gNW
It looks like the Chateau sleepers, on the "Ocean", will return. Also, there will eventually be twice a week runs for the "Canadian", in each direction, from Toronto and Vancouver.

Looking at the table for accommodations and prices on the "Canadian", it seems that only 4 "cabins for one" (roomettes) on Manor sleeping cars are not nearly enough, especially considering the popularity of the Canadian. It also seems like the Canadian needs the Amtrak equivalent of a bedroom accommodation (maybe they do, I can't tell). The price tags also seem excessive. Do they get a lot of passengers taking "prestige class"?

Richard

 

[jiml]

Current Canadian consist departing Toronto on Sunday:

(3) VIA Rail The Canadian Train No 1 Departing Toronto Union Station - March 13, 2022 - YouTube

 

[Bob Dylan]

Current Canadian consist departing Toronto on Sunday:

(3) VIA Rail The Canadian Train No 1 Departing Toronto Union Station - March 13, 2022 - YouTube

Now there's a True LD Train Consist!

Compare that to the Sad Sack Consists that Amtrak is running on most of its LD Trains!

 

[zephyr17]

Now there's a True LD Train Consist!

Compare that to the Sad Sack Consists that Amtrak is running on most of its LD Trains!

At least VIA apparently maintained its 1955 Budd fleet in roadworthy condition, which Amtrak failed to do.

 

[MikefromCrete]

First of all, it's a once-a-week train. So total ridership comes nowhere close to even Amtrak's current five days a week LD schedule.

The fact that VIA is still running 70 year old cars is pitiful. Eventually even those Budds will wear out and become unsafe to operate. And VIA has no plans to replace them. Within 10 years there will be no Canadian.

 

[joelkfla]

The fact that VIA is still running 70 year old cars is pitiful.

I call it historic, or nostalgic. Is it any way to run a railroad? Maybe not, but I'm glad I got to experience it.

 

[Urban Sky]

First of all, it's a once-a-week train. So total ridership comes nowhere close to even Amtrak's current five days a week LD schedule.

The fact that VIA is still running 70 year old cars is pitiful. Eventually even those Budds will wear out and become unsafe to operate. And VIA has no plans to replace them. Within 10 years there will be no Canadian.

You literally were three mouse-clicks away from discovering what VIA's replacement plan is:

#1: Return to the "VIA Rail Canada Discussion" Sub-forum


#2: Select the appropriate thread


#3: Scroll down to the 3rd post


Answer:

They are preparing a Business Case and consulting potential suppliers, before they approach the government to start the procurement process:

 

[jis]

First of all, it's a once-a-week train. So total ridership comes nowhere close to even Amtrak's current five days a week LD schedule.

The fact that VIA is still running 70 year old cars is pitiful. Eventually even those Budds will wear out and become unsafe to operate. And VIA has no plans to replace them. Within 10 years there will be no Canadian.

Indeed, that may be the net outcome. But there is a plan that is maybe gelling, maybe not. There is another thread where this has been discussed and the conclusion has been all over the place ranging from "there will be no overnight trains" to "things should be OK". See:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/via-long-distance-fleet-replacement.81247/

 

[slasher-fun]

"As travel demand continues to progress, VIA Rail Canada is pursuing its gradual service resumption plan and is pleased to be returning most of its services across the country by the end of June 2022. "
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releas...ross-canada-in-time-for-summer-848033405.html

Date	Route	Service
April 29th*	The Canadian	2 full frequencies
June 3rd*	The Ocean	3 full frequencies
June 9th*	Québec City-Windsor corridor	Additional frequencies across the Corridor
June 10th*	Jasper-Prince Rupert	3 full frequencies
June 14th*	Sudbury-White River	3 full frequencies
June 29th*	Montreal-Senneterre	3 full frequencies
June 29th*	Montreal - Jonquière	3 full frequencies

(*Specific dates are subject to change slightly as VIA Rail is currently finalizing details, including access to the infrastructure.)

 

[Northwestern]

I just received an email, from VIA, regarding the new schedule for the VIA Canadian.

The new schedule is supposed to start after April 29.

Toronto to Vancouver

Departs Toronto on Sunday and Wednesday:

Leave TOR 0945
Arrive VAN 0800, 4 days later.

Vancouver to Toronto

Departs Vancouver on Monday and Friday

Leave VAN 1500
Arrive TOR 1429, 4 days later.

 

[zephyr17]

The times are the same as they have been.

The Friday departure from Vancouver and Wednesday departure from Toronto are the change.

PS, VIA's station codes for Vancouver and Toronto are VCVR and TRTO. Amtrak's are VAC and TWO. VAN is Amtrak's station code for Vancouver, WA, across the Columbia River from Portland, OR.

 

[Northwestern]

The times are the same as they have been.

The Friday departure from Vancouver and Wednesday departure from Toronto are the change.

PS, VIA's station codes for Vancouver and Toronto are VCVR and TRTO. Amtrak's are VAC and TWO. VAN is Amtrak's station code for Vancouver, WA, across the Columbia River from Portland, OR.

Yeah, you're right. Pardon my laziness in not looking up the correct codes for Toronto and Vancouver.

Well, I'm glad to see the Canadian running twice a week, in each direction. I can remember when it ran 3X/week in each direction. But, 2x a week is fine. I'm glad it is no longer once a week, eastbound and westbound , along with the craziness with Edmonton. I can, however, understand the Covid restrictions..

I have a friend who is of the belief the Canadian might be discontinued altogether. I can't believe that would happen, with the allure of a train ride through the Canadian Rockies. and the tourism dollars involved. If the Canadian goes under, what would take its place? Maybe an inexpensive version of the Rocky Mountaineer? I don't think that the words "inexpensive" and "Rocky Mountaineer" belong in the same sentence.