Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[afigg]

Can we just cancel the project, and walk away?

What good would that do? The funds have been committed and Amtrak needs the diners, sleepers, and bag-dorm cars.

 

[jis]

Can we just cancel the project, and walk away?

What good would that do?

It would be a nice way to show we are throwing a teenage tantrum!

 

[Triley]

Can we just cancel the project, and walk away?

What good would that do?

It would be a nice way to show we are throwing a teenage tantrum!

In that case..!

 

[PRR 60]

Can we just cancel the project, and walk away?

What good would that do?

It would be a nice way to show we are throwing a teenage tantrum!

At some point, someone managing the contract has to consider if the degree of non-performance by CAF has become material breech. Multi-years late, continual misinformation on progress, and (reportedly) poor quality of the delivered product makes me wonder to what point does Amtrak continue to throw good money after bad. The comments on Glassdoor, even assuming the propensity for those to be disgruntled employees, are still pretty damning.

Amtrak's bind is they really need those new cars, particularly the diners. If they pull the plug on CAF, they would have to collect whatever product is available, and move it to another vendor for completion. CAF would probably contest that, and then things could get strung out for months and months. The practical side is that Amtrak and CAF are probably stuck with each other, but Amtrak finally getting fed-up and giving CAF the boot after this mess would not be all that surprising.

 

[JohannFarley]

I would hope after all of this (and with Boardman's replacement coming) Amtrak would do no more business with CAF following this horrendous catastrophe of an ordeal. If they weren't so desperate for these cars I wouldn't have been surprised if they pulled the plug a long time ago, but alas not.

 

[enoreeman]

Too bad Budd is no longer in the rail car business, their stuff DID last.

 

[JohannFarley]

Too bad Budd is no longer in the rail car business, their stuff DID last.

Very true.

 

[Acela150]

Too bad Budd is no longer in the rail car business, their stuff DID last.

Amen!!!!!! The Amfleets are still kickin and the same with the Via Rail Budd fleet.

 

[AlanB]

There has been plenty of time and opportunities for testing and getting everyone acquainted. Time to get the damn things out and about, carrying passengers and earning revenue.

You can't test something that you don't have.

Exactly... Lets not get confused with 8400 being similar to the Viewliner IIs. Even if they were, there will still be differences. The Charger and ACS64s are similar, does that mean that crews don't need to get acquainted with the Charger? No. The only thing you are right about is that it's time to get them out in to revenue service.

Perhaps the shells, trucks, and exterior stuff is different between 8400 and the potential, future dinners is different. But the entire point of 8400 being dragged out of mothballs, sent to BG, and rebuilt inside; was to match the exact layout & equipment of the new upcoming dining cars. Any differences between 8400 and the new VL II dining cars should be very minimal to the OBS crews. What the OBS crews see in the new diners is supposed to be what they currently see in 8400; that's why 8400 is back on the rails to prove that the design works. Most OBS crews seemed quite happy with the layout and one SA that I spoke with who had worked 8400 in its original configuration, that most acknowledge was a disaster, was quite happy with the new layout. He thought it was a very good layout & design and was looking forward to the new VL II dining cars. And I've not heard that 8400's design was found lacking in any major way that would see changes of a nature that would require crews relearning things.

And since the same shells and trucks are already in use for the new baggage cars, there shouldn't be much difference for the operating crews either.

 

[Acela150]

I should add that this is turning into Hyundai Rotem and the Septa Silverliner V saga part deux. Just with Amtrak and CAF.

 

[StriderGDM]

Firstly, keep in mind while Glassdoor can be somewhat useful, in general sites like that tend to get the more disgruntled folks than the gruntled folks.

Secondly, we don't know many details. From other sources I'm hearing that some of this is on Amtrak, changes that they've asked for.

All around, it sucks, but I'd rather they get it right the first time, and not get them too early and have problems.

 

[west point]

What one has to wonder is what is any agency thinking of by doing business with CAF. If I was a taxpayer I would take my local agency to task for using CAF. Just citing Amtrak's troubles should wake up anyone trying to or doing business with CAF. BTW who are they doing business with at present or has done so in the past ?

Might be time for a class action lawsuit against CAF ?..

 

[JohannFarley]

What one has to wonder is what is any agency thinking of by doing business with CAF. If I was a taxpayer I would take my local agency to task for using CAF. Just citing Amtrak's troubles should wake up anyone trying to or doing business with CAF. BTW who are they doing business with at present or has done so in the past ?

Might be time for a class action lawsuit against CAF ?..

All of their current projects are listed on their website. You can see them all by using the "select a project" drop down menu at the bottom of the page for the Viewliner IIs here: http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=189

 

[battalion51]

There has been plenty of time and opportunities for testing and getting everyone acquainted. Time to get the damn things out and about, carrying passengers and earning revenue.

You can't test something that you don't have.

Exactly... Lets not get confused with 8400 being similar to the Viewliner IIs. Even if they were, there will still be differences. The Charger and ACS64s are similar, does that mean that crews don't need to get acquainted with the Charger? No. The only thing you are right about is that it's time to get them out in to revenue service.

And since the same shells and trucks are already in use for the new baggage cars, there shouldn't be much difference for the operating crews either.

Don't forget though the baggage cars lack a lot of things that the Diners, Sleepers, and Dorms will have: air conditioning, plumbing, electrical, power doors. There are some things that will be the same, but a lot of things that will be different. Mechanical and Operating Crews will need time to be oriented on them before they see revenue service.

 

[Acela150]

Firstly, keep in mind while Glassdoor can be somewhat useful, in general sites like that tend to get the more disgruntled folks than the gruntled folks.

Secondly, we don't know many details. From other sources I'm hearing that some of this is on Amtrak, changes that they've asked for.

All around, it sucks, but I'd rather they get it right the first time, and not get them too early and have problems.

I will put it this way. When Hyundai Rotem was given the Silverliner V contract and production was underway it wasn't uncommon to hear horror stories from the plant come out in the local papers. Many of the complaints were low wages to the point where employees were on food stamps and working that type of job shouldn't have been in need of them. Another topic was sexual harassment, language barriers between the US workers and the Korean based managers. The list goes on. At this point MBTA had already given them the contract for double decker cars and I have heard was very close to yanking it due to the major delays and stories coming from the plant. I'm going to guess they wish they did. They had their cars for a short period of time and then had issues. I have no idea about the Denver RTD contract. But I think it's fair to say that Rotem has burned many bridges here in the US between LA, Philly, and Boston having issues. I'm waiting on Denver to have something go wrong.

So what is being said on that page, I believe it.

 

[jis]

Amtrak's bind is they really need those new cars, particularly the diners. If they pull the plug on CAF, they would have to collect whatever product is available, and move it to another vendor for completion. CAF would probably contest that, and then things could get strung out for months and months. The practical side is that Amtrak and CAF are probably stuck with each other, but Amtrak finally getting fed-up and giving CAF the boot after this mess would not be all that surprising.

There certainly are scenarios which would justify canceling the order. But it is not clear that we are at that point. I would have expected that even the Bags would have been rejected outright if that were the case.

It is one thing if it is found that the shells manufactured are completely unsalvageable, and one has to start from square one, which would be an appropriate point to cancel the order collect penalties and move on taking the lumps. but if the basic cars are more or less sound with a bunch of detailed issues that can be fixed in a few months, then it would be foolish to cancel the order.

And frankly, beyond lack of knowledge of the nature of the problems, we also don't know for sure how much of the problem is of Amtrak's creation and how much is CAF's, and for that matter how much is the module manufacturer's - or some combination thereof probably. Given how the Acela fiasco unfolded I am not sure what to make of it this time. If the problems are traced back to basic mismanagement of contract by Amtrak, then it is not clear that terminating the order is exactly the wisest thing to do either.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Canceling the order at this point would be ridiculous. Diners and sleepers are needed ASAP. Finding a new builder and getting the cars built would take several years. Actually getting the diners seems likely within a month or so. Canceling the order when it was evident everything was going south would probably have been a good move.

The Glassdoor comments seem to come from disgruntled former employees. I wouldn't put a lot of faith in most of them. Everybody seems to like the benefits, however.

Yep, everybody wishes Budd was still around, but they're not. And nothing is ever going to bring them back.

 

[PVD]

Now that they are gone, everyone talks glowingly about Budd. They put together many great cars, but they had their share of losers also. The M1 order for the LIRR was a decent size order, and it had plenty of problems.

 

[bretton88]

Just about every agency has their problems. Heck, even the city of Toronto is suing Bombardier for how late they are in delivering the new streetcars and that's a local builder for them. Clunkers happen for various reasons.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

As great as Budd is, the remaining Diners are getting way too old. CAF needs to deliver those Diners completed and ready for service. Cancelling the order when Amtrak already has several of the baggage variants running isn't an option either.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Enough of amateur hour. I don't know why we didn't think of this before, but I know how to get the dining cars to Amtrak in a timelier fashion:

(Scroll down)

That should do it. (In case you can't tell, it is a view II diner)

 

[jis]

^** LOL **^

 

[PRR 60]

Back to the Viewliner II order. Off topic posts have been removed.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I don't know if this has been posted or not.

Per this website https://csanders429....cars-to-amtrak/

Quote

A revised timetable negotiated in December 2015 and subject to re-negotiation this year has pushed the final delivery date to March 2017.

At the bottom of that page is a link to the Feb 2016 OIG report.

 

[jis]

I am now wondering if they will manage to deliver a single Diner or Sleeper by the final delivery date.