Virginia Rail Info/Update

[Anderson]

Well, Kevin Page from the DRPT gave me a call. Here's what I got:

1) Train #6 is actually the Lynchburg train. No sixth Regional to RVR.

2) No 4:30 AM train to NFK after all. The plan is to extend a train to leave at 6:30 on weekends; the evening arrival times are interesting, too...on Saturday, you'd be able to leave NFK at 6:30, arrive DC around 10:30, and stay in DC until 7:00 at which point the last Regional of the day would be extended to NFK.

3) Apparently, Richmond could do something to establish a connection RVR-RVM, and the fact that they aren't is bugging DRPT given what Roanoke/Blacksburg are doing with their bus to Lynchburg. The $25 cab ride to downtown is an issue for intercity usefulness.

4) The $7.5 million figure is accurate. There's the capital charge on top of that (somewhat variable), and then the rest of the oversized amount is capital improvements being budgeted for as part of the plans. So in short, both numbers are sort of correct, but in a very real way, Thelma Drake's numbers were way off.

 

[Big Iron]

Looks like the competing toll road is gaining some traction, at least between Prince George County VA and Suffolk, VA. The proposed toll road will essentially parralel the NS tracks that Amtrak will use to get to Norfolk from Richmond.

Interesting funding facts also, looks like transit and rail is getting the mouse's share of the funding. See details below

Jon Cawley

Daily Press

Published June 20, 2012

U.S. 460 funding approved by Commonwealth Transportation Board

Gov. Bob McDonnell announced Wednesday that the Commonwealth Transportation Board approved $160 million in Virginia Transportation Infrastructure Bank low-interest loans to move forward two projects: an expansion of U.S. 460 from Suffolk to Petersburg and extension of the Gloucester Parkway and Pacific Boulevard, in Loudon county.

The U.S. 460 project will get $80 million of the funding to enhance the financing of the public/private partnership project that will create a new 55-mile four-lane highway south and parallel to the existing highway, according to a governor's office statement.

Financial close on the project is expected in December and construction could begin next year.

Governor McDonnell also announced Wednesday that the CTB approved $11.4 billion in statewide allocations for transportation improvement projects over the next six years.

Of the $11.4 billion, $9 billion will be used to fund roads, highways, bridges and debt service and $2.4 billion will go toward rail, transit and other improvements, the statement said.

Fiscal Year 2013 annual budgets for the Commonwealth Transportation Fund, Virginia Department of Transportation and the Department of Rail and Public Transportation were also approved Wednesday by the CTB.

The budget totals include:

Commonwealth Transportation Fund (VDOT, DRPT, airports and ports) - $4.7 billion

VDOT (construction, maintenance, administration, debt service and other costs) - $4.2 billion

DRPT (public transportation and commuter assistance programs, Dulles Corridor Metrorail Project, administration and other costs) - $509 million.

To view the final Six Year Improvement Plan and budgets, go to the Virginia Department of Transportation andDepartment of Rail and Public Transportation websites.

 

[Anderson]

$2.4 billion over 6 years does not sound like a bad allocation, especially in the current political climate. Mind you, I know a lot of that is likely getting swallowed up in the Dulles Metro project...but getting over 20% of the budget is more than you've got in most states.

By the way, I'm wondering about that toll road...if I'm not mistaken, isn't that the one that's supposed to have something like a $10-per-car bill (or something seemingly outsized like that)? What is it with McDonnell and sticker shock tolls these days?*

*I'm really thinking of the non-EZ pass $3-or-so "service fee" on the Downtown/Midtown tunnels on top of the $1.84 (and escalating over time) toll. Guess who's going to be shunpiking on I-64 or I-464 when he gets stuck going through that part of town? I'm sure not looking to fork over $5 when I get re-routed down there because they're cleaning the HRBT.**

**And it's not even really the tolls that bug me...it's that I don't want to be in the tunnel in the first place. I won't pay, in effect, $2 or $5, to deal with that tunnel...but I'd gladly drop $10, and probably a bit more, on a round trip fare from somewhere (decent) in Newport News/Hampton to Norfolk if it was on a train.

 

[cirdan]

Also worth noting: The third track bridge at Quantico (the $75m grant thing) is expected to do zero for travel time (though it will help capacity), but per this report it seems like there's about 20-25 minutes that can be shaved off of travel times without things getting too expensive.

Although I'm not familiar with this line, capacity often is speed because more capacity means less risk of delays and hence you need less recovey time. That means you can get shorter journey times without actually having to go faster.

 

[NW cannonball]

Thanks to all posters here for the useful information. I've been lurking here and reading this discussion because my daughter will be stationed with the NAVY in or about Newport News - Hampton Roads sometime soon and probably for a few years.

Planning to make several visits using Amtrak while she's there. I'd already learned that some of the automobile commutes can be bad at times.

The choice between the various airports and Amtrak options and public transit vs renting a car and fighting traffic on unfamliar roads -- lots to consider.

Thanks for the information

 

[Ryan]

Commuting down there SUCKS. Definitely advise her to live on the same side of the water as where she is stationed. Everyone I know that had to commute from NN through the tunnel to NOB absolutely hated life.

Logistically, it would be a lot easier for me (and probably most of the DC crowd) to be on the first train to Norfolk, not the first train from it.

Since it looks like there is some interest, once a firm date is announced I'll start a thread and we can make some plans.

 

[jb64]

Logistically, it would be a lot easier for me (and probably most of the DC crowd) to be on the first train to Norfolk, not the first train from it.

Yes, please. I am not interested in catching that 5 a.m. train from Norfolk. I like trains, but not much.

 

[Mackensen]

Commuting down there SUCKS. Definitely advise her to live on the same side of the water as where she is stationed. Everyone I know that had to commute from NN through the tunnel to NOB absolutely hated life.

Logistically, it would be a lot easier for me (and probably most of the DC crowd) to be on the first train to Norfolk, not the first train from it.

Since it looks like there is some interest, once a firm date is announced I'll start a thread and we can make some plans.

Absolutely. I'm up in PA but I'd do it for the laughs. Not as though new services start all that often .

 

[Big Iron]

$2.4 billion over 6 years does not sound like a bad allocation, especially in the current political climate. Mind you, I know a lot of that is likely getting swallowed up in the Dulles Metro project...but getting over 20% of the budget is more than you've got in most states.

By the way, I'm wondering about that toll road...if I'm not mistaken, isn't that the one that's supposed to have something like a $10-per-car bill (or something seemingly outsized like that)? What is it with McDonnell and sticker shock tolls these days?*

*I'm really thinking of the non-EZ pass $3-or-so "service fee" on the Downtown/Midtown tunnels on top of the $1.84 (and escalating over time) toll. Guess who's going to be shunpiking on I-64 or I-464 when he gets stuck going through that part of town? I'm sure not looking to fork over $5 when I get re-routed down there because they're cleaning the HRBT.**

**And it's not even really the tolls that bug me...it's that I don't want to be in the tunnel in the first place. I won't pay, in effect, $2 or $5, to deal with that tunnel...but I'd gladly drop $10, and probably a bit more, on a round trip fare from somewhere (decent) in Newport News/Hampton to Norfolk if it was on a train.

Regarding the toll cost, I cannot remember what I heard at a regional meeting but the cost might have been $14.00. I'm almost certain it is in the low double digits.

 

[Anderson]

$2.4 billion over 6 years does not sound like a bad allocation, especially in the current political climate. Mind you, I know a lot of that is likely getting swallowed up in the Dulles Metro project...but getting over 20% of the budget is more than you've got in most states.

By the way, I'm wondering about that toll road...if I'm not mistaken, isn't that the one that's supposed to have something like a $10-per-car bill (or something seemingly outsized like that)? What is it with McDonnell and sticker shock tolls these days?*

*I'm really thinking of the non-EZ pass $3-or-so "service fee" on the Downtown/Midtown tunnels on top of the $1.84 (and escalating over time) toll. Guess who's going to be shunpiking on I-64 or I-464 when he gets stuck going through that part of town? I'm sure not looking to fork over $5 when I get re-routed down there because they're cleaning the HRBT.**

**And it's not even really the tolls that bug me...it's that I don't want to be in the tunnel in the first place. I won't pay, in effect, $2 or $5, to deal with that tunnel...but I'd gladly drop $10, and probably a bit more, on a round trip fare from somewhere (decent) in Newport News/Hampton to Norfolk if it was on a train.

Regarding the toll cost, I cannot remember what I heard at a regional meeting but the cost might have been $14.00. I'm almost certain it is in the low double digits.

Yeah, $14 sounds familiar as well. I think that would make it per-mile more than the PA Turnpike (which is $35.55 end-to-end, or about $.099/mile; assuming Norfolk to Petersburg (longer than the whole project, I suspect) at $14 this would come out to about $.182/mile, or about twice the Turnpike.

Edit: Just another point...low double digits sounds right, and I think that's the car toll. What is the truck toll going to be on this thing?

 

[afigg]

$2.4 billion over 6 years does not sound like a bad allocation, especially in the current political climate. Mind you, I know a lot of that is likely getting swallowed up in the Dulles Metro project...but getting over 20% of the budget is more than you've got in most states.

Looking at the FY13 SYIP budget document, the $2.4 billion over 6 years is transit funding is going to many things: WMATA, Dulles Extension ($50 million FY13), VRE, county and town bus services throughout the state, freight rail, and passenger rail. Covers both operating subsidies and capital grants. For FY13, if I am reading it correctly, the allocation is $442 million. This is a 6 year planning document, but I would regard only FY13 and FY14 as close to reliably set. The spending in the outlier years can be changed by the next Virginia Governor. But, yes, compared to most other states, VA is providing decent amount of state funds for passenger rail projects.

In the 5 year capital needs FY14-FY18, the big ticket items that are not intercity passenger rail, are WMATA Capital Improvement Program (ranging from $96 to $120 million a year), Columbia Pike Streetcar through FY17, Route 1 Corridor Streetcar with the major expenditure years in FY17 & FY18, VRE, many bus purchases.

The FY13 budget shows $114.6 million previously allocated to the Norfolk extension, so that ate up a lot of the funding the past several FYs. Other items of note are:

-a FY13 $275K study for Passenger service between Lynchburg and Roanoke to NS. My guess is that study is to formalize and lay out costs on what improvements NS wants to extend the Regionals to Roanoke.

-$32.5 million total for VRE Third track Spotsylvania Extension which is south of Fredericksburg. Even if the third track from Powell's Creek to Arkendale $75 million HSIPR project is stuck in CSX-FRA limbo, there will be a segment of third track on RF&P which may ease congestion for Amtrak a bit.

-In the FY14 to FY18 years, a total of $171.8 million is allocated for Capacity Improvements for Expanded City Rail with $20.9 million in FY14 (zero for FY13, likely because the Norfolk and Dulles Metro extensions are consuming the FY13 available rail funds). Presumably these are the working funds for CSX and NS track and station improvements for future improvements: extension to Roanoke, increased service frequencies to Norfolk, towards restoring service through RVM, etc. If there is a future federal HSIPR grant program, my guess is these funds could be used for the 20% state matching contribution. A $150 million of state funds over 5 years could bring in $600 million of federal funding in that scenario.

-There is a line item in the rail section for Total State Funds Unobligated: FY13 = $15.2 million, FY14 = $5.4 million, gets larger further out with FY17 = $35.9 million for example. Not sure on how to interpret it, but those could be funds that the DRPT has available to shift to TBD rail projects.

-VA is providing $4.9 million towards a $7 million Buckingham Branch RR project for FY13 and FY14 described as the North Mountain Siding Project in the Culpepper and Staunton districts. I have yet not found specifics on what this project does.

 

[Anderson]

I think the "unobligated" section for the later years is probably at least partly a fudge factor to deal with how much inflation estimates can be off.

I am glad to see the streetcars and whatnot getting funded. If nothing else, those should at least start triggering some positive feedback for rail ridership in those areas. Ditto the Metro extensions (even if Dulles is involved), since that's going to link even more of NoVA into WAS/ALX.

As to the LYH-ROA study, that being funded for next FY is big, since as I understand it the bus service is basically maxed out in its present state. Hopefully that study may cover a two-frequency or three-frequency option? (I posit this possibility because most of these studies seem to assume multiple frequencies, either in the near-term or eventually.)

 

[Thirdrail7]

This is an older thread but since it is all encompassing and I'm not sure a new thread is warranted, I'm placing this tidbit here:

To boost Amtrak ridership, state mulls cutting ticket prices within Virginia, D.C.

A few brief fair use quotes will show why the the personnel at Virginia DPRT "get it."

 


By Ned Oliver | Virginia Mercury | December 5, 2018 at 5:27 PM EST - Updated December 5 at 5:46 PM






State transit officials are considering cutting the price of Amtrak tickets for trips within Virginia in a bid to increase ridership.



A market study estimated that a 15 percent fare reduction would lure an estimated 51,000 additional riders onto trains every year — a roughly 7 percent increase. The move would cost the state $683,000 annually, which represents about 1.3 percent of what the state collects in ticket revenues.



A consultant called the financial impact “absolutely modest,” particularly in light of transit officials’ goals of maximizing ridership over ticket revenue in a bid to get more cars off the road.

I love it. Let's hear this worthwhile goal again:

A consultant called the financial impact “absolutely modest,” particularly in light of transit officials’ goals of maximizing ridership over ticket revenue in a bid to get more cars off the road.

Yes, indeed! There should always be a an eye for ridership. It can justify the subsidy.

They are willing to spend the money to accomplish their goals and this quote below is a perfect example of Virginia understanding what other states and Amtrak don't:

DRPT officials presented the ideas to members of the Commonwealth Transportation Board’s rail subcommittee Tuesday. Some members responded favorably to the concept, with some pushing for deeper discounts during months with lower ridership, noting the state’s costs are fixed regardless of ridership.

“There’s a lot of people who don’t even think about using this as a transportation mode,” said Hampton Roads District board member John Malbon. “During a time when you have the capacity, why don’t you just fill the trains up and it’s a new customer?”

Roanoke District board member Ray Smoot concurred.

“The train’s running anyway,” he said

[/QUOTE]
This was the exact point I was referring to when I mentioned Amtrak "right sizing" the trains. Use your marketing to stimulate ridership. Use fares to introduce your product to new customers and show them your stuff. The, you can use the increased numbers to lobby for new equipment and funding.

You have to love Virginia. They get it!!!!!!!

 

[Thirdrail7]

Virginia's investment rampage continues as they look to the future.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/virginias-public-rail-strategy-calls-for-funding-private-rail-fixes/2019/03/02/9eba0eb4-3c35-11e9-a2cd-307b06d0257b_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.1cd4a508fe28

“Virginia invested $119 million in CSX’s Acca Yard in Richmond, and, in turn, the state got a new Amtrak service to Norfolk as well as speed improvements between Richmond and Hampton Roads,” Smith said.

Virginia also invested $101 million in additional upgrades, mostly by Norfolk Southern between Norfolk and Petersburg. These upgrades were also made by CSX between Petersburg and Richmond, which helped lead to the launch of the first Amtrak train from Norfolk in 2012 and Monday’s addition of a second Norfolk train, as well as the planned launch of a third in 2022, Smith said.

Virginia is also funding $636 million in “rail capacity improvements in Northern Virginia for CSX, and in turn Virginia expects to run up to 23 passenger trains daily,” in addition to increases in Virginia Railway Express commuter rail service, Smith said.

Much of the Northern Virginia work is being done as part of major road and rail improvements known as the Atlantic Gateway. One part of the far-reaching project will include construction of an eight-mile stretch of track “on CSX’s freight corridor from the Franconia/Springfield VRE station to the Occoquan River in Fairfax County allowing for additional VRE service,” as well as more passenger trains, according to state plans.

The Atlantic Gateway effort also includes some preparatory work on the proposed Long Bridge expansion across the Potomac into Washington. District and federal officials are exploring a $1.3 billion plan to double the capacity of the current two-track bridge, which is described as a major impediment to ambitious plans to increase rail travel through Virginia and up and down the East Coast

Virginia has their eyes on the long goal.

 

[Acela150]

I'm glad to see that the State of VA has come to INVEST in passenger rail. Invest is a term that is almost never used when it comes to passenger rail or high speed rail in this country. It's normally "Amtrak loses money". But.. We invest in our highways and skies. I'm truly glad to see that Virginia has come to realize what passenger rail can do for their state. 

On a side note,  I saw a news piece from Monday's launch of a second train from Norfolk. The number of passengers that bought tickets for the new 9AM departure from Norfolk was at 57. Which is a good number to start with. 

 

[user 13416]

On a side note,  I saw a news piece from Monday's launch of a second train from Norfolk. The number of passengers that bought tickets for the new 9AM departure from Norfolk was at 57. Which is a good number to start with. 

I wonder what the numbers looked like for the 6am departure, and how many of those 57 would have taken the 6am train had the 9am train not been available?

Another side note: The 9am train still does not offer any connections when booking on the website or mobile app :angry: My summer travel plans aren't final yet so I haven't tried to call a human to book a connecting train.

 

[Acela150]

I wonder what the numbers looked like for the 6am departure, and how many of those 57 would have taken the 6am train had the 9am train not been available?

Another side note: The 9am train still does not offer any connections when booking on the website or mobile app :angry: My summer travel plans aren't final yet so I haven't tried to call a human to book a connecting train.

If the 9am wasn't a choice they may have hopped on the bus to NPN. 

As to your dilemma with connections, have you tried the mutli city tool?  

 

[user 13416]

As to your dilemma with connections, have you tried the mutli city tool?  

When you book with the multi-city tool:

Connections are not guaranteed. and you will be responsible for ensuring that you book trains that give you enough time to make connections. Missed connections are the passenger's responsibility.

However, as of 10pm tonight (Wednesday 3/6) the 9am train finally has bookable connections, at least in Philly.

Bookings on the 9am departure must be strong, because every 9am departure in June and July are $99 more than the 6:15am departure (NFK-PHL).

If the 9am wasn't a choice they may have hopped on the bus to NPN.

The bus to NPN left 35 minutes after the 6:15am train. They probably drove/got a ride/Uber'd to NPN later in the morning.

 

[Acela150]

When you book with the multi-city tool:

However, as of 10pm tonight (Wednesday 3/6) the 9am train finally has bookable connections, at least in Philly.

If it's a long enough period I don't see why missing a connection would be an issue. For instance if you book 94 from NFK to NYP and you want to connect to ALB. Say you book 241. It's about a 2 hour layover. So that is a good connection that Amtrak would guarantee of 94 was booked from say WAS or PHL. 

 

[cpotisch]

When you book with the multi-city tool:

However, as of 10pm tonight (Wednesday 3/6) the 9am train finally has bookable connections, at least in Philly.

If it's a long enough period I don't see why missing a connection would be an issue. For instance if you book 94 from NFK to NYP and you want to connect to ALB. Say you book 241. It's about a 2 hour layover. So that is a good connection that Amtrak would guarantee of 94 was booked from say WAS or PHL. 

Nope. If you book it as a multi-city, connections flat out aren't guaranteed, even if that particular connection could be booked normally. I don't totally understand why, but that's the rule.