What if sleeper passengers had the option of meals?

[Tumbleweed]

What if AMTRAK offered a sleeper fare structure that reduced the price for a sleeper by half of the average cost of meals and the passenger was responsible for his/her own eats....either bringing their own, or purchasing them in the snack bar or the diner? It would give a person a little more independence and a chance to save some money....and AMTRAK would save the cost of serving those who chose not to eat in the diner, while still gaining half the meal price ....

 

[Paulus]

I would prefer that Amtrak kept the already low fares the same while going back to the pre-1980s practice of having everyone, sleeper or not, pay for their meals. The last thing we should be doing is discounting fares for sleepers in any way.

 

[me_little_me]

Then many people would choose to bring their own food; the diners would operate at more of a loss; the diners would be removed to save money; fewer people would want to travel and have to bring their own toaster ovens and microwaves; Amtrak would lose more passengers; long distance travel would disappear; this forum would close up shop; I would be sad; the world would come to an end.

 

[Swimmingcat]

I've wondered this myself -- I generally like having meals included, I then order things I'd normally not if I was paying cash (such as bacon on the burger, juice w/breakfast, and the desserts) (then I have to burn it off by swimming extra! . I've seen pics of the old Calif Zephyr (private rail days) where there was a prominent cash register, I believe in the diner -- but I don't know if that meant that all pax paid for meals, or just in coach (from the previous comment, that might have been the norm on private railroads?). Sleeper service is also called "First Class" -- so meals included fits the description.

I would think however, if Amtrak did do this, they'd have to lower the sleeper fares to compensate for this loss (but, then they wouldn't be having to "pay" for meals). You wonder how it work out revenue-wise for them? Or perhaps offer the present structure (meals includ) and a "Accomodations only" structure (I don't see why not?). Sort of how my college dorm was like!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Well the problem with that rule is I suspect very few people would choose to pay diner prices, especially after their first meal.

 

[Blackwolf]

In today's traveler climate, BAD IDEA. If you want to travel on a budget, you go via Coach. If you want to travel in your own private compartment in First Class, you get the meals included and pay the fares as they are charged now. The current system works, and any improvements would best be fulfilled with an intermediate class (like the Business Class plan for the CS, which has been frustratingly and conspicuously absent for a project supposedly being implemented :angry2: ) that has creature comforts but reduced amenities such as full dining car fare included.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

It would be hard to justify charging somebody over $800 for a room for two nights (higher than many upper-middle-income properties in big cities) and then asking them to pay for that food.

I understand that sleepers cross-Rockies are comparatively cheap, but in today's climate people want all-inclusiveness. Why do you think cruises and those cookie-cutter resorts are so popular?

Not to be a broken record but once again I wouldn't pay $800 for a room and then be asked to pay $200 eating subpar food or pay $100 and haul two-days worth of food on board. And that food price is per head. Now unless you now make the room $400 cheaper (that's two people) then I'm not interested.

 

[railiner]

Back in the pre Amtrak days, meals were never included in First Class travel.

I think the current system is better. This way the diner is guaranteed to have a certain number of patrons to help pay their costs....

The Autotrain diner has it even better in that regard, since even the coach passengers have their meals included. There should be no waste with that system. Unfortunately, only the Autotrain can do that, since all passengers travel the entire route.

Perhaps Amtrak can come up with a "meal and beverage package plan" for coach passengers.....they could have the option to prepay for all their meals enroute at a discounted price....it could be beneficial, maybe worth a trial run?

 

[zepherdude]

So much more paperwork and procedures to develop. I would not expect to fly a long haul flight in first class without a meal. Would not wish to pay more for my bedroom then fork out yet more bucks for food. In coach it would be a huge addition to the fare for meals, just my humble thoughts.

 

[jphjaxfl]

In pre Amtrak days, the private Railroads such as Santa Fe, Union Pacific, Burlington/Great Northern/Northern Pacific had meal tickets available for their longer runs to avoid needing lots of cash. For example, I rode the Super Chief in 1970 from Chicago to Los Angeles and I bought a meal ticket for $20 which included 2 dinners, 2 breakfasts and 1 lunch. The meal ticket included mostly anything on the menu except there was a small extra charge for the steak dinner. For dinner, it included soup or appetizer + salad+entree+dessert. Beverages included were coffee,tea or milk. Cocktails or wine were paid for in addition. Railroads like the Santa Fe accepted credit cards. I took the Texas Chief from Chicago to Houston in early 1971 and also purchased the meal ticket which included 4 meals and was less expensive. The meal tickets were great for passengers and the crew liked them too since there was less cash to handle. The dining car steward punched the ticket which was same size as the travel coupon at the end of each meal. I only saw meal tickets on the Western Railroads - not sure if the New York to Florida trains had a similar feature.

 

[railiner]

In pre Amtrak days, the private Railroads such as Santa Fe, Union Pacific, Burlington/Great Northern/Northern Pacific had meal tickets available for their longer runs to avoid needing lots of cash. For example, I rode the Super Chief in 1970 from Chicago to Los Angeles and I bought a meal ticket for $20 which included 2 dinners, 2 breakfasts and 1 lunch. The meal ticket included mostly anything on the menu except there was a small extra charge for the steak dinner. For dinner, it included soup or appetizer + salad+entree+dessert. Beverages included were coffee,tea or milk. Cocktails or wine were paid for in addition. Railroads like the Santa Fe accepted credit cards. I took the Texas Chief from Chicago to Houston in early 1971 and also purchased the meal ticket which included 4 meals and was less expensive. The meal tickets were great for passengers and the crew liked them too since there was less cash to handle. The dining car steward punched the ticket which was same size as the travel coupon at the end of each meal. I only saw meal tickets on the Western Railroads - not sure if the New York to Florida trains had a similar feature.

While I don't quite remember that....it is sort of what I had in mind for Amtrak to try. It would be a substantial additional cost above coach fares....but if one were going to purchase all their meals aboard anyway, then it would be a savings, and perhaps encourage more to patronize the diner....

 

[zephyr17]

Amtrak did not include meals in the sleepers until the mid-1980s, and then the raised the prices pretty much exactly to price of 2 meals per economy bedroom (now roomette) for however many meals were served in the run. They were not "complimentary" as they liked to advertise at the time.

I was ticked then, and remain a bit ticked, because I usually travel alone, and I was (and am) effectively buying an extra meal.

I used the "All-In-One" meal ticket on the Super Chief, too. I think that is a good option.

 

[Shanghai]

I think that if the meals were not included in the cost of your sleeper room, over time it would

be the demise of the dining service as we know today. The cost of the food and perhaps one

of the staff would not save a great deal of cost. The cost of maintenance & depreciation of

the dining car would continue along with the normal operating costs. I don't believe that

sleeper passengers would be happy eating at the snack bar and would likely encourage

some passengers to bring their own food on board. In addition to unwanted odors, the

cleaning cost would rise in order to keep the cars clean for the new passengers. I think

it is a bad idea.

 

[Guest]

In today's traveler climate, BAD IDEA. If you want to travel on a budget, you go via Coach. If you want to travel in your own private compartment in First Class, you get the meals included and pay the fares as they are charged now.

I have to agree.

The last thing anyone should want, is for Amtrak to follow the airline model of eliminating one amenity after another. Sleeper Class is basically First Class for LD trains, and with such, you must get some really nice amenities which includes meals.

If someone wants to save a buck, go Coach, and leave the Sleeper Class alone.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I like the Meal Ticket Idea (for Coach Passengers) also! With e-ticketing it can already be on the Computer so there is No Additional Paper or Cost involved in Processing said "Tickets!" The LSA would just Scan the e-ticket like the Conductor does and your order could go to the Kitchen for the Chef to Prepare! No Cash, No Credit Card Processing, EZ-PZ!!!

 

[jis]

May I remind everyone that the meals were included with First Class tickets to save the Dining Cars. You can rest assured that if that changes, the Dining Cars will be gone within a couple of years. So be careful what you wish for. They will most likely get converted to Buffet/Cafe/Lounge service with no sit down meal service, with perhaps two (if we are lucky) SAs providing convection oven heated fare at best. They will resemble the service provided on the LSL Boston Section except there will be no at table service, if they continue to exist at all. That is what was considered as the other alternative when the last time Dining Car Service was facing extinction. So we've been there and done that once. Maybe this time the result will be different and worse than the last time.

 

[Swimmingcat]

These are all great considerations for keeping it as it is now! Many of these I didn't consider, but as 'ALC' remarks, people DO like inclusivenes (to a point). We all know what the airlines have done (charge for items formerly included); some have experimented with on-board meals avail for purchase. Or the fact that you pay for bags now save for a few carriers.

I think that 'jis', 'Shanghai', and 'railiner' have hit it on the head re: diner service -- if people stop eating in them, they might get taken off. I have a PBS special DVD on the "Daylight" (South Pacific LA - SF train); by the 1960's -- one of the SP executives rode it, and observed that (regarding the diner), "They're all bringing their own lunches now, no one's eating in the diner, there's no need for one" (Paraphrased). That was one reason I think that they put on those 'automat' cars.

And I definitely agree with the posters that state: With First Class, you expect amenities, meals are one of those. I like it now that when I board sleeper, I can eat in the diner & not really be on a budget; I just ensure that I have enough small bills to leave tips with. If anything, I think the idea of a 'meal ticket' that Coach passengers could purchase which would offer a discount for dining car meals would be a good option.

"You can't please all of the people all the time" -- some people want to pay the fare & have many amenities included (IOW, just be done with it), others say "why should I pay for something I'm not going to use [or utilize]?, I'll pay as I go".

 

[Paulus]

With airlines, let's keep in mind that their free meals consist of one meal (maybe two on an oceanic flight) with no added labor cost for serving. Very different from six meals and multiple dedicated staff at $41.19/hour including benefits and employer paid taxes.

 

[tonys96]

With airlines, let's keep in mind that their free meals consist of one meal (maybe two on an oceanic flight) with no added labor cost for serving. Very different from six meals and multiple dedicated staff at $41.19/hour including benefits and employer paid taxes.

Where did you get the $41.19/hr figure?

 

[Paulus]

With airlines, let's keep in mind that their free meals consist of one meal (maybe two on an oceanic flight) with no added labor cost for serving. Very different from six meals and multiple dedicated staff at $41.19/hour including benefits and employer paid taxes.

Where did you get the $41.19/hr figure?

FOOD AND BEVERAGE SERVICE: Potential Opportunities to Reduce Losses

 

[EB_OBS]

I find it intriguing how, whenever Amtrak wages are quoted, it's always including benefits AND employer paid taxes.

It's funny, I don't recall consistently seeing this practice when discussing wages in other industries or occupations. The straight hourly wage is what's mostly quoted.

People like to quote Amtrak wages as such so as to intentionally confuse the masses who aren't paying attention or who aren't smart enough to recognize that $41.19 is NOT what Amtrak employee's take-home pay is. That report exactly states Amtrak's wage is $25.54.

I especially like this part;

b
Hourly wage for Downeaster, Alaska Railroad, and
Rocky Mountaineer is the average of the lowest and
highest wage rates of onboard employees. For Amtr
ak, the hourly wage is the
weighted average of three
rates in effect in FY 2012: those starting on July
1, 2011, January 1, 2012, and July 1, 2012. We then
averaged the highest wage position (lead service atte
ndant) and lowest wage position (service attendant).

There is typically only one or two LSAs on a train and the dining car LSA is the higher-paid one. The cafe LSA earns less. The other 7 or 8 employees on the train are TAs and SAs and thus paid the lower amount. They aren't making $25.00/hr.

Additionally, given the high retirement rate going on right now and over the last several years, there are a lot more new employees earning 75%-90% of max wage than there are ones at 100%. BTW it takes 10 years for most OBS employees to reach 100%. Typical GROSS yearly salary is therefore $50k or less.

I like this part too;

Downeaster Alaska Rocky Amtrak
Railroad Mountaineer
Annual salary, plus benefits $21,600 $22,410 $31,748 $88,970

Those salaries are a JOKE. They don't even warrant serious discussion

 

[Paulus]

I find it intriguing how, whenever Amtrak wages are quoted, it's always including benefits AND employer paid taxes.

It's funny, I don't recall consistently seeing this practice when discussing wages in other industries or occupations. The straight hourly wage is what's mostly quoted.

Eh, if you're working with employer costs, it's preferable, imho, to quote the total employer payroll costs. This is especially the case for Amtrak where the employer paid payroll taxes are significantly higher than they are for non-railroad employers.

That said, I think they actually forgot to apply employer paid taxes to the non-Amtrak employers in that.

 

[EB_OBS]

I would agree with you that it is and would be preferable to quote total payroll cost. However that is not the case most of the time. When it's wanted to intentionally mislead and muddy the issue with inaccuracies the higher of the two is usually only quoted with intentional bias.

That said, I think they actually forgot to apply employer paid taxes to the non-Amtrak employers in that.

Wow! What a surprise. You sure they simply forgot?

 

[EB_OBS]

Sorry, I don't mean to be a grumpy-butt. I've been up all night and all day.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

So Amtrak labor cost is higher than the seasonal Alaska trains, and the part time Rocky Mts train. Downeaster numbers are with out the total cost of taxes and benefits.

So this report means nothing.

Right?